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What happened to flight MH17?

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Re: What happened to flight MH17?

Unread postby dissident » Thu 22 Jan 2015, 23:26:34

Seems like the knee-jerk media-fed assumption is that the Buk can hit a target at 10 km from 26 km away with no problems. This is yet another internet discussion based on media spew. The 1980s missiles on the Buk in rebel hands have a maximum range of 35 km at ground level. This is good old ballistics and they do not have a 35 km hit radius for targets at 10 km altitude. It is actually under 25 km.

So the rebels, with no motive, scored a direct hit without a tracking radar on a target outside the hit range of their missiles. Right, who needs reality when fantasy will do.

The 26 km comes from the US claim that the rebel Buk was in Snezhnoye (Snizhne).

Can anyone provide another example where a plane downing involved the signing of an NDA by a group of countries involved in the crash investigation with veto rights by the most likely perpetrator? What is there to hide? Instead of this idiotic discussion about how easy it is to operate a Buk, perhaps focus on something more significant would be worthwhile.
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Re: What happened to flight MH17?

Unread postby AgentR11 » Thu 22 Jan 2015, 23:48:35

dissident wrote:The 26 km comes from the US claim that the rebel Buk was in Snezhnoye (Snizhne).


And why are we giving that claim any form of imprematur?
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Re: What happened to flight MH17?

Unread postby Keith_McClary » Tue 10 Feb 2015, 15:07:23

Ministers deny knowing about threats to passenger planes over Ukraine
February 3, 2015
The Dutch government did not have any information about concrete threats to high-flying passenger aircraft above eastern Ukraine, ministers said in written answers to parliament on Tuesday.

The cabinet was responding to reports that diplomats were warned about the risks at a meeting, just days before Malaysian Airways flight MH17 was shot down on July 17, killing 298 people.

In their briefing, ministers said diplomats were told that an Antonov plane flying at a height of 6.2 kilometers had been shot down. However, flight MH17 was flying at over 10 kilometres, above the restricted zone, ministers said.

The cabinet has refused to publish a report on the diplomatic meeting, which was sent to the foreign affairs and defence ministries and in summary form to four others. It was not sent to the infrastructure ministry, which is responsible for aviation, Nos says.

A copy was also sent to the Dutch safety council OVV which is investigating the cause of the crash.

The meeting had not led to any airlines changing their routes, the cabinet briefing said. Those which did avoid eastern Ukraine, had done that since the unrest in Crimea in April, ministers claim.

MPs continue to press cabinet over MH17 airspace safety
Politics February 4, 2015
MPs from across the political spectrum say they are concerned about shortcomings in the system set up to warn airlines about the risk of flying over conflict zones, website nu.nl says on Wednesday.

They plan to raise the issue during Thursday’s debate on the investigation into the downing of Malaysian Airways flight MH17 on July 17.

Currently, individual countries themselves are responsible for sending out safety updates, known as Notams. These state at which height it is safe to fly. Using this information and security service reports, it is up to airlines themselves to decide what to do, nu.nl says.

VVD MP Han ten Broeke told nu.nl the current system would appear to be inadequate given that a plane carrying 298 people was shot out of the air.

British Airways and Korean Air already avoided eastern Ukraine because of the risks.

Briefing

Ministers said on Tuesday they did not have any information about concrete threats to high-flying passenger aircraft above eastern Ukraine. The cabinet was responding to reports that diplomats were warned about the risks at a meeting, just days before Malaysian Airways flight MH17 was shot down.

In their briefing, ministers said diplomats were told that an Antonov plane flying at a height of 6.2 kilometers had been shot down. However, flight MH17 was flying at over 10 kilometres, above the restricted zone, ministers said.

The cabinet has refused to publish a report on the diplomatic meeting, which was sent to the foreign affairs and defence ministries and in summary form to four others. It was not sent to the infrastructure ministry, which is responsible for aviation, Nos said. A copy was also sent to the Dutch safety council OVV which is investigating the cause of the crash.

The meeting had not led to any airlines changing their routes, the cabinet briefing said. Those which did avoid eastern Ukraine, had done so since the unrest in Crimea in April, ministers claim.
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Re: What happened to flight MH17?

Unread postby Keith_McClary » Mon 06 Apr 2015, 12:17:39

Dutch were aware of Ukraine airspace risks before MH17: claim
The Dutch foreign affairs and defence ministries were aware that Russian ground to air missiles were in eastern Ukraine three days before flight MH17 was shot down, according to television current affairs programme Argos.

A report on a diplomatic briefing in Kiev on July 14, written by a Dutch diplomat, states that Ukraine warned officials of the danger in Ukrainian airspace. The meeting was called on the same day as a Ukrainian military plane was shot down.

Prime minister Mark Rutte has so far refused to make the report public, saying it could damage diplomatic relations between the two countries. However, a copy is in the hands of Argos researchers



The report, written by the interim head of the Dutch embassy in Kiev, states that the Ukrainian plane, an Antonov 26, could only have been shot down using Russian equipment or by the Russian military ‘given the separatists do not have this sort of equipment’.

The shooting down of the Antonov was the ‘most recent concrete example’ of the ‘critical and dangerous’ situation in the east of the country.

Until now, Dutch ministers had said that the briefing concerned the ‘possible deployment’ of ground to air missiles.

Three days after the briefing, MH17 was shot down, killing 298 people, most of them Dutch. There is mounting evidence the plane was brought down by a BUK rocket of Russian origin.
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Re: What happened to flight MH17?

Unread postby dissident » Mon 06 Apr 2015, 12:24:56

More BS propaganda. Of course, as usual, the word of the Kiev regime is golden truth. Right. There were no Russian Buk systems in the region. Period. Russia has S-300 and S-400 systems for long range interception. It does not need to deploy short range systems near Ukraine. But it is a fact that Kiev regime Buk systems were operating in the Donbas at the time. I even posted one Ukrainian news report showing the Buk system with a functioning tracking radar (rotating rectangular panel).

Once again, where are the flight voice and data recorder outputs? It has been over EIGHT months. Both the voice and data recorders were recovered intact.
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Re: What happened to flight MH17?

Unread postby tita » Mon 06 Apr 2015, 15:21:03

dissident wrote:Once again, where are the flight voice and data recorder outputs? It has been over EIGHT months. Both the voice and data recorders were recovered intact.


Maybe it's in the hand of the people (international) doing the investigation, which are still investigating on the circumstances of the crash of this plane. Releasing it before may compromise the results of the ongoing investigation.

So, whatever we hear about what happened in this accident, except coming from these people investigating, is total bullshit. And I think that this is really difficult to get true information when BOTH camps are providing falsified intelligence, propaganda, and mounted testimony. The investigators have much more information than we'll ever do, and it's their job, not ours. By the way, they don't plan to release their report before october.

So, why are you relaying here all the BS propaganda coming from russian propaganda newspaper, which of course do not tell any truth about this accident, but try to turn public opinion on their side! Which, btw, is exactly the same from the western side. I don't want to be used as a tool of any propaganda, and I don't understand why you are so eager to be.
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Re: What happened to flight MH17?

Unread postby dissident » Mon 06 Apr 2015, 16:21:59

OK, sunshine, show me another case where the data was not released for over 8 months. I dare you.

BTW the Dutch, Ukrainians,etc. all signed an NDA with veto rights. That means the Kiev regime can control the release of the information. You think this is normal, do you.

I am quite sure if the rebels decided to keep the black boxes you NATO drones would be foaming at the mouth screeching about "suppression of information" 24/7.
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Re: What happened to flight MH17?

Unread postby Withnail » Wed 08 Apr 2015, 08:06:09

I don't know about anyone else, but this supposed photo of a Buk on a trailer in Donetsk looks dodgy to me.

Why is the Buk like an acid trip but the truck cab is crystal clear?

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Re: What happened to flight MH17?

Unread postby AgentR11 » Wed 08 Apr 2015, 13:33:35

Looks like it was taken through a smudgy car window from a cell phone camera.

Even if it was clear, it wouldn't demonstrate anything.. other than that flat bed trucks exist in Ukraine, and BUK systems exist in Ukraine. Both of which are known facts anyway. [even the "in Ukraine" part isn't really demonstrated by the image though... just giving them the benefit of the doubt on that one.]
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Re: What happened to flight MH17?

Unread postby tita » Wed 08 Apr 2015, 14:07:22

dissident wrote:OK, sunshine, show me another case where the data was not released for over 8 months. I dare you.

Any plane crash? Because the investigation usually last more than a year before publishing the final report. They also publish reports on the advance of their investigation (which they did). Also, there is a criminal investigation, which is aimed to determine who was responsible (because nobody want to assume the responsibility). This is quite complicated.

dissident wrote:BTW the Dutch, Ukrainians,etc. all signed an NDA with veto rights. That means the Kiev regime can control the release of the information. You think this is normal, do you.

In the international laws, the country where a plane crash is responsible of the investigation. If they are unable to do it, they have to rely on another country. Since the Dutch were already involved, they were asked by the Ukrainian to do it.

dissident wrote:I am quite sure if the rebels decided to keep the black boxes you NATO drones would be foaming at the mouth screeching about "suppression of information" 24/7.

This was unlikely to happen. If they deliberately hiddened any information or blocked the access of the crash site to the investigators, they would have lost their credit from everybody, not only the "westerners".

As you know, there is a armed conflict inside Ukraine, and a word conflict outside, supporting each camp. I don't know who holds the truth. But the efforts deployed are quite impressive.

Just an example. There is a claim from russia that MH17 was shot down by an Ukrainian fighter plane, designed for ground support. It's just so funny to see people trying to change, in wikipedia, the service altitude from 7'000m to 10'000m, while others change it back to what the manufacturer says about HIS plane. Just to support the claim of the russian government. Even in the russian wikipedia pages, the fight goes on, with people referring on various news sites or governement page, while other people put the real information back telling not to use propaganda sources.

Stories. That's what we are hearing. And people reporting further these stories. One side has three to offer. Either an Ukrainian fighter plane shot it (believing it was Putin's plane), or a Surface to Air Missile launched from the Ukrainian part (Putin's plane again). Hearing one or the other depended on the news propaganda report, but actually, they don't support the second one. And lastly, a conspiracy from the Ukrainian, routing MH17 on the war zone so it could be shot.

The other side tells that some rebels mistakenly shot the airplane using a buk missile, provided from russia.

Whatever you think, there is no solid proof supporting any of these stories. Someone is hiding the responsibility of course. But if you really think about it, you just see no reason for Ukraine to shoot planes in their sky, because of the lack of enemy planes, while the rebels had all the reasons to do it, because they were attacked with planes.
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Re: What happened to flight MH17?

Unread postby Keith_McClary » Wed 08 Apr 2015, 14:36:46

tita wrote:if you really think about it, you just see no reason for Ukraine to shoot planes in their sky, because of the lack of enemy planes, while the rebels had all the reasons to do it, because they were attacked with planes.
The thinking is that it was a false flag operation that would be blamed on Russia. If so, it worked very well for the Kiev regime and its "Western" backers.

Do we have any explanation of why the flight was diverted?
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Re: What happened to flight MH17?

Unread postby Strummer » Wed 08 Apr 2015, 14:38:12

tita wrote:But if you really think about it, you just see no reason for Ukraine to shoot planes in their sky, because of the lack of enemy planes


Why then had Ukraine deployed active batteries of Buk systems in the area at that time? This is well documented, there are even official videos from ukrainian TV showing reporters visiting the ATO troops near Donetsk a few days before the shotdown, with a active Buk visible in the background. And why is Ukraine claiming that they didn't have any Buks there, which is an obvious lie?
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Re: What happened to flight MH17?

Unread postby Withnail » Thu 09 Apr 2015, 04:14:26

tita wrote:Whatever you think, there is no solid proof supporting any of these stories. Someone is hiding the responsibility of course. But if you really think about it, you just see no reason for Ukraine to shoot planes in their sky, because of the lack of enemy planes, while the rebels had all the reasons to do it, because they were attacked with planes.


At the time of the MH17 shootdown Ukraine was claiming that they were being bombed by Russian planes.
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Re: What happened to flight MH17?

Unread postby tita » Thu 09 Apr 2015, 05:50:11

So, it looks like Ukrainian deploying their own Buk in the zone is a fact. But again, it proves nothing. We don't know if it was on the fear of attack from russian aircrafts, or anything else. We can say quite a lot of things, but it will be stories. But we know also for a fact that the rebels have shoot Ukrainian planes. And also that Ukrainian intelligence obviously lied on several occasions.

And again, Russia puts a lot of stories supporting the idea that it wasn't a buk missile, but an Ukrainian plane. They say that people would have witness the missile trace in the sky. They even make some news report with people telling that they heard two loud bangs in the sky before the crash, without seeing anything going up. They do what the other side is doing, putting ideas in the mind of people.

But no, there is two investigations going on. One trying to tell what happened to the plane, and the other trying to understand who did it (may take a lot of time). For my part, I would let them do their jobs.
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Re: What happened to flight MH17?

Unread postby dissident » Sun 03 May 2015, 10:14:37

Image

(from https://youtu.be/bDtqf0cqOCE, ignore the tin foil, I couldn't find the original CNN video)

A 30 mm bullet found in the wreckage of MH17 shortly after it was brought down without anyone making any sense of it last year.

Now what would a 30 mm bullet be doing there? This is direct evidence supporting that MH17 was strafed by 30 mm gun fire from a fighter jet.

(I can see the pseudo-intellectual objections already, the other bullets would have rained down over a wide area after they cut through MH17 and are literally needles in a haystack to find. Some of them may be found in future years.)
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Re: What happened to flight MH17?

Unread postby AgentR11 » Sun 03 May 2015, 12:06:25

dis.. I see a bullet, in a guys hand.

That's the problem with this type of evidence; because it was impossible to lock down the crash site, we can't know if the bullet was there with the plane when it crashed, existed at the site before hand, or was brought to the site by someone afterwards, or even just brought with the photographer specifically to take the picture, assuming the picture was even taken at the site or after visiting the cite.

Now, I'm not saying that UA couldn't have shot it down from the attack aircraft in question. A civilian airliner on a designated course at a designated altitude is trivial to intercept, even if you're pushing the envelope of the abilities of the attack aircraft. With a steady course, even at an extreme, shooting it would also be fairly simple. So its completely possible. Add in that the pilot could have been told that Putin was traveling on that jet, and you completely remove any potential pilot resistance to orders. That fighter/attack aircraft could make that intercept, could make the hit, and would have no reason NOT to pull the trigger.

But that doesn't prove that it was shot down by UA attack aircraft. And if it was shot down, under the pretext that it was transporting Russians, its a legit kill. Again, no war crime. Just collateral damage.

MH17 is NOT a warcrime. Under any of the rationally possible scenarios, it is collateral damage in wartime. The only ones, really, who bare any civil responsibility, would be the controllers that routed the jet, and the pilot that accepted those instructions to fly over a war zone.

To restate the obvious possibilities:

DNR captures some-of-BUK, sees target, ID's as UA transport, fires and kills MH17. Collateral damage.
UA incompetents with UA BUK see MH17, believe they see Russian invaders headed to Muariupol, fire, kill. Collateral damage.
UA fighter intercepts MH17, believes in magical Russian Emperor, shoots, kills. Collateral damage.

No. War Crime. Period.

Civil case. Lawsuit. All reasonable possibilities place the responsibility on someone with no money.
QED. Its over.

Secondly; sanctions do not go away if you prove Kiev killed MH17. Sanctions do not go away if Minsk II is perfectly implemented. Sanctions only go away when Westerners get tired of passing on market share while noting that sanctions only increase Putin's control of Russia.

If you wanted to hurt Putin, the opposite could have really worked; finance the heck out of businesses in Russia that are owned by people NOT friendly to Putin; pump money in, not out. Out just makes the one with the most, that much more powerful, and Putin at the time of the implementation of sanctions already had direct or indirect control of the most, by far.
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Re: What happened to flight MH17?

Unread postby radon1 » Sun 03 May 2015, 15:25:58

AgentR11 wrote: pump money in, not out.



Pu would then say: "See, money are flowing into the country under my presidency, foreign direct investment increased multi-fold. I told you all that I was going to be a good president."
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Re: What happened to flight MH17?

Unread postby dissident » Sun 03 May 2015, 16:34:27

I retract my link. It is not related to the MH17 it is the crash site of a SU-25 and that is why there are 30 mm rounds in the soil.

--------------------------

BTW, the cockpit section shows linear strafe penetration (regularly spaced 30 mm holes in a line). This is what triggered the strafing theory.
Last edited by dissident on Sun 03 May 2015, 17:00:40, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: What happened to flight MH17?

Unread postby dissident » Sun 03 May 2015, 16:38:33

radon1 wrote:
AgentR11 wrote: pump money in, not out.



Pu would then say: "See, money are flowing into the country under my presidency, foreign direct investment increased multi-fold. I told you all that I was going to be a good president."


If you are not happy with him, vote for somebody else. Assuming you are actually in Russia. You sound like right proper liberast. Here in Canada I have to live under Harper even though he got just above 30% of the popular vote. But liberasts and their 15% national electoral base think they can choose the leader. You have to learn how to live in a democracy and not act like the Maidan retards.
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Re: What happened to flight MH17?

Unread postby dissident » Sat 23 May 2015, 09:57:49

http://7mei.nl/2015/05/18/mh17-buk-laun ... re-cheats/

The above link conclusively destroys the faked "Buk smoke trail photos" being bandied about as some sort of "proof".

Image

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