[AgentR11]

Very wierd.. try again...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HWYlvxjuvBA

[Sixstrings]

Since the thread has been derailed into the topic of who goes around boasting. Well, it's quite thick and rich listening to bitching about Russian boasting. If anything, it is the USA that thinks it is the center of universe in terms of human intelligence.

Here's the truth about it: Americans and Russians are both, "cowboys." Blowhards. Braggarts. Sentimental, and a sense of honor, and moral right and wrong. Russians and Americans are both different, from Europeans.

It's no accident the two sides had a cold war for half a century. They're too much alike.

And then of course, there are big differences too. Historically, America has an evangelism bent. This comes from the Puritans. America evangelizes -- with religion (in the past more than today, religion is on the wane everywhere), but then that same evangelistic gene we have rolled right on over into democracy and the American way, and today for liberals it is human rights and climate change action, etc.

Russians aren't evangelists, except when they were spreading communism, and they do have a religious aspect to them as well -- they were leaders of othordoxy for a while, they got that from the Byzantines. Russians don't evangalize though in the way America does, it's more like Russians just like to have a Russian Empire.

Russia -- is historically and culturally, an outsider. And the USA has always been an outsider, as well. First rising up to great power status in the days of Teddy Roosevelt, and he sailed the "Great White Fleet" around the world to announce America is a power now.

The things Putin does now, and that Russia does, it's a lot like that early 20th century America. And the politics in Russia are more rough and tumble, more corruption, very much like we had back then. Russia is "making itself great again" and doing what we did around 1910.

As for "center of the universe" -- Russia is pot calling kettle black on that, no? Russia wants to be a center of a universe, as well. In the cold war, the world was split between the two. American-led alliance, and Russian-led.

Nowdays.. what's the trouble about? For what reason?

Communism vs. capitalism was a real thing to have opposition about. Diametrically opposed ideologies, incompatible.

So what, exactly, is the new division? I don't see a reason for it. Ok so we'll have tensions in the future, over the arctic. What's the point of that? Russia needn't rattle sabres to get resources access, it could do that and be a winner and be on top from WITHIN the western system. So why oppose it, it's not even efficient or the most profitable. There's no good reason for Russia to be the "outsider," anymore. There's no leninism to defend and advance, anymore.

Why doesn't Russia just ADOPT ameicanism? It's honestly just "westernism" and democracy, that's all it is. Russia shouldn't keep trying to reinvent the wheel. Like Putin's "directed democracy" idea. You CAN'T reinvent the wheel. What we have in the US, our constitutional system and liberties and capitalism and democratic institutions, it's the best system possible.

It's the culmination of thousands of years of western civ, from the Greek republic city states to the Roman Republic and empire, to the renaissance, and then the age of reason combined with English values of commerce and hard work.

Russia can't invent something different, and it be better, there is no better than this.

Russia could just adopt westernism and make it its own. Like South Korea did. Like Japan did.

A real constitution, with real division of powers, needn't be "American." It's just law and a blueprint. It can apply anywhere, but you need the entire system to it.

For example: in Russia, the duma changed the law to remove presidential term limits so Putin could run again. In the US, that can't be done, that would require a consitutional amendment which is very difficult to pass, needing 3/4 of all state legislatures to approve.

We have a good system in the US. It can work anywhere, Russia could be a place of liberty and free thought and total freedom -- and the economy would boom along with that freedom. With the most freedom, comes the most innovation. That's not propaganda it's just a fact, the more repression there is then the less innovation a place has. People have to be free, in order to create.

Russia could peacefully develop itself and become a big rich Canada. It could have been a leader in the West, not opposing it. It could lead the world and contribute in cultural things.

Personally, I'd rather see more good Russian movies and novels and art, and other contributions to civilization, rather than just tough guy "Empire" stuff. But yeah, I've read all the articles explaining things.. Russians felt defeated at the end of the cold war.. they don't know what it is "to be great again," but they miss that part of the USSR, just the nationalism of being a "Great Power" -- whether it made any economic or practical sense, or not.

[AgentR11]

TLDR: Be like us, or be eradicated.

[Sixstrings]

TLDR: Be like us, or be eradicated.

Well.. if Russia is not "like us," then what are they like, Agent?

Is it the Russian Empire all over again? From the 19th century? Like, back when it was just realpolitik more than ideology and you had a German Empire and a British Empire and a Teddy Roosevelt new American Power and then a Russian Empire, all scrambling against each other?

Is it just old school empire stuff, is Putin just a dictator? And we are not arguing about ideologies anymore, like communism vs. capitalism?

I guess that's the situation, and it just is what it is.

Of course -- Russian propaganda would like to MAKE it about some kind of ideology. Like, "America is bullying the world and only Putin can protect you," and meanwhile all of Putin's neighbors are worried about Russian tanks rolling over a border -- not American ones.

Anyhow.. the next trouble spot with Russia will be over arctic territory and resources, in the coming years.

And the honest truth, and irony, is that Americans aren't even the most against Russia. There was a guy in the Duma that named Canada the most russophobic nation. And in Norway, norwegian tv just produced their most expensive project ever. It's a miniseries about Russia invading and occupying norway:

Okkupert
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=muo1K8mlzrk

Whatever trouble we have with Russia, will only be due to Russia forcing our hand. And will be because our allies are worried about Russia, while we are not, but it'll be our allies that drag us reluctantly into it when really we don't need any of this sh*t.

Or, Russia may push on us directly in ways we can't ignore, like crossing a line about hacking us or if their air force starts crossing our borders.

We'll see where everything goes, but anyone that knows the real situation knows that the US really doesn't want bothered with Russia and if we have problems with Russia it's only because we're dragged into it or forced into it. Or, I would also add, honestly there are places like in Syria where Putin is making it impossible for us. We can't stop the refugee crisis, because Putin wants us to stay out of Syria, meanwhile Putin never takes full responsibility and handles his Syrian proxy so that there are no refugees.

Russia is just a fly in the ointment for us, Russia won't handle things but won't let us handle them either. We'll see where it all goes, we may have to give up and do our own thing at some point and not care what Russia thinks about it.

(Regarding Syria I mean, honestly the refugee problem needs to be solved. There's already gonna be like a million Syrian refugees in Germany. Putin doesn't care. Putin's not helping. Putin's not doing anything at all, about it. He won't work with us. All he does is block us. Well we have a fire to put out and we may have to go ahead and put it out, even if Putin does not like it. America won't touch his naval base so they needn't worry about that, but somebody is gonna have to solve this middle east mess at some point.)

EDIT: my original point was just that the main problem is we are too much alike in ways, Russia and the US. The thing I don't like about these Russia discussions is that they do turn into a nationalistic patriotic pissing contest. It's like Jesus H. Christ, after fifty years of cold war and that being all over with -- we all understand Russia, we don't want problems with them, and while Russia's neighbors are more threatened by Russia -- we Americans don't have any russophobia, that's in the past.

The thing is though, there are problems in the world -- like Ukraine, which Russia created.

And then there is Syria and that's a big one and it's gotta get solved and as much as people like Russians, Russia can't just block us, can't just chessgame us and the UK and Germany fill up with middle east refugees and nothing gets solved. Russia has to work with us, for real this time and no games, or honestly the US is probably gonna have to just start handling things again and ignore their opinion entirely.

Under Putin, Russia has not been an honest player to make deals with. We have gotten burned, time and again.

Everybody wants to like Russia but seriously, Russia has to start truly working with people or Russia will just be totally cut out of the loop altogether. I think Putin has overplayed his hand. I think the next president will be tougher, and not fall for Putin's last-minute, disingenuous ideas about how to solve international problems.

[Sixstrings]

Odierno: Russia The "Most Dangerous" Threat To USA - Special Report all Star Panel
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CQanWIk3BIE

(George Will agrees, he says Russia is the top threat then ISIS then south china sea problems then north korea)

Is Russia The Most Dangerous Threat To The Us?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=knB9qIdqD5U

So does anyone know the latest, about Ukraine? I haven't been paying attention to it. Apparently the fighting just never stops? Did Russia make any advances, further in west?