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EV Deals

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EV Deals

Unread postby Pops » Wed 27 May 2015, 16:19:22

Just saw this:

In fact, some dealers are already seeing a growing number of used LEAFs clogging up their lots. In response, Nissan will offer LEAF leaseholders as much as $5,000 to buy their EV at the end of the contract term. There are limits on this offer, as right now it’s mostly targeted at owners in California with 2012 and 2013 model year LEAFs. LEAF owners have proven to actually drive more frequently than regular car owners, but Nissan has had a few battery degradation woes that may cause some owners to think twice.

Nissan isn’t alone here though. GM is offering extremely attractive lease offers on the outgoing first-gen Chevy Volt to make room for the much-improved 2016 model. For anybody looking to get into a plug-in car at a low price, the next few months offer some great low-cost, low-risk opportunities.

Any buyers who take the cash will have potentially earned as much as $15,000 in incentives towards their $30,000 electric cars; $7,500 from the Feds, $2,500 from the state of California, and another $5,000 from Nissan itself. Factor in any free charging or discounted electricity rates, and driving an electric car can be one helluva money-saver. That said, a replacement battery costs $5,500, effectively wiping out Nissan’s generous offer when that day finally arrives.

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Re: EV Deals

Unread postby hvacman » Wed 27 May 2015, 17:05:49

Tough to say what a replacement battery will actually cost for a Leaf when the 8-year warranty expires (10 year in California). Li-ion battery technologies and costs are changing so fast that predicting what Li-ion battery costs, capacity, size, etc. will be in 2023 is like predicting what the cost of oil will be - or if California will be in a flood or drought cycle.
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Re: EV Deals

Unread postby Peak_Yeast » Fri 29 May 2015, 08:17:50

As I mentioned a while back - here in DK - even though there has been really lousy EV sales - I am starting to see second hand / dead battery EV cars for sale at a 90+% discount.

I have looked a little into repairing the installed batteries, but it is a costly gamble that at best will be able to break even in costs with my LUPO 3L as transportation. - If I also charge it with solar power - i.e. more investments.

IF it was possible to exchange the LI-ion cells with lead acid i could do it for maybe 4000$. But the space and weight prohibits this :-(. New LI-ion batteries for a 25KWh battery cost is about 10-15000$.

Basically: When the battery dies in your EV and you cant get it replaced for free it is essentially a new car.

I have looked my cost of having a pure EV car vs. my LUPO and the LUPO is cheaper in $/km by 50%. Besides being cheaper to buy in the first place. The hybrid cars are the "same": I would pay more up front what I could save down the line.

So IMO what is needed for EVs not to lose all their value at the End Of Battery Life is a company independent battery system that allows people to always be able to recycle their batteries and get new ones at a discount. The solution must be permanent if it has to involve millions of cars during a longer period and it must be fairly cheap.

Could be great with much cheaper batteries. But they must be way cheaper than now.

For example: The think city i mentioned. 100.000Kr to buy a new original battery (almost 20.000$)
The battery is "guaranteed" for 100.000km. - Or 1 kr/km (20cent/km).
The battery is 20 KWh (25 max - 20 used) which gives a range of about 130 km or 0.3 kr/km.

In comparison with my ICE: 25km/l l=10kr. Or 0.4 kr/km compared with EV at 1.3 kr/km.

The ICE has, of course, some extra maintenance compared to an EV.
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Re: EV Deals

Unread postby Timo » Fri 29 May 2015, 10:47:22

I love EVs, and have been following the evolution of EVs for a few years now. No heavy research, but just paying attention to new developments in the industry. Thinking about the issue of dead batteries bringing down the cost of used EVs, i just had an epiphany. Since the inception of the industry, EVs have been relegated to the upper echelon of our economic soceity. The early developers, for the most part, have been the Teslas, the Mercedes, the BMWs, the Audis, and even the mega EVs of McLaren, and a couple other E. European builders. Bently is also getting into the game. Mitsubishi and Nissan have been the only companies to offer lower cost EVs for the average Joe. Chevy is also gaining in that area, too. Ford is fully invested in hybrids to count as even being in the EV game. But, given the numbers of EV sales around the globe, they are increasing, but those increases are mostly occurring at the upper end. This pissed me off because i really want an EV NOW, but can't afford an $80,000 investment in any new car. $30,000? Maybe, but even that's pushing my upper limits. Add in the factors of dead batteries, and the costs of replacing those dead batteries to essentially get a new car, suddenly, i feel OK about letting those with the financial means be the guinea pigs who buy those cars, and fund the research into the technologies necessary to bring the reliability up and the costs down for the rest of us. It is taking longer than i would like, but technologies are getting there to bring EVs to everyone. I'd rather buy a 200 mile EV 3 years from now, AFTER the technologies have been tested for a while, and developed to withstand cold winters, hot summers, and quicker charging times. That car would/will likely be the last car i'll ever need to buy. If i bought an EV now, i'd essentially be required to make another sizeable investment in just a few years time. I'm happy (enough) to wait a while longer for the technologies to mature. In the mean time, i'll juct continue to use my jetpack. And my bike.
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Re: EV Deals

Unread postby Outcast_Searcher » Fri 29 May 2015, 12:43:55

Timo wrote: This pissed me off because i really want an EV NOW, but can't afford an $80,000 investment in any new car. $30,000? Maybe, but even that's pushing my upper limits. Add in the factors of dead batteries, and the costs of replacing those dead batteries to essentially get a new car, suddenly, i feel OK about letting those with the financial means be the guinea pigs who buy those cars, and fund the research into the technologies necessary to bring the reliability up and the costs down for the rest of us. It is taking longer than i would like, but technologies are getting there to bring EVs to everyone.

Exactly right, Timo.

I am pretty dismayed to see that basically, my worst fears about the reliability of such batteries appears to be a real world issue. This and the costs you cite is why, early adopters aside, so few true electric cars are being sold.

Given that a car like the Prius C is reasonably priced and has proven to be reliable and gets real world 50+ mpg in the city, it seems to me that if people actually CARED about conserving fuel as a major priority, that such cars would be selling in DROVES.

Well, with only a little over 30,000 selling in 2014 in the entire US, (less than in 2012 and in 2013 when crude oil averaged close to $100), it still appears to be ALL about economics -- even when the early adopter risk is largely mitigated.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toyota_Prius_c

For me, when in the real world, I can get a 200 mile range (real world in the winter if I use the heater) Tesla about the size of my Corolla, for about $25,000 -- AND the battery will RELIABLY last 8 years or more without becoming significantly weakened (like lowering my range by 40% or so) -- AND we see that the battery warranties are actually consistently HONORED, then I will strongly consider such a car.

Obviously, things like real world charging requirements, real world replacement battery costs, dealer/service availability, etc. are things that ordinary car consumers consider critical. One wonders how long it will take such things to scale up beyond marketing pointing to such things "in the future", etc. (To me, with 200 miles of REAL WORLD reliable range, one can rent a traditional car for longer trips, if the charging network isn't what one deems acceptably convenient.)

I'm rooting for the truly practical and convenient electric car for the middle class, but I won't be holding my breath while I wait.
Last edited by Outcast_Searcher on Fri 29 May 2015, 14:36:43, edited 1 time in total.
Given the track record of the perma-doomer blogs, I wouldn't bet a fast crash doomer's money on their predictions.
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Re: EV Deals

Unread postby KaiserJeep » Fri 29 May 2015, 14:21:56

If you look in Craig's List and on E-bay here in the Silly Valley, you will find one or two year old EV's at what seem like very attractive prices. That is, until you realize that the original purchaser bought the car early in the year while the limited annual number of $2500 State of California EV rebates were available, in addition to the $7500 Federal rebate, plus some manufacturer incentive which is a discount of up to $5000 on last year's EV model, and that he paid up to $15,000 less than the list price, and is looking to get even more cash by selling to you at less than $15,000 below list during the second half of the year, when only the $7500 Federal rebate is available - and that only to the original EV purchaser. Far too many people fall for this scam because it looks like a really good price on a slightly used EV with low miles - but it's not, really, because the EV actually depreciated the normal amount plus up to $15,000 the first year after purchase.

It's almost fraud, and of course, none of the car dealerships will touch an EV on a trade-in, because of these behaviors. I truly believe that the subsidies should end, and the marketplace should be a level playing field. But realize that the prices for new and used EV's are being heavily distorted by such borderline fraudulent activities. This makes it near impossible to calculate the true cost of EV ownership, because the original cash outlay can only be guessed at.
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Re: EV Deals

Unread postby Outcast_Searcher » Fri 29 May 2015, 14:47:47

KaiserJeep wrote: I truly believe that the subsidies should end, and the marketplace should be a level playing field.

Hear hear!

Having meaningful fossil fuel taxes which at least modestly reflected real world social costs would make the cost of BEV's much more competitive. (Pollution, the ever-controversial climate, and military costs of protecting oil interests would be three areas to consider. The total cost of just these three areas, IMO, dwarfs the total current cost of gas and diesel.)

Of course, we can't do THAT -- it might make some voters angry -- even those that love to drive and fly long distances to "climate conferences" and such things. :roll: :-x

So instead, the rules distort different things in different ways, according to how much power a given group can leverage for political favors. And then we wonder why consumers make "irrational" energy choices, even while we steadfastly refuse to even consider to TRY to come up with objective standards for a rational tax system on things like energy and/or pollution. :cry:
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Re: EV Deals

Unread postby StarvingLion » Mon 01 Jun 2015, 14:37:31

Fraud Fraud Fraud...The biggest welfare bum in the "country", Elon Musk, is your hero...hahahahahaha.

http://atomicinsights.com/hero-worship- ... elon-musk/

This, from a bunch of welfare artists themselves, the nuclear "industry".

What don't you people understand? If you aint got the premier oil deposits, you're toast. And the US Military lost the war to secure the oil with the vietnam war (proxy war with China). Then the means of production immediately moved to China. What a coincidence.

These laughable subsidy driven "renewable energy" scams like the Energiewende are simply pump and dump wealth transfer schemes.

This "country" is bankrupt. All you got left is military solutions in the form of hypothetical autonomous mechanical "mosquitoes" (billions of them), enabled by mesoscopic physics, powered by organic molecules, and new means of miniaturized manufacturing (photon controlled synthetic chemistry).

But no, you fantasy dwellers have thrown away the science books long ago.

You believe in PUMP and DUMP forever

Have fun lying to one another while you head to WalSoupline
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Re: EV Deals

Unread postby Pops » Mon 01 Jun 2015, 14:45:55

I thought you were "outa here"?
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Re: EV Deals

Unread postby hvacman » Mon 01 Jun 2015, 16:35:38

This thread started with a post from Pops that discussed deals on Gen 1 Leafs and Volts and cited some of the degradation problems of the Leafs' batteries. I didn't read anything in it about Volt battery problems. And there is a reason. Equating a Leaf with a Chevy Volt, battery-wise, is like comparing Briggs and Stratton engine to a Detroit Diesel.

Nissan had a major problem with their first generation battery for the Leaf for hot-weather climates. They had very poor (as in no) thermal management, a not-so-great battery chemistry, and a lot of battery degradation in areas like AZ and TX. It also is aggressively charged and discharged, which doesn't help things.

By contrast, the Volt's battery is probably the most pampered traction battery ever built. It is actively cooled and heated and conservatively charged and discharged. GM really did a great job engineering their battery, in conjunction with LG Chem. In CA, it has a 10 year/150K mile warranty on it.

The Gen 2 Volt battery will see a little more depth in the charge/discharge cycle, but thanks to some gen 2 battery design improvements, should see an even longer duty cycle.

Here is a link to a short video on the Volt battery specs, both Gen 2 and Gen 2.

http://insideevs.com/2016-chevrolet-vol ... des-video/
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Re: EV Deals

Unread postby Logic » Mon 01 Jun 2015, 17:05:22

hvacman wrote:This thread started with a post from Pops that discussed deals on Gen 1 Leafs and Volts and cited some of the degradation problems of the Leafs' batteries. I didn't read anything in it about Volt battery problems. And there is a reason. Equating a Leaf with a Chevy Volt, battery-wise, is like comparing Briggs and Stratton engine to a Detroit Diesel.
.../


+1!

Very well said.

The deals on used EVs are phenomenal, I know many very happy used EV owners.
Even the used Leafs are great, as long as you are careful that it wasn't one from AZ or such.
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Re: EV Deals

Unread postby StarvingLion » Mon 01 Jun 2015, 17:15:25

hvacman wrote:This thread started with a post from Pops that discussed deals on Gen 1 Leafs and Volts and cited some of the degradation problems of the Leafs' batteries. I didn't read anything in it about Volt battery problems. And there is a reason. Equating a Leaf with a Chevy Volt, battery-wise, is like comparing Briggs and Stratton engine to a Detroit Diesel.

Nissan had a major problem with their first generation battery for the Leaf for hot-weather climates. They had very poor (as in no) thermal management, a not-so-great battery chemistry, and a lot of battery degradation in areas like AZ and TX. It also is aggressively charged and discharged, which doesn't help things.

By contrast, the Volt's battery is probably the most pampered traction battery ever built. It is actively cooled and heated and conservatively charged and discharged. GM really did a great job engineering their battery, in conjunction with LG Chem. In CA, it has a 10 year/150K mile warranty on it.

The Gen 2 Volt battery will see a little more depth in the charge/discharge cycle, but thanks to some gen 2 battery design improvements, should see an even longer duty cycle.

Here is a link to a short video on the Volt battery specs, both Gen 2 and Gen 2.

http://insideevs.com/2016-chevrolet-vol ... des-video/


Very good hvacman...now tell me why the hell does anyone *productive* buy a subsidized chevy volt? These people buy cargo vans and heavy diesel powered trucks to pull and haul stuff and their work tools.

I guess this scam is for other scam artists in Scamerica The Design Studio. The hordes of useless tits behind computers doing paper shuffling in offices...The old fogies with their entitlements from nowhere...The students getting their debt yoke placed around their neck while they attend Party School...etc

You guys may as well tell the sheep the real deal: You don't need a vehicle at all...the real factory jobs are coming back...and they got buses for you people.
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Re: EV Deals

Unread postby StarvingLion » Mon 01 Jun 2015, 17:24:17

I just phoned up my political "representative" demanding money to work on a new fangled battery just like super zero welfare bum Elon Musk. She said, exact words,

"You are not competitive"

No further elaboration...these "people" are like bleeping drones saying the same slogan over and over...

"You are not competitive"
"You are not competitive"
"You are not competitive"
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Re: EV Deals

Unread postby KaiserJeep » Mon 01 Jun 2015, 19:14:03

I just wanted to inject an inconvenient fact: the Chevy Volt is a plug-in Hybrid vehicle, not an EV. It has an onboard flex-fuel engine and generator and an operating mode that couples this engine to the powertrain to move the car.

I too admire the Volt battery tech, but the smallish battery in the Volt has a 38-mile maximum range, and you would not want to discharge it more than about 20 miles worth - or anyway half capacity - in daily use.

The actual Chevrolet EV is a much smaller car, the Spark EV. The SF Bay Area is one of the places you can find such a limited distribution vehicle, but I find it no more impressive than all the rest of the tiny EVs.

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