[ROCKMAN]

I have to go along with Cid at least on this one point: if we are supply any support to the "rebels" fighting the Syrian army then the US is "at war" with Syria be it declared or not and whether we have troops on the ground or not. Same situation with Turkey if they've been supply support to ISIS. And if the US is attacking ISIS from the air then technically we are "at war" with the Turks. If Country A is supplying support to Group B that is fighting the forces of Group C then Country A is fighting a war against Group C. No different then giving a weapon to your neighbor knowing he's going to shoot his wife with it: you're an accomplish...plain and simple you're guilty. You just don't have the guts to get blood directly on your hands.

[ROCKMAN]

A somewhat long but detailed explanation as to why the Turkish prez might be interested in starting a war with someone: helps to keep his natives distracted from the problems at home: The author is a Reuters Breakingviews guest columnist. The opinions expressed are his own.

"Turkey’s economy is threatened on many fronts. A row with Russia and the prospect of the Federal Reserve raising rates have coincided with President Tayyip Erdogan’s increasing politicisation of the economy and bad governance. This could prove a toxic cocktail given the private sector’s high debt. Turkey’s cost of capital is rising. The government’s 10-year dollar bond yield was 5 percent on Dec. 4, up from 4.7 percent a year ago and 4.1 percent just before Turkey shot down a Russian jet last month. The government isn’t to blame for global investors falling out of love with emerging markets in general or, indeed, for what Turkey claims was a Russian invasion of its air space. But many of the risks Turkey is facing are self-inflicted. Russia’s muscular response to the shooting down of a Russian bomber jet in November already threatens to create economic costs for Turkey. Among the raft of economic sanctions already announced, banning charter flights to the country and other moves to dissuade tourism will be especially damaging. About 3.3 million Russian tourists visited Turkey last year. What’s more, Russian President Vladimir Putin seems intent on finding other ways of exacting vengeance. The Russian president may increase support for Kurdish militia fighting inside Syria, something Ankara has warned against. This would infuriate Erdogan whose main goal in Syria is to prevent the emergence of a Kurdish enclave on Turkey’s border. The Turkish president’s Syria strategy is already looking sick, as the West is focusing on fighting Islamic State and not giving priority to Erdogan’s other goal – bringing down the country’s leader, Bashar al-Assad.

Meanwhile, Erdogan has failed to prevent renewed fighting with the Kurdistan Workers’ Party (PKK) inside Turkey, although the Kurdish militia group is also responsible. He abandoned peace talks with the group earlier this year, after which violence flared up. The Turkish president benefited from the breakdown in the peace talks because the instability helped his party win a majority in November’s election after it failed to secure one in an earlier poll in June. But the renewed violence creates a strong sense that the country is fighting on multiple fronts, diminishing its appeal to investors. As if this were not bad enough, Erdogan has increasingly politicised the economy. After taking power in 2002, he followed prescriptions laid down by the International Monetary Fund in the wake of its last financial crisis. But in recent years, Erdogan has undermined the independence of the central bank by opposing higher interest rates, so much so that the country has little credibility for fighting inflation which hit 8.1 percent last month. Meanwhile, the Turkish lira has dropped more than a fifth against the U.S. dollar in the past year, putting pressure on companies that have borrowed in hard currency. Since the November election, there have been further worrying signs. Ali Babacan, who had been deputy prime minister in charge of the economy and was seen by investors as a safe pair of hands, wasn’t reappointed. His replacement, Mehmet Simsek, is well regarded but not considered a heavyweight. What’s more, Erdogan’s son-in-law, Berat Albayrak, was made energy minister.

The Turkish president is also becoming increasingly authoritarian. The editor of a leading newspaper was put in jail last month for publishing an article that Erdogan deemed espionage, even though there has yet to be a trial to test the claim. It’s not just freedom of the press that has been curtailed. So has the independence of the judiciary, while corruption is widespread, according to the European Commission. Instability and weak rule of law is bad for business. There has also been capital flight. Turkey is vulnerable because it has been consistently running a big current account deficit – forecast to be 4.5 percent of GDP this year by the IMF – and needs foreign funds to plug the gap. The economy is still expected to grow at about 3 percent largely because construction and domestic consumption have held up. However, this depends on credit – with households borrowing to buy homes and developers borrowing to build them. Housing investment is fuelled by rising property prices, and pushes them still higher. But if they stop going up, the debt that has backed purchases could weigh heavily on the economy."

[Subjectivist]

Countries involved in the Syrian peace process are set to meet in New York on December 18, but the talks may hinge on efforts to unite Syrian opposition groups in the coming days, US secretary of state John Kerry says.

Russia, the United States, European and Middle Eastern countries agreed last month on a two-year timeline leading to Syrian national elections, but left many questions unresolved, most notably the fate of Syrian president Bashar al-Assad.

The countries involved in the talks, which also include Saudi Arabia, Iran and Turkey, laid out a plan including formal talks between the government and opposition from January 1.

To achieve that timeline, Saudi Arabia is hosting a conference this week to try to unite Syria's divided rebel and opposition groups, who are trying to forge a common platform to be able to negotiate with the Syrian government.

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2015-12-09/k ... 18/7012250

[Cid_Yama]

There will be NO diplomatic solution to Syria. Now that Russia has moved into Syria for the long haul, and maybe northern Iraq in the near future (at the invitation of Iraq), Russia will militarily determine the outcome in Syria, unilaterally. (with guarantees to Israel)

And unless we want WWIII, there is little we can do about it.

And don't tell me Russia agreed to the talks.

The situation has changed. Russia has decided to intervene militarily and fully. They are prepared to stay until they achieve THEIR outcome in Syria through military means.

Israel, which has told the West repeatedly that they want Assad to remain in power, only to be ignored, has signed on with Russia and are flying sorties together.

It's a brand new world, boys and girls, and the West was too slow and wishy-washy to get the job done.

All we will do now is whine about it.

[Cid_Yama]

A Russian missile boat "forced" a Turkish-flagged commercial vessel away from a caravan towing a pair of off-shore Russian gas extraction facilities in the Black Sea, state company Chernomorneftegaz said Monday.

The report came a day after a similar incident in the Aegean Sea, as tensions between Russia and Turkey remain tense after Turkey shot down a Russian jet over the Syrian border in November.

The Black Sea caravan was towing the units away from the Odessa gas field and into Russian territorial waters when the Turkish vessel began following it and then blocked its path, the company said.

The Turkish vessel did not respond to radio calls, which led to the Russian naval missile boat and a border control patrol boat forcing the vessel to change course, the statement said, without elaborating.

On Sunday, a Russian warship in the Aegean Sea fired warning shots near a Turkish fishing vessel to ward off a possible collision, Russia‘s Defence Ministry said at the time.

The warship had to fire because the fishing boat was about 600 metres away and would not respond to radio or visual contacts, the ministry said.

link

[Subjectivist]

Seems like someone is playing a very dangerous game, like they want Russia to sink one of their boats and then claim it was like their shoot down of the Russian plane.

[Whitefang]

https://www.rt.com/news/325825-sarin-gas-syria-turkey/

Plenty evidence of yet another false flag thing, Irak WMD.....Syria chemical shit....
Some journalists get 45 years in prison for exposing state secrets, treason.
What a sad mess.

The parliamentarian said that now he feels like there is a witch hunt against him, after he confronted the justice minister. Bozdag, according to Erdem denied only the part that he wanted to get notified about the operations beforehand.

Furthermore, Erdem argues that the West purposely blamed the regime of Bashar Assad for the August 2013 attacks and used it as part of the pretext to make US military intervention in Syria possible. The MP said that evidence in Adana’s case, according to his judgment, proves that IS was responsible.

“For example the chemical attack in Ghouta. Remember. It was claimed that the regime forces were behind it. This attack was conducted just days before the sarin operation in Turkey. It’s a high probability that this attack was carried out with those basic materials shipped through Turkey. It is said the regime forces are responsible but the indictment says it’s ISIS. UN inspectors went to the site but they couldn’t find any evidence. But in this indictment, we’ve found the evidence. We know who used the sarin gas, and our government knows it too,” he said.

At the same time, Erdem also accused the West and Europe in particular for providing “basic materials” to create such a powerful chemical weapon.

“All basic materials are purchased from Europe. Western institutions should question themselves about these relations. Western sources know very well who carried out the sarin gas attack in Syria. They know these people, they know who these people are working with, they know that these people are working for Al-Qaeda. I think is Westerns are hypocrats about the situation,” he concluded.

[ROCKMAN]

Again we're back to the questions of Rules of Engagement. So OK...it was just a Turk fishing boat getting close to a Russian warship...what's the danger?

On the morning of Thursday, 12 October 2000, USS Cole was docked in Aden harbor for a routine fuel stop. Around 11:18 local time, a small fiberglass boat carrying explosives and two suicide bombers approached the port side of the destroyer and exploded, creating a 40-by-60-foot gash in the ship's port side. Former CIA intelligence officer Robert Finke said the blast appeared to be caused by explosives molded into a shaped charge against the hull of the boat. Around 400 to 700 pounds of explosive were used. Seventeen sailors were killed and 39 were injured in the blast. The attack was the deadliest against a U.S. naval vessel since the Iraqi attack on the USS Stark on 17 May 1987. The asymmetric warfare attack was organized and directed by the terrorist organization al-Qaeda. In June 2001, an al-Qaeda recruitment video featuring Osama bin Laden boasted about the attack and encouraged similar attacks. Al-Qaeda had previously attempted a similar but less publicized attack on the U.S. Navy destroyer USS The Sullivans while in port at Aden on 3 January 2000, as a part of the 2000 millennium attack plots. The plan was to load a boat full of explosives and explode it near The Sullivans. However, the boat was so overladen that it sank, forcing the attack to be abandoned.

Rules of engagement - The destroyer's rules of engagement, as approved by the Pentagon, kept its guards from firing upon the small boat (which was not known to be loaded with explosives) as it neared them without first obtaining permission from the Cole 's captain or another officer. Petty Officer John Washak said that right after the blast, a senior chief petty officer ordered him to turn an M-60 machine gun on the Cole '​s fantail away from a second small boat approaching. "With blood still on my face", he said, he was told: "That's the rules of engagement: no shooting unless we're shot at." He added, "In the military, it's like we're trained to hesitate now. If somebody had seen something wrong and shot, he probably would have been court-martialed". Petty Officer Jennifer Kudrick said that if the sentries had fired on the suicide craft "we would have gotten in more trouble for shooting two foreigners than losing seventeen American sailors".

So would the Turks send a fishing boat to blow up a Russian warship? Probably not. Would ISIS? In a heart beat. And how difficult would it be for ISIS to do so? Given the Turks have said that thousands of ISIS oil tank trucks have made it thru their country undetected (if you believe them) how difficult for ISIS to move one truck with explosives?

After the Russian passenger jet bomb if I were a Russian captain I would blow the sh*t* out of any vessel that refused to back off.

[Plantagenet]

Look at this from Turkey's point of view---just 100 years ago THEY were the Caliphate.

Turkey dreams of restoring their former glory and uniting all the Moslems and regaining their former territory, just like Russia dreams of recreating the glories of the USSR and uniting all the ethnic Russians and regaining Crimea, Ukraine, Latvia, Estonia, Finland, Etc.

[Cog]

Russian captain was probably drunk, and was awakened because a fishing boat, which he could have easily gone around, decided to stay on the fish. He panicked and fired some shells and went back to his drunken stupor.

[ROCKMAN]

Cog - Or he was following the Rules of Engagement as set by Putin. Which makes me think Mr. P might be softening up some. After what happened to USS Cole I would have blown his ass out of the water. If you approach a warship under the circumstance going on in the region and don’t respond to multiple contact efforts I would kill your ass. But maybe that just me…a cold blooded Texan. LOL

In this age of rocket warfare and IED's field commanders have seconds to make life and death decisions. Just ask the British admiral that lost a very expensive heavy cruiser to a relatively cheap Exocet missile in the Falkland’s conflict.

[SeaGypsy]

Look at this from Turkey's point of view---just 100 years ago THEY were the Caliphate.

Turkey dreams of restoring their former glory and uniting all the Moslems and regaining their former territory, just like Russia dreams of recreating the glories of the USSR and uniting all the ethnic Russians and regaining Crimea, Ukraine, Latvia, Estonia, Finland, Etc.

Shiver up the spine.... Brrr

(Map of the 100 years war mark 2)

[Keith_McClary]

I don't know what the Turkish Islamic Union is supposed to be.

Do you have a map of this "34-nation alliance" ?

On Monday, US President Barack Obama called on Muslim nations to do more in the fight against the so-called Islamic State. As if on cue, a few hours later, Saudi Arabia announced the creation of a 34-nation alliance to fight terrorism. The US has welcomed the move.
http://www.pri.org/stories/2015-12-15/q ... -terrorism

[Keith_McClary]

Islamic Military Alliance

[dissident]

http://qha.com.ua/en/politics/turkey-st ... ek/135375/

In the event of war with Turkey, the Russian Federation can be occupied within seven days. Such a statement was made by Turkish Foreign Minister Mevlut Cavusoglu on Turkish television, AWD News German newspaper reports.

Obama needs to keep his dogs on a leash or the neocon wet dream of nuclear Armageddon will come true.

[Sixstrings]

Obama needs to keep his dogs on a leash or the neocon wet dream of nuclear Armageddon will come true.

Ya know what diss? The danger was never "John McCain" or "Bush" types. Because at least they DID lead NATO and our allies.

The dangerous thing is actually leftist US presidents, that do not lead, and then NATO members like Turkey are off doing their own thing.

So yeah, I agree with you, it's just that Obama isn't in control of any of our allies.

That'll all change in 13 months. We'll either have Clinton, who is markedly better at this stuff than Obama is, or we'll have Trump who is Putin friendly, or we'll have Rubio or Bush that will lead the allies and prevent problems like what's going on with Turkey.

P.S. Putin and Erdogan have a pissing match going on right now and both ought to cut it out.

The whole thing is dangerous, this back and forth tit for tat with Turkey.

This is why we actually need (in my opinion) strong leadership in the US, it would have been better to have an establishment republican in charge that would be handling everything over there. When we don't handle things, it otherwise spins out of control.

One positive thing to remember is that despite lack of leadership in the current WH, if things get serious there's very good leadership in the Pentagon and they'd get involved, Obama WH would listen to them, and certainly the rest of NATO doesn't want problems between Russia and Turkey.

Here's an interesting irony: Turkey being in NATO is actually PROTECTION for Russia. Because that constrains Turkey. If there were no NATO, then maybe war would break out with Russia and one of its neighbors (conceivably). The nature of NATO prevents the members from going off and doing anything too much on their own, in an offensive way that's a risk to the rest of NATO.

[Sixstrings]

Some recent Russia / Turkey news:

Russia fires on Turkish ship to 'avoid collision' in Aegean Sea
http://www.cnn.com/2015/12/13/europe/russia-turkey-ship-collision/

Inside Putin’s Cold War with Turkey
http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2015/12/20/inside-putin-s-cold-war-with-turkey.html

Moscow says Turkey poses ‘real threat’ to Russia
https://www.rt.com/news/326124-ankara-relations-positive-forecasts/

Turkey says it will not recognize Russian invasion of Crimea
http://www.todayszaman.com/diplomacy_turkey-says-it-will-not-recognize-russian-invasion-of-crimea_407433.html

Russia-Turkey Crisis: 27 Russian Ships Blocked After Moscow Detains Turkish Vessels Amid Escalating Tensions

Turkey blocked 27 Russian ships from sailing toward the Mediterranean and Black seas this week allegedly for failing to meet the necessary sailing criteria amid escalating tension between the two countries. The move followed a similar decision by Russia, which is currently holding eight Turkish vessels in its ports after Turkey shot down a Russian warplane, the Daily Sabah in Istanbul reported Wednesday.
http://www.ibtimes.com/russia-turkey-crisis-27-russian-ships-blocked-after-moscow-detains-turkish-vessels-2231946

Cossacks in Russia burn effigy of Obama and the American and Turkish flags:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UgzDtrdI8Vc

Turkish troops move out of northern Iraq after Obama appeal for calm
http://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/dec/20/turkish-troops-move-out-of-northern-iraq-after-obama-appeal-for-calm

(that's about the tensions between Turkey and Iraq, what a clustermess over there)

I didn't realize how bad this was getting, with Russia and Turkey. None of this is even on our news over here. One can blame Obama for not being involved and not leading, but it's actually not the USA's fault -- we've just been generally isolationist and not wanting to do anything about anything.

Russian Media Explodes With Vulgar and Racist Anti-Obama Rhetoric

As in America, the Russian public is largely informed by TV shows and other media, which never miss an opportunity to remind viewers that the current occupant of the White House is the world’s biggest villain—but not one to be taken too seriously.

Putin is strong. Obama is weak. Putin is a doer. Obama is a talker. Putin fixes. Obama ruins. Putin is a leader. Obama isn’t.

...

In Russian, “schmoe” resembles the Yiddish “schmuck,” but with much stronger negative connotations.

“Obama schmoe” has recently become an all-pervading part of Russian pop culture. There are “Obama schmoe” bumper stickers (in addition to others, like “Obama is bad” and “Obama is the devil”), and there are T-shirts with pictures of Mr. Putin whispering into the ear of the embarrassed American President, “Obama, you are a schmoe.”

There are satellite photographs of the slogan in white paint on the runway of the Russian air base in Syrian Latakia. There, it serves as a background for Russian warplanes.



...

Last week’s disgustingly racist scandal finally broke the patience of the U.S. Embassy in Moscow, which had been silent despite all of the vulgar anti-Obama assaults in Russia. The high-end Bakhetle supermarket chain displayed cutting boards styled as the 2016 calendar that, according to Chinese horoscopes, will be “the year of monkey.”

“It is disgusting to see that such blatant racism has a place on Russian store shelves,” Will Stevens, the spokesperson for the U.S. embassy in Moscow wrote on his Twitter.
http://observer.com/2015/12/vulgar-and-racist-anti-obama-rhetoric-inundates-russian-pop-culture/

[Sixstrings]

Turkey open to talks with Russia to defuse tensions: Davutoglu

“We are ready to talk to Russia and to exchange every type of opinion. But we will never allow it [Russia] to dictate anything to us,” Davutoglu said at a meeting organized by Turkey’s Foreign Economic Relations Board (DEIK) in Istanbul on Saturday.

The top Turkish diplomat further criticized Russia’s package of economic sanctions against Turkey in retaliation for the shooting down of a Russian Sukhoi Su-24M bomber in Syria as well as President Vladimir Putin’s recent attitude against Turkey.

“We should not allow our relations to be destroyed over economic sanctions, while we have been exerting efforts to resolve this political crisis with Russia,” Davutoglu stated.

The Turkish government does not view these sanctions helpful at all, he added.

Davutoglu also condemned Putin’s recent anti-Turkey opinion, stating that “it did not suit a statesman.”

On December 17, Putin once again condemned Turkey for downing the Russian military aircraft, and said it is now “practically impossible” to overcome tensions with Turkey.
http://www.presstv.ir/Detail/2015/12/20/442455/Turkey-Russia-Davutoglu-Putin-Russian-bomber-Syria-Airspace

[Sixstrings]

Another way to look at things: the world always said it didn't want america in charge of everything all the time, right?

Isn't that what Russia has always said too? Well, everyone got their wish, we're just over here by Canada and Mexico ignoring everything.

This is a problem between Russia and Turkey, seems like.

Just another way to think of it, is there a law at the UN or something that says the US is responsible and answerable for everything? Maybe it's not our business?

[Keith_McClary]

None of this is even on our news over here.

Duh.

“It is disgusting to see that such blatant racism has a place on Russian store shelves,”

Is there a difference between portraying President Obama as a chimp and former President George W. Bush as a simian?

That question was occasioned by Marilyn Davenport, the Orange County, Calif. Republican politician who recently forwarded an email with a birther joke that included a Photoshopped image of President Obama's face superimposed over that of a baby chimp.

Davenport defended herself by observing that some cartoonists depicted Bush as an ape, so what's the big deal?

Not only was Bush sometimes portrayed as a chimp but his presidency spawned the The Smirking Chimp blog.