[Sixstrings]

What do you mean - troops? There are definitely people from Russia out there. But troops?

You posted this on 1/23, I think before the airport fight. Okay, all the press coverage of the final battle at donetsk airport talks about "thousands" of Russian Army in the fight.

We've been going around about this -- and Russia's ambassador to the rest of the world at the UN -- for a year now.

Russians keep saying there are no Russian Army in Ukraine. Ambassador from Lithuania:

Nato officials denounce Russian military engagement with rebels – Lithuanian UN Ambassador Raimonda Murmokaite dismisses Russia’s denials of aiding the rebels. “How can they afford modern tanks, each of which costs at least $4 million,” she asks. “How can hundreds of Russian soldiers be dying on Ukraine’s soil if they are not even there?” A blustering President Vladimir Putin denies all, insisting that Ukrainian forces are “a foreign legion – in this particular case NATO’s foreign legion”.
http://www.irishtimes.com/opinion/renewed-offensive-in-ukraine-deepens-conflict-1.2081581

And why so much obsession with this? The US definitely have military presence in Ukraine, and if Russia presence is "troops" then the US presence is also "troops".

It matters because while Ukraine could take care of internal unrest on its own / sort out a genuine civil war on its own, Ukraine cannot handle militants + the Russian Army.

It matters because regular Russian Army forces are so decisive in battle, obviously, like the last airport battle.

It matters because it's not really fair -- why should one side have a foreign army's direct assistance in the fight, but the other side can't have that.

Radon, we will never agree on this -- the Russian ambassador to the UN still says there have never been any Russian troops ever in Crimea. How is a discussion possible, at any level.

You're going to believe what you're going to believe, and I'm gonna believe what I believe -- my conclusion is that Russian Army was in Crimea, and Russian Army has been in the east, and Russian Army was in that airport fight.

Meanwhile, the only army we've had over there was touring the hospital and giving out those medallions.

They once posted a fake report about a crucified child, and were widely mocked and condemned for it. It was not their report, they just passed it through unchecked.

"Passing it through unchecked" isn't journalism.

They are definitely keeping the heat up.

That's called a drumbeat for war. Over here, we had that with pre Iraq war.

On Ukraine -- this stuff isn't even on the tv over here. That is the indicator for any significant US action -- if you ever see it getting talked about all the time out of nowhere, on CNN, msnbcs, foxnews.

All they talk about right now is ISIS.

[Sixstrings]

Why not give "these soldiers" a chance to rid them of the stupidity imposed on them by the likes of you instead?

It's not a Westerner's fault that Ukrainians looked West and wanted to be a Western place too. I didn't stick a EU or American flag into any protester's hand.

If you are so obsessed with "the fight for values" why don't you travel to the front line yourself and get what you deserve for all your warmongering, instead of readily disposing of the lives of "these soldiers" who don't give a heck about you?

Bottom line:

* rebels are on the offensive, taking new ground

* rebel leaders say they won't do any peace talks until "we've taken all the territory we want"

* It's clear that Putin has no interest in peace or peace talks, when he thinks there is still upside to keeping it going. This is just my opinion, if you want everyone else to believe that dog and pony show at the UN then fine they can believe it but I do not have to.

* Russians' tax dollars are the ones that have gone into serious weaponry -- tanks, rockets, artillery, guns, ammo. Russian Army is the one that's on the ground in Ukraine, not the US Army or NATO. So I don't understand why you expect me to feel bad for anything.

I'd like to stop arguing about this. What will be will be, Russia's going to keep pushing forward in Ukraine and it just is what it is and the UN is just a dog and pony show.

In the spring, US Army will do some training. And Ukraine will start to get some very light anti-armor weapons and such, just a couple hundred million worth which ain't nothin'. And even then, I bet Putin will pull some master chess maneuver.

So really -- there's no point to us wasting our breath anymore, what shall be will be.

And if the fighting is this bad now -- imagine what it will be in the spring. Ukraine gov didn't start a winter offensive, the rebels and Russian Army did. So what will the spring bring, then? It's going to be horrible. So we may as well stop talking about it.

[radon1]

They are definitely keeping the heat up.

That's called a drumbeat for war.

No, that's called keeping the heat up.

[radon1]

It's not a Westerner's fault that Ukrainians looked West and wanted to be a Western place too.

Once again, you are in no position to talk on behalf of Ukrainians.

If you still not get it, no one wants to die or kill to keep you happy, or because some leeches are waving some fancy flags somewhere in the safety of their TV studios.

In any event, this planet is not going to become a better place as long as bloodsuckers like you keep spreading nonsense.

[radon1]

I'd like to stop arguing about this.

Indeed, why don't you set a moratorium for yourself in relation to posting on the Ukrainian events. You are not really following them, you do not want to watch the pictures of people suffering there. You do not know, for example, that the draft-dodging is most widespread in the Ukrainian regions where the chest-beating "pro-western patriots" are most concentrated, and that the nosiest "patriots", ready to bring millions of victims "to the altar of victory", have no plans whatsoever to go to the frontline. You do not know numerous other details, nor are you really interested in them.

Instead of properly exploring the situation, you produce a bot-like spamish incessant word flow mostly devoid of any substance. "Putin is bad", what a novelty! If people want to know NYT narratives, they can read them in NYT, why reproduce them here at never-ending lengths.

[Sixstrings]

You are not really following them, you do not want to watch the pictures of people suffering there.

An article, trustworthy and written by a real journalist, about a death is as sad as seeing a picture of it. I don't need to see pictures of it.

And generally, in the US we're not as used to graphic images as I guess what's on Russian media.

These stories I read about Russian paratroopers that died in combat, are every bit as sad as those cyborgs and civilian deaths. My sense is that the articles are right, and Russian soldiers do not really want to be fighting in the Ukraine. And, according to the articles, I consistently see that they are not even told they are going to Ukraine.

They were never there: Russia's silence for families of troops killed in Ukraine http://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/jan/19/russia-official-silence-for-families-troops-killed-in-ukraine

200,000 people have died in Syria. That's sad too. What's worse Radon, do you stop a war when it's at 5,000 or do you let it get to 200,000?

If people want to know NYT narratives, they can read them in NYT, why reproduce them here at never-ending lengths.

First of all, opinion pieces are "narratives," yes -- that's "consensus forming," in the West. It's a "zeitgeist," in a democracy.

Secondly -- straight journalism, from reputable media, are not "narratives."

Third -- you do in fact want to be aware of the "narratives," even if you don't agree with them, because it's the "narratives" that indicate the consensus forming and what the West is going to do about something.

Fourth -- I will give the Ukraine topic up, because I can't keep at it anymore. I've done all I could do, I added my little voice to the maidan, and in the course of these discussions I've learned more than I ever expected to know about Putin, and Russia, and Ukraine. So now I am an informed voter, and if things ever get ww3 scary then I'll better able to handle that because I've already learned so much about it -- whereas people that have not been following it, will be in panic about it.

[Withnail]

What do you mean - troops? There are definitely people from Russia out there. But troops?

You posted this on 1/23, I think before the airport fight. Okay, all the press coverage of the final battle at donetsk airport talks about "thousands" of Russian Army in the fight.

We've been going around about this -- and Russia's ambassador to the rest of the world at the UN -- for a year now.

Russians keep saying there are no Russian Army in Ukraine. Ambassador from Lithuania:

Yes, the Lithuanian Ambassador to the UN is my go-to source on world events.

How could we doubt the word of an offical from a tiny country hostile to Russia mostly known for growing cabbages, oh and neo Nazism.

[Ulenspiegel]

Withnail,

it is better to trust Russian media which sold the deaths of the Russian paratroopers as accidents during vacations.

Sorry, you are a clown.

[Withnail]

Withnail,

it is better to trust Russian media which sold the deaths of the Russian paratroopers as accidents during vacations.

Sorry, you are a clown.

I warn you not to insult other posters.

If you want to make claims, you'll need to provide links.

[Strummer]

Withnail,

it is better to trust Russian media which sold the deaths of the Russian paratroopers as accidents during vacations.

Sorry, you are a clown.

Are you aware than most of the published lists of the "killed russian soldiers" presented by Elena Vasilieva turned out to be fake? Names taken from lists of regional soccer teams, lists of high school graduates, etc...

[Withnail]

Withnail,

it is better to trust Russian media which sold the deaths of the Russian paratroopers as accidents during vacations.

Sorry, you are a clown.

Are you aware than most of the published lists of the "killed russian soldiers" presented by Elena Vasilieva turned out to be fake? Names taken from lists of regional soccer teams, lists of high school graduates, etc...

A while back there was a guy from Rostov reported dead in Ukraine who posted on his social media page that he definitely wasn't dead and had never been to Ukraine or joined the military, though he was considering it as a career.

[radon1]

https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=660114257426416

America's Leading Russia Specialist: European Union Deeply Divided over Ukraine Crisis

Professor Stephen Cohen, a contributing editor at The Nation, talks about how European nations have vastly different views on Ukraine and the EU's hostile policy towards Russia

[dissident]

https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=660114257426416

America's Leading Russia Specialist: European Union Deeply Divided over Ukraine Crisis

Professor Stephen Cohen, a contributing editor at The Nation, talks about how European nations have vastly different views on Ukraine and the EU's hostile policy towards Russia

Cohen is now the target of resurgent US McCarthyism.

http://www.nytimes.com/2015/01/29/arts/ ... .html?_r=0

As we see above in this very thread all the yapping the west about freedom of thought and freedom of speech is so much vapid BS.

[Withnail]

https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=660114257426416

America's Leading Russia Specialist: European Union Deeply Divided over Ukraine Crisis

Professor Stephen Cohen, a contributing editor at The Nation, talks about how European nations have vastly different views on Ukraine and the EU's hostile policy towards Russia

Cohen is now the target of resurgent US McCarthyism.

http://www.nytimes.com/2015/01/29/arts/ ... .html?_r=0

As we see above in this very thread all the yapping the west about freedom of thought and freedom of speech is so much vapid BS.

We must all be completely oblivious to the reality of today's Ukraine, and pretend it's a democracy being attacked by bad Russia for no reason at all.