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Green legislation mainly helps the affluent

General discussions of the systemic, societal and civilisational effects of depletion.

Green legislation mainly helps the affluent

Unread postby C8 » Mon 07 Sep 2015, 12:55:13

Govt. interference essentially hurts the poor the most- how could it not? Laws are lobbied for and voted on by the wealthy and the upper middle class (lobbyist and lawmakers). The "green" movement is an upper income white constituency- this point is very critical.

Most of the "green" and anti-drought initiatives have helped the affluent more than the average citizen- check out this article

Dan Walters: California shows class bias in green subsidies

Tesla, which produces sexy, scary-fast and very pricey battery-powered cars, has a handy website guide to the “incentives” its customers may claim.

Buying a Tesla earns one a $7,500 federal income tax credit, plus rebates and credits from states, including California, which offers a “$2,500 rebate and carpool lane access” to electric car owners.

Obviously, those who can afford Teslas are a very small portion of the state’s residents. Obviously, too, the $10,000 rebates may not be major factors in their decisions to buy.

But it illustrates a dirty little secret of the wide array of tax credits, rebates and other “incentives” that federal and state governments have offered in the name of reducing emissions of carbon and other pollutants: They mostly go to the affluent.

That’s not just a hunch. It’s revealed in research from the University of California’s prestigious Haas School of Business Energy Institute, whose new report on the “distributional effects of U.S. clean energy tax credits” is co-authored by Severin Borenstein, the state’s leading energy authority.

The research was confined to federal subsidies, but would apply to those offered by the state as well.

It found that since 2006, more than $18 billion in federal income tax credits has been given to American households for weatherizing their homes, installing solar panels, buying hybrid and electric vehicles “and other clean energy investments.”

“We find that these tax expenditures have gone predominantly to higher-income Americans,” the report says. “The bottom three income quintiles have received about 10 percent of all credits, while the top quintile received about 60 percent.”

The report also reveals that the “most extreme” example is the subsidy offered to electric vehicle buyers, with those in the top quintile receiving about 90 percent of the credits.

The state’s extra Tesla subsidy – money from all taxpayers and ratepayers – makes the class bias even worse.

Earlier this year, state Sen. Ted Gaines, R-Roseville, proposed to eliminate state tax credits for cars costing more than $40,000, saying, “It’s hard for the average Californian to understand why someone buying a $100,000 car should get a rebate.”

Gaines’ proposal went nowhere, ignored by the Legislature’s majority Democrats, who often rail about the state’s growing income disparities.

The class differential on the benefit side of the “decarbonization” campaign is mirrored on the cost side, inadvertently or otherwise.

Anti-carbon decrees have already pushed Californians’ electric power rates higher, with a disproportionate impact on those at the lower rungs of the economic ladder, particularly in interior regions where air conditioning is a must.

Increasing electric power from “renewable” sources such as wind and solar to 50 percent by 2030, the current goal of Gov. Jerry Brown and other political figures, will doubtless push those rates even higher.

There will be consumer costs, too, of reducing oil-based auto fuel by half, perhaps by making that fuel more expensive.

Tesla-driving residents of affluent coastal communities can easily absorb such burdens – perhaps by applying their generous tax credits.

But what about those not in the “top quintile,” including the 23.4 percent of Californians who the Census Bureau says are poor now, largely due to the state’s ultra-high cost of living?

Read more here: http://www.sacbee.com/news/politics-gov ... rylink=cpy
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Re: Green legislation mainly helps the affluent

Unread postby kublikhan » Mon 07 Sep 2015, 14:00:11

Because a tesla rebate is obviously the same thing as water conservation. :( The drought does not help anyone. Anti-drought initiatives are an attempt to make the best of a bad situation. What exactly are you proposing? That we just ignore the problem until the reservoirs are bone dry?
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Re: Green legislation mainly helps the affluent

Unread postby Subjectivist » Mon 07 Sep 2015, 14:26:35

Energy subsidies in the form of tax breaks are always regressive, only the upper middle class or above can get the loans to build the systems to get the tax breaks.

However, it still helps offset CO2 emissions so using the poor people card is missing the whole point. The poor will suffer the most from climate changes, they have little insurance to deal with bad situations and moving would be a major hardship.
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Re: Green legislation mainly helps the affluent

Unread postby Outcast_Searcher » Mon 07 Sep 2015, 14:39:44

Subjectivist wrote:Energy subsidies in the form of tax breaks are always regressive, only the upper middle class or above can get the loans to build the systems to get the tax breaks.

However, it still helps offset CO2 emissions so using the poor people card is missing the whole point. The poor will suffer the most from climate changes, they have little insurance to deal with bad situations and moving would be a major hardship.

ANY subsidy in the form of income tax breaks is regressive in the US, since the US income tax system is set up so that overall, the more income you have the more income tax you pay, and the higher rates you pay (the super-rich who can buy tax avoidance schemes excepted, of course).

This is the biggest problem some of my far left friends have with the whole "green" movement -- they pretend like it doesn't have a disproportionate impact on the poor, even as the greens push legislation which, for example, significantly raises utility bills for everyone.

So there is an irony. Higher prices for energy incent people to conserve. But it is harder on the poor to raise prices. So one way to offset that would be energy tax credits for the poor. But then, of course, you remove the incentive for them to conserve.
Given the track record of the perma-doomer blogs, I wouldn't bet a fast crash doomer's money on their predictions.
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Re: Green legislation mainly helps the affluent

Unread postby kublikhan » Mon 07 Sep 2015, 16:16:21

Outcast_Searcher wrote:So there is an irony. Higher prices for energy incent people to conserve. But it is harder on the poor to raise prices. So one way to offset that would be energy tax credits for the poor. But then, of course, you remove the incentive for them to conserve.
Leave the higher prices for energy and just give the poor a general tax credit(EITC or whatever). They can spend it however they wish. They will be disincentivized to spend it on energy intensive goods and services because of the high prices. Energy is conserved, poor see their lost incomes offset.
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Re: Green legislation mainly helps the affluent

Unread postby Outcast_Searcher » Mon 07 Sep 2015, 16:36:47

kublikhan wrote:
Outcast_Searcher wrote:So there is an irony. Higher prices for energy incent people to conserve. But it is harder on the poor to raise prices. So one way to offset that would be energy tax credits for the poor. But then, of course, you remove the incentive for them to conserve.
Leave the higher prices for energy and just give the poor a general tax credit(EITC or whatever). They can spend it however they wish. They will be disincentivized to spend it on energy intensive goods and services because of the high prices. Energy is conserved, poor see their lost incomes offset.

And so they, for example, leave the thermostat at 80 degrees in the winter. Is that really how we should utilize tax credits while budget deficits remain huge? I'm not so sure. (They'd be more disincentivized to spend it on energy intensive goods if they were more educated -- but that's most likely why they're poor anyway -- so I disagree with that assumption).

If we really think that decisions like mandating more solar power for electric utilities is a "good" idea even though it raises electric rates -- then I'd prefer we just do that, and admit that electric bills are harder on the poor. It's not like we don't already have essentially no income taxes for the poor, the earned income tax credit, all sorts of subsidies for the poor including the ACA, and of course, the recent move to arbitrarily raise the minimum wage, and damn the consequences to businesses. Since we don't have unlimited money, at SOME point, we need to say "enough".
Given the track record of the perma-doomer blogs, I wouldn't bet a fast crash doomer's money on their predictions.
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Re: Green legislation mainly helps the affluent

Unread postby kublikhan » Mon 07 Sep 2015, 16:47:59

Outcast_Searcher wrote:And so they, for example, leave the thermostat at 80 degrees in the winter. Is that really how we should utilize tax credits while budget deficits remain huge? I'm not so sure. (They'd be more disincentivized to spend it on energy intensive goods if they were more educated -- but that's most likely why they're poor anyway -- so I disagree with that assumption).
So in your opinion a poor person would be unable to figure out that leaving the thermostat at 80 in winter is what led to their huge gas bill? I disagree with that assumption. And even if you right, the first thing they are going to do is call the gas company and complain about their bill. The representatives on the other end of the line are trained to give energy saving tips to lower bills. So they would then be able to figure out that leaving the thermostat at 80 is no longer such a good idea.
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Re: Green legislation mainly helps the affluent

Unread postby Outcast_Searcher » Mon 07 Sep 2015, 16:56:07

kublikhan wrote:
Outcast_Searcher wrote:And so they, for example, leave the thermostat at 80 degrees in the winter. Is that really how we should utilize tax credits while budget deficits remain huge? I'm not so sure. (They'd be more disincentivized to spend it on energy intensive goods if they were more educated -- but that's most likely why they're poor anyway -- so I disagree with that assumption).
So in your opinion a poor person would be unable to figure out that leaving the thermostat at 80 in winter is what led to their huge gas bill? I disagree with that assumption. And even if you right, the first thing they are going to do is call the gas company and complain about their bill. The representatives on the other end of the line are trained to give energy saving tips to lower bills. So they would then be able to figure out that leaving the thermostat at 80 is no longer such a good idea.

I would simply argue that they lack the self discipline and the education not to make better decisions, which is the primary reason they're poor in the first place. I've seen it scores of times personally, and there are endless documentaries, both from left and right wing sources, which clearly show this.

So clearly throwing endless money at that problem isn't a solution. Now, I'm all for offering more educational opportunities (with mandatory acceptable attendance and academic performance as a basic condition of remaining in the program -- and as a taxpayer I'd be happy to pay for such programs), but somehow neither side of the political aisle seems willing to do something REAL to actually solve the problem. Better to advocate throwing more money at it, and gathering votes from the Democratic base along the way.
Given the track record of the perma-doomer blogs, I wouldn't bet a fast crash doomer's money on their predictions.
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Re: Green legislation mainly helps the affluent

Unread postby kublikhan » Mon 07 Sep 2015, 17:16:25

Outcast_Searcher wrote:I would simply argue that they lack the self discipline and the education not to make better decisions, which is the primary reason they're poor in the first place. I've seen it scores of times personally, and there are endless documentaries, both from left and right wing sources, which clearly show this.
Did these documentaries look at energy consumption, the topic of our conversation? This study suggests low income households consume less energy than their richer counterparts:

In a recently published study, "Utility-Financed Low-Income Energy Conservation: Winning for Everyone," one of the Energy Policy and the Poor series, the National Consumer Law Center, Inc. (NCLC) studied the relationship between energy use and failure to pay among low-income families relative to the nation as a whole. The study showed that the inability of a family to pay its energy bill is not, as many have thought, strictly the result of high energy bills, or of energy "wastage." In fact, low-income households generally use about 20% less energy than the non-poor; this conclusion is valid for the various fuels (electricity, fuel oil, and natural gas) used for different household tasks.

Community-based low-income weatherization programs throughout the country have been working against the general trend of neglect at the federal level; programs are getting much more effective even as program stability would seem to be more uncertain. Both the technical expertise and the marketing ability of weatherization agencies have developed as smaller-scale collaboration supplants federal leadership. Entrance into the field of low-income energy conservation services, then, offers great opportunities for local groups to help their communities by reducing the negative impacts of energy costs on low-income residents.
Energy Costs, Conservation, and the Poor

Outcast_Searcher wrote:So clearly throwing endless money at that problem isn't a solution. Now, I'm all for offering more educational opportunities (with mandatory acceptable attendance and academic performance as a basic condition of remaining in the program -- and as a taxpayer I'd be happy to pay for such programs), but somehow neither side of the political aisle seems willing to do something REAL to actually solve the problem. Better to advocate throwing more money at it, and gathering votes from the Democratic base along the way.
I've always been a strong proponent of education.
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Re: Green legislation mainly helps the affluent

Unread postby Newfie » Mon 07 Sep 2015, 18:47:59

High speed trains are my favorite example of a subsidy that favors the well off.
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Re: Green legislation mainly helps the affluent

Unread postby sunweb » Tue 08 Sep 2015, 09:55:14

Which poor, what country are we talking about?
I took the table from this site:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_c ... onsumption

I copied it to an Excel spread sheet. I rank ordered the least energy use to the most and then did an accumulation of population from least energy use to most. I could then look at what 50% or 80% of the world’s population used compared to the US of A.

Caveat: these figures are approximate however, realistic.

Caveat: These per capita figures are misleading
because the wealthy get the "lion's share."

Approximately 50% of the population (approximately 3.5 billion people) use 3.53 kilowatts a day or less. That is 0.0006% of the total used globally.

Approximately 80% of the population (approximately 5.6 billion people) use 11 kilowatts a day or less. That is 0.0018% of the total globally.

The USA uses 40.42 kilowatts a day. That is 4.5% of the global population. We are part of the 1% in global electrical energy use. Even that is misleading, because all the products made elsewhere and shipped to the USA add to the electrical (and total energy) available for our consumption.

See more at: http://sunweber.blogspot.com/2015/07/el ... ality.html
or
I took the table from this site:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_c ... per_capita

I copied it to an Excel spread sheet. I added population, rank ordered the least energy use to the most, and then did an accumulation of population from least energy use to most. I could then look at what 50% or 75% of the world’s population used compared to the USofA.

Caveat: these figures are approximate however, realistic.

Caveat: These per capita figures are misleading
because the wealthy get the "lion's share."

50% of the world’s population, over 3 billion people use 9.35 barrels of oil equivalent/yr.
75% of the world’s population, over 5 billion people use 12.4 barrels of oil equivalent/yr.
The USofA uses 49 barrels of oil equivalent/yr. with 5% of the world’s population.
Find the spread sheet here:
http://sunweber.blogspot.com/2015/07/gl ... ality.html
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Re: Green legislation mainly helps the affluent

Unread postby Apneaman » Thu 17 Sep 2015, 16:56:49

c8 is partly right. The truth is that most legislation goes the way of the wealthy and powerful, left - right, green or dirty. They been screwing everyone for at least 30 years and picking sides [left-right] is like voting for who gets to rape you. Same in most countries.


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http://scholar.princeton.edu/sites/defa ... cs.doc.pdf
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Re: Green legislation mainly helps the affluent

Unread postby ennui2 » Fri 18 Sep 2015, 00:12:25

Apneaman wrote:c8 is partly right. The truth is that most legislation goes the way of the wealthy and powerful, left - right, green or dirty. They been screwing everyone for at least 30 years and picking sides [left-right] is like voting for who gets to rape you. Same in most countries.


Not entirely true. Say what you want about Obama playing both sides of the fence, but why is it the GOP wants to abolish the EPA? When it comes to corporatocracy, the GOP tips the scales by far.
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