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Is the PUTINOBAMA PAKT coming after Paris?!

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Re: Is the PUTINOBAMA PAKT coming after Paris?!

Unread postby davep » Tue 17 Nov 2015, 11:45:01

Interestingly, Vlad has just said that the French are going to work with the Russians in Syria.

Given the US is sharing intel with the French, I guess this is a politically expedient way of sharing it with the Russians without doing so directly.
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Re: Is the PUTINOBAMA PAKT coming after Paris?!

Unread postby dissident » Tue 17 Nov 2015, 22:19:56

https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=p ... aLmhKy0TOI

This is the sort of congenital idiots that run America. Graham is a neocon and thus a slimeball.
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Re: Is the PUTINOBAMA PAKT coming after Paris?!

Unread postby Sixstrings » Wed 18 Nov 2015, 00:08:18

dissident wrote:https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=4aLmhKy0TOI

This is the sort of congenital idiots that run America. Graham is a neocon and thus a slimeball.


How do you conclude so much from a 49 second clip, out of a multi hour committee session?

It's too bad "Russia Insider" had it edit it that way and cut the video off just as Graham was about to respond to Dempsey. I would have liked to have heard his answer.
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Re: Is the PUTINOBAMA PAKT coming after Paris?!

Unread postby Sixstrings » Wed 18 Nov 2015, 00:20:11

davep wrote:That and the fact the US/UK had been actively supporting them due to their fixation with overthrowing Assad (which is why nothing happened during 18 months of coalition bombardment).


I don't understand the Assad thing, precisely why everyone in that whole region is so set on it that "Assad must go." From Trukey to Israel to KSA and Jordan and all the countries over there, they all say "Assad must go."

The only part of it I get is the geopolitical thing, with shia Iran on one side and then the sunni world on the other. Shia is opposed to sunni. And then, Israel is opposed to shia Iran because it's Iran that's been screwing with them for so many years (funding hezbollah, etc.).

So that's how it is, all the sunni nations are against Iran and then Israel is big time against Iran.

Iran is allied with Assad. Iran is also doing proxy wars and pushing out, in the region. So naturally, the sunni states wouldn't be thrilled about a Russia-Iran-Assad bloc and here comes the Iranian and Russian armies marching through the ME together.

Putin tries to navigate some spot in the middle, he doesn't want just tied to Iran, for a while there he was thinking about becoming hegemon over the entire region -- Iran, and the sunni states, sort of replacing the USA.

But then he just had a lot of problems with that. They invited a saudi delegation to Moscow and Lavrov was overheard saying "fucking morons" on an open mic.

So.. I don't think the whole ME will ever go over to Russia, it just can't work out with how much Russia is linked with Iran.

But KSA and others have been spending more on Russian military gear and a bit less on American. So there's some rising influence there, for Russia.

IN CONCLUSION -- I don't know all the complexities of why everyone is so much against Assad, but they just are.

Russia is primarily hooked up with Iran and Assad, so it's easy for Russia to say "assad stays." But the US is allied to all the countries that say "assad must go," and there's really no way the US can force them to accept assad, depending on how deep these issues run.

edit: and having said all the above, I'll just point out..

That Iran has done a lot to Israel over the years, with their support of Hezbollah and the rocket attacks. And Iran has always been, and continues to be, the most bellicose and anti-Israel and greatest threat to Israel.

Iran has also done a lot of bad things to the US, over many years.

Yet as bad as Iran is, the sunni ISIS are worse. So. Okay, if Obama won't handle it then then I don't care if Iran wants to handle it and if Russia wants to handle it and I don't care if Russia winds up with the middle east. That ISIS stuff is worse than Iran, they've got to be defeated.

If our leadership in the US thought the geopolitical ramifications of Russia getting control of the ME were serious, then Obama should have taken Assad out back when he was about to, and we also needed to send troops in and handle things.

If you want to hang on to a region, you have to keep troops there, that's just how it goes.

So I just wanted to add all that nuance, the whole region is "enemies of my enemy" and bad people and some are worse than others, etc., and then in the big picture it is a concern about Russia if it's anti-western and got control of all the oil and then becomes a problem and cold war concerns.

My HOPE would be that Russia really will not be an enemey of the West in the future, that they won't ever actually hybrid war in the Baltics and that Crimea was it and they won't do that again. And then okay, fine, Russia can have all the middle east and if they can handle that mess then Russia deserves to be hegemon.

Long story short, I'm glad Russia's fighting ISIS. Should have been the USA but Obama didn't do it, but if O won't, then at lest Putin is.
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Re: Is the PUTINOBAMA PAKT coming after Paris?!

Unread postby SeaGypsy » Wed 18 Nov 2015, 00:42:12

Sixstrings wrote:
dissident wrote:https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=4aLmhKy0TOI

This is the sort of congenital idiots that run America. Graham is a neocon and thus a slimeball.


How do you conclude so much from a 49 second clip, out of a multi hour committee session?

It's too bad "Russia Insider" had it edit it that way and cut the video off just as Graham was about to respond to Dempsey. I would have liked to have heard his answer.

Those 49 seconds are more than enough. What a twat.
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Re: Is the PUTINOBAMA PAKT coming after Paris?!

Unread postby Sixstrings » Wed 18 Nov 2015, 01:00:25

SeaGypsy wrote:Those 49 seconds are more than enough. What a twat.


What did he say that's so wrong. I read the news, it's true that Turkey and Jordan and KSA and all those countries over there would put in troops for a coalition if "Assad goes" too.

So that's what Graham was saying, how is that wrong?

And yeah, there's things that go on with these countries that aren't good. But Russia's allies do a lot of bad things too, look at Iran and what a threat to Israel it is and Iran funds hezbollah that rocket attacks Israeli people all the time.

edit: I watched the video again. There's not even a disagreement there, BOTH are right, Dempsey and Graham. With Dempsey clearly being more bothered by support coming out of the sunni states, toward ISIS, whereas Graham says that's a thing of the past and they don't do that anymore.

OVERALL, Graham just wants to defeat ISIS. He knows that the sunni GOVERNMENTS have all said they'll join a boots on the ground coalition, if "Assad goes." So that's all Graham is pushing for, he just wants to defeat ISIS.

THE BIG PICTURE SITUATION WITH ALL THIS is just that what the US REALLY NEEDED TO DO is address the geopolitical concerns the region has, as well. Obama needed to take Assad out back when he almost did it. Then instead of deals with Iran halfway allying with Iran, Obama should have kept the US in opposition to Iran. Because the Iranian government hates us anyway, and you can't trust them anyway, and Iran is a major threat to our most CORE ally -- Israel.

This all got screwd up in the ME, because pretty much Obama started going along with Russia and Iran.

And maybe that's a good idea or not, it's honestly a tossup, maybe we don't want or need these sunni state allies anymore.

Except for the fact of Israel.. we can never abandon Israel.

And except for the fact of just making sure a big war never breaks out of there in the ME.. by pulling out, and Russia involved in the ME instead, it may not stay as stable as when things were clear and the US was hegemon on one side and Russia was friendly with Iran.

And then lastly, the only reason the US has always been in the ME besides just oil deals is the simple cold war imperative to keep the USSR from having control over the ME, and therefore the oil. If the Soviets got control of the ME, then that would have been a major advantage and was considered a threat to the West.

So guys like Graham and McCain, Jeb Bush and Rubio and all the conservative establishment, worry about that even now --just generally, they you can't let Russia have control of the ME.

Me, personally just as a citizen and voter, I just say if Russia can show they can handle the ME and CONTROL that place and they're willing to put troops in there and they can defeat ISIS and they can start doing all this sh*t American GI's have had to do so long -- then HAVE IT and THANK YOU RUSSIA for taking this pain-in-the-ass over for us.

If Russia turned hostile toward us though ten or twenty years from now, then has the ME and all that oil too, then that's trouble.. but right now ISIS is a bigger worry and Obama just won't handle it, so I'm not knocking Russia because someone has to handle the middle east if the USA won't.
Last edited by Sixstrings on Wed 18 Nov 2015, 01:26:34, edited 5 times in total.
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Re: Is the PUTINOBAMA PAKT coming after Paris?!

Unread postby sidzepp » Wed 18 Nov 2015, 01:14:52

The existing chaos in the Middle East dates back to the failed policy of the Bush administration in 2002. We sent the best armed forces into combat against a demoralized Iraqi Army that could probably have been defeated by the Chicago PD and everyone cheered at the quick and easy conquest of the Iraqis. But we showed our ignorance in our attempt to assist a suppressed and ill prepared group of Shias and Kurds attempt to create a government. We cast out the Sunnis, brought in foreign contractors to do jobs that could have been done by the people of Iraq and created a country of anarchy and violence. The ISIS phenomenon grew out of this chaos and even if we are successful against them there will be other groups that take their place. We can put boots on the ground and in all probability decimate ISIS, but down the road there will be new groups to take their place because we will grow complacent. Our naïve and half-hearted involvement in the region will cause continual conflict.

A second thread on this forum is the relationship with Russia. They are at this time mired in financial crisis with the decline of oil and gas revenues. If we do not work with them they will more than likely feel threatened and do what they do best when caged and roar out. It is one thing when a minor country threatens security but the Russians have ten thousand nukes and that is a dangerous trump card.
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Re: Is the PUTINOBAMA PAKT coming after Paris?!

Unread postby Sixstrings » Wed 18 Nov 2015, 01:46:44

sidzepp wrote:We cast out the Sunnis, brought in foreign contractors to do jobs that could have been done by the people of Iraq and created a country of anarchy and violence. The ISIS phenomenon grew out of this chaos and even if we are successful against them there will be other groups that take their place.


Other than the war itself, the big mistakes were:

* firing all the bathists in the government and police and military. Suddenly unemployed and used to be in power and angry and armed, they just joined groups that later became ISIS.

* The US should have just written their darn constitution and set their government up, what wound up happening is the sunnis weren't represented.

* We let Iran get control of the government, which we didn't need to, we were occupying the place. US was too much of the good guy nice guy and just "set up demoracy" and "let people vote." But that doesn't work out, we needed to do it like with japan after WWII -- remake their society, and write their constitution and then STAY THERE and supervise it for 20 years and then 30 years later you've still got troops there but it's also turned into a good ally and a help, instead of a problem.

It's the same thing Putin did in Chechnya. He leveled it, but then he remade it as he saw fit and so that it wouldn't be a problem again.

Despite the above, by the end of it, actually Iraq was under control. We shouldn't have pulled out. We could have just left a residual force and none of this would have happened.

The sad truth is that the various groups in Iraq had come to be dependent on US rule and it was actually working out -- when we left, they just fell into civil war.

And now look what's happened -- total regional conflagration, and ISIS Iraq attacking the whole darn world, and now Russia is in the ME too.

Would have been simpler and a lot easier if Obama hadn't totally left, in the first place. Now the problem Obama hands to the next president is MASSIVE.

And all of O's foreign policy seems to be about just counting down the clock, and handing the problem to someone else.
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Re: Is the PUTINOBAMA PAKT coming after Paris?!

Unread postby Sixstrings » Wed 18 Nov 2015, 02:16:39

It's funny, that "Russia Insider" youtube channel not only criticizes Lindsay Graham but they also say Obama is just all "empty talk" and won't fight ISIS:

More empty talk from Obama on Paris attacks: We will 'bring these... terrorists to justice'
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SNyNS0wroO0


Lindsay Graham really does want to do something, yet Russia Insider criticizes him.

Then they criticize Obama too, for not wanting to do anything.
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Re: Is the PUTINOBAMA PAKT coming after Paris?!

Unread postby Cog » Wed 18 Nov 2015, 03:22:58

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Re: Is the PUTINOBAMA PAKT coming after Paris?!

Unread postby SeaGypsy » Wed 18 Nov 2015, 03:45:57

6 doesn't get it that his confusion is symbolic of the confusion which has created much of the current situation in the MENA. All the candidate positions he ascribes to would lead to the US being bogged down in the ME for decades, as he admits, calling it something else- occupation. Continuing to ignore the fact the USA never actually controlled Iraq, never even controlled Baghdad, never secured a surrender. How the hell he thinks the US will ever control Iraq-Syria is beyond me.

I would go so far as to call Graham & Florina et al- Evil representatives of the MIC. Ultimately their policies are 100% sure to fail, while costing another trillion or so, most of which will land in the pockets of the MIC, to no good end. (Not to mention the endless body count).
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Re: Is the PUTINOBAMA PAKT coming after Paris?!

Unread postby M_B_S » Wed 18 Nov 2015, 10:24:58

THE PAKT IS COMING

http://www.aljazeera.com/news/2015/11/h ... 17279.html

Hollande calls for grand coalition to defeat ISIL
French president wants to extend state of emergency and vows to escalate the ongoing air campaign in Syria.
17 Nov 2015 11:13 GMT | Europe, France, ISIL, War & Conflict

******************************

A new "Ära" is born but it will not be a new Kaliphat but a RUS+USA PAKT again against the most brutal Tyranny in the 21st century.

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ISIS Kaputt!
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Re: Is the PUTINOBAMA PAKT coming after Paris?!

Unread postby Sixstrings » Thu 19 Nov 2015, 02:10:57

M_B_S wrote:ISIS Kaputt!


Amen to that.

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Re: Is the PUTINOBAMA PAKT coming after Paris?!

Unread postby ennui2 » Sat 21 Nov 2015, 21:42:48

Sixstrings wrote:Or President John McCain, I can 100% guarantee you none of this would have happened if John McCain were in charge.


Bomb, bomb, Iran and Sarah Palin? What a joke.
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Re: Is the PUTINOBAMA PAKT coming after Paris?!

Unread postby ennui2 » Sat 21 Nov 2015, 21:43:46

Cog wrote:Image


You and Planty should get a room where you can exchange Obama cartoons all night long.

BTW, this is a peak oil site and I think most of here are not down with mocking people for riding bikes. Sorry it doesn't look macho enough for you.
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