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Russia says it welcomes US involvement in Ukraine

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Re: Russia says it welcomes US involvement in Ukraine

Unread postby americandream » Sun 09 Nov 2014, 06:05:39

SeaGypsy wrote:Isn't it weird AD, the parallel universe where Australia is anti American. Wow.


Sixstring is in the backyard so it doesnt count. Just so as we are aware and don't get taken for a ride, we are doing ok.
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Re: Russia says it welcomes US involvement in Ukraine

Unread postby ROCKMAN » Sun 09 Nov 2014, 09:55:23

Being a geologist I like to stick with simple explanations. The US and EU involvement in the relationship between Russia and the Ukraine? So far Russia and its supporters have conducted their efforts on the ground with no physical interference from the US or EU countries. Russia has taken some financial hits due to the sanctions by the US/EU. But it has also gained hundreds of $billions in fossil fuel assets. It is also receiving $billions on past due NG bills from the Ukraine, guaranteed payments of future Ukrainian NG purchases and the continued sale of hundreds of $billions in future oil/NG sales to the EU. And IMHO much of this as a result of US involvement in the situation including its influence on the govts of the EU countries.

Bottom line I don't see Putin having bad net feelings about US involvement in the Ukraine situation. So far he's way ahead on the scoreboard IMHO.
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Re: Russia says it welcomes US involvement in Ukraine

Unread postby JuanP » Sun 09 Nov 2014, 10:01:38

Six, I usually ignore your comments because I consider you a delusional denialist American exceptionalist, but I completely agree that Kerry is no match for Lavrov and Obama is not a match for Putin, either. You could extend that to American politicians are not a match for Russian politicians, in general. I know I wouldn't want to be anything you are, six, you are a bad loser, man, filled with hate, resentment, and envy towards other people.

It is the USA that sided with Nazis and fascists, not Russia. It is the USA that backed a violent armed coup with snipers against a democratically elected president in a foreign country. It is the USA that started the Ukrainian civil war. It is the USA that supports, finances, and approves daily of ethnic cleansing, genocide, and crimes against humanity all over the world. It is the USA that is the most hated country in the world.

You are an ignorant idiot, six! It is because of assholes like you that most of humanity hates your people, your government, and your country. You suck, man! The American government sucks, too. Grow a pair and face the truth, you are a COWARD! You are not worth the air you breathe!
Last edited by JuanP on Sun 09 Nov 2014, 11:12:15, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Russia says it welcomes US involvement in Ukraine

Unread postby Tanada » Sun 09 Nov 2014, 10:04:09

ROCKMAN wrote:Being a geologist I like to stick with simple explanations. The US and EU involvement in the relationship between Russia and the Ukraine? So far Russia and its supporters have conducted their efforts on the ground with no physical interference from the US or EU countries. Russia has taken some financial hits due to the sanctions by the US/EU. But it has also gained hundreds of $billions in fossil fuel assets. It is also receiving $billions on past due NG bills from the Ukraine, guaranteed payments of future Ukrainian NG purchases and the continued sale of hundreds of $billions in future oil/NG sales to the EU. And IMHO much of this as a result of US involvement in the situation including its influence on the govts of the EU countries.

Bottom line I don't see Putin having bad net feelings about US involvement in the Ukraine situation. So far he's way ahead on the scoreboard IMHO.


Yup, Putin has the USA dancing to his tune. The baton of world leadership has been tossed up into the air, the question is who will grab it as it comes into reach? My money is on China, but Russia could still manage to snatch it first.
Alfred Tennyson wrote:We are not now that strength which in old days
Moved earth and heaven, that which we are, we are;
One equal temper of heroic hearts,
Made weak by time and fate, but strong in will
To strive, to seek, to find, and not to yield.
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Re: Russia says it welcomes US involvement in Ukraine

Unread postby americandream » Sun 09 Nov 2014, 14:19:05

Tanada wrote:
ROCKMAN wrote:Being a geologist I like to stick with simple explanations. The US and EU involvement in the relationship between Russia and the Ukraine? So far Russia and its supporters have conducted their efforts on the ground with no physical interference from the US or EU countries. Russia has taken some financial hits due to the sanctions by the US/EU. But it has also gained hundreds of $billions in fossil fuel assets. It is also receiving $billions on past due NG bills from the Ukraine, guaranteed payments of future Ukrainian NG purchases and the continued sale of hundreds of $billions in future oil/NG sales to the EU. And IMHO much of this as a result of US involvement in the situation including its influence on the govts of the EU countries.

Bottom line I don't see Putin having bad net feelings about US involvement in the Ukraine situation. So far he's way ahead on the scoreboard IMHO.


Yup, Putin has the USA dancing to his tune. The baton of world leadership has been tossed up into the air, the question is who will grab it as it comes into reach? My money is on China, but Russia could still manage to snatch it first.


Obama is the consummate bourgeoisie politician. You misjudge him at your own folly.
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Re: Russia says it welcomes US involvement in Ukraine

Unread postby ROCKMAN » Sun 09 Nov 2014, 16:15:58

T - "Putin has the USA dancing to his tune." Hmm...I don't know if I would go that far. But I suspect Putin considers these minor net wins in the short term and potentially big long term wins. As far as misjudging President Obama I'm pretty sure he'll be long out office before the more significant aspects of Putin's actions come to bear.
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Re: Russia says it welcomes US involvement in Ukraine

Unread postby Sixstrings » Sun 09 Nov 2014, 19:31:17

JuanP wrote:Grow a pair and face the truth, you are a COWARD! You are not worth the air you breathe!


Why don't you calm down just a bit. It's an internet forum, people talk smack and shoot the breeze.

It's not my intent to be a troll that has South American strangers hating me because I empathize with Ukrainian strangers in the Maidan.

Juan -- they waved EU and US flags in the Maidan, not your country's. It's my elected representative that will have to decide in a few months whether to send them arms or not, or what kind of arms, and eventually whether to send advisors or not, or whatever other kind of involvement.

My vote has a say in things -- if I vote left then it all goes one way, if I vote right then that's tougher neocon government.

Russia-Ukraine crisis is in the top 2 foreign policy problems the US has right now. As a responsible voter I have to be aware of these issues. You may not like my style, but I'll tell ya something having internet flame arguments is at least talking and learning about a subject.

As long as it's not such bad karma that strangers in South America are cursing me, "Six you are not worth the air you breathe!" Holy cow.

Here's the good that has been done from me and these Ukraine threads and all the back and forth:

* If we actually do wind up with a serious business confrontation with Russia down the road, I've had to the benefit of actually talking to Russians -- albeit text on a forum, but still. "Russians" won't be a faceless enemy that's so easy to get on a hate bandwagon about.

The truth is, I'd be thinking about Radon over there. I like Radon, he's a bit of alright. I like Dissident, too, from his science posts.

* I've just learned so much about the topic, in general. If someone at the holiday dinner table asks me "what's this Ukraine thing about" -- I'm the one person in my circle that's capable of informing these other voters.

* At least I'm objective and thoroughly try to understand all sides. How many on the pro Russia side have genuinely tried to understand the people in "Kiev" and what drove them to protest in the Maidan and wave EU and US flags.

Did you ever listen to them? It's on youtube, you can hear them speak for themselves. There's been plenty of coverage on this, from journalist and documentaries, to just Ukrainians speaking for themselves so the world can know what's going on.

Did you ever listen to them?

Who is the one with the simplistic views here, I gather you are just in the "the CIA gave them those flags to wave" camp.

Bottom line -- I don't think the US gov is going to let west Ukraine fall at this point, anymore than Russia will let Crimea fall. It's a bit set in stone there, Ukraine is an ally now, and Russia has Crimea and they have the more pro-Russian east.

So that's the situation, we'll see where it goes from here.

If "Kiev" ever starts doing something horrible, worse than the other side, then I'd be the first to start bitching about that the same as I bitch about Russia and free speech and things.

And in the middle, I just empathize with those protesters that were in the Maidan. Juan, these people and their president spoke at our Congress asking for our help -- that does not happen every day of the week -- we can't ignore them, we have to listen to them and give it due consideration.

And then Poles and Latvians and Finns and Swedes are all clamoring too, they were saying the USA isn't around anymore where are you guys you need to show up over here. These are just facts, these are US allies, you can't tell me I can't give a darn or care.
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Re: Russia says it welcomes US involvement in Ukraine

Unread postby Sixstrings » Sun 09 Nov 2014, 20:09:08

And another thing --

I definitely won't ever give up on Poland. I have some friends in Poland. So that one's not up for debate, I like Russian people too but I have some friends in Poland we can't ever give up on Poland.

I know Russia is never going to roll over that Polish border, but I'm just saying, that would really make me sick in my stomach to ever see that happen and just watch it on CNN and Poland fall, and I'd worry about the people I know there.

You have to understand USA has some deep ties with some of these places. Some of them are a third rail like Israel, we can't just watch them fall, it's not gonna happen.

And you want to know something else?

If one of your country's neighbors invaded you, or if you had some god awful horrible natural disaster, guess who it would be leading to help you out? It would be the USA. I get tired of all this anti-americanism, like we are so horrible -- that is the fact of the matter, if something bad happened where you are then it's the USA that would be there for you.

I know I'm annoying you and other people on this forum, but I'm just trying to give that counter-argument and counter all the anti-americanism that's swung too far to the extreme where people don't even recognize the basic facts about all the good this country does.

That's the God's honest truth -- if your nation were invaded, or some catastrophic natural disaster or an ebola or something, this USA you dislike so much is the only power on earth that irrationally cares about other people for no apparently good reason.
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Re: Russia says it welcomes US involvement in Ukraine

Unread postby Sixstrings » Sun 09 Nov 2014, 21:54:40

SeaGypsy wrote:Isn't it weird AD, the parallel universe where Australia is anti American. Wow.


I've seen Aussie tv on youtube, and sometimes it just has a really jolting anti-American tone and bent to it.

It's not something I'm used to seeing in any english language media, British or Canadian etc.

To be fair, I've seen some horrible rank anti-american stuff from German tv.

Australia is stuck on "all war is bad" and they've been beating that drum and beating us over the head with it since Iraq. Now Australia lost so many Aussies on that airliner that got shot down, and suddenly some folks are angry right?

Did Australia's PM say he is going to "shirt front" Putin (rugby term), or did he not say that?

Would it not have been helpful if Australia could be on board and supportive, *before* they get directly hit like that?
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Re: Russia says it welcomes US involvement in Ukraine

Unread postby Sixstrings » Sun 09 Nov 2014, 22:10:52

US Alarmed Over Reports of Russian Buildup in E. Ukraine

The White House voiced "grave concern" Sunday over reports of military reinforcements pouring into eastern Ukraine from neighboring Russia, including the cross-border transfer of heavy weapons and tanks.

National Security Council spokeswoman Bernadette Meehan also warned that any move by pro-Russian rebels to seize more territory in Ukraine's embattled east would be seen as a "blatant violation" of a cease-fire deal with the Kyiv government.

The latest U.S. warning comes as European monitors reported convoys of heavy weapons and armor moving into the east.
http://www.voanews.com/content/shelling-rocks-ukraine-donetsk/2513618.html


Close military encounters between Russia and the west ‘at cold war levels’

Close military encounters between Russia and the west have jumped to cold war levels, with 40 dangerous or sensitive incidents recorded in the past eight months alone, according to a new report published on Monday.

The report, Dangerous Brinkmanship by the European Leadership Network, logs a series of “highly-disturbing” incidents since the Ukrainian crisis began earlier this year, including an alarming near-collision between a Russian reconnaissance plane and a passenger plane taking off from Denmark in March with 132 passengers on board.

What made the incident especially dangerous was that the Russian plane did not have on its transponders, the usual method of signalling its presence to other aircraft.
http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/nov/10/close-military-encounters-russia-west-cold-war


You guys say I'm crazy, but read the articles right in front of your eyes. A Russian Air Force plane almost collided with a Danish airliner, it could have killed 132 Danes, all the Russian military craft in the skies in Europe have no transponders on, there's no way for civilian airliners to know they are there.
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Re: Russia says it welcomes US involvement in Ukraine

Unread postby SeaGypsy » Sun 09 Nov 2014, 22:29:56

At the end of the day, Australia is usually the first ally of the USA to stick forces into joint operations. Abbott announced logistic support to the Kurds in Iraq before Obama announced any action over the Yazidis in Iraq. We have relatively robust political discussion which when it involves cannon fodder, is always polarising. However, we have a very staunch record as an ally to the US & to Britain. To suggest otherwise is inane, a product of one sided reading of commentary, not facts of action.
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Re: Russia says it welcomes US involvement in Ukraine

Unread postby Sixstrings » Mon 10 Nov 2014, 00:36:29

SeaGypsy wrote:At the end of the day, Australia is usually the first ally of the USA to stick forces into joint operations. Abbott announced logistic support to the Kurds in Iraq before Obama announced any action over the Yazidis in Iraq. We have relatively robust political discussion which when it involves cannon fodder, is always polarising. However, we have a very staunch record as an ally to the US & to Britain. To suggest otherwise is inane, a product of one sided reading of commentary, not facts of action.


Well ok then, good. :P

Here's a good documentary by the way about Japan's military buildup:

Inside ​Japan's Controversial Military Expansion
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hcQTysyGwKQ


I think it's a good thing if Australia and Japan coordinate for defense, going forward in the future.

It'll just be up to you guys to keep the Japanese in check, you don't really want to start WWIII over a barren rock or a fishery, we don't want world war lightly.

I'm not sure about the Japanese, Shinzo Abe is a nationalist (by Japanese standards, anyhow). He was doing naval exercises with Russia recently.

China and Japan keep arguing about the 1940s and these rocks in the water.

But anyhow -- US taxpayer can't pay to defend two oceans forever, if Japan and Australia can -- responsibly -- take that over then it would be helpful.
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Re: Russia says it welcomes US involvement in Ukraine

Unread postby GregT » Tue 11 Nov 2014, 03:35:05

Not everyone in the world sees War as the answer 6, and not everyone sees segregation as the answer either. All of these countries that you continually comment on, are actually inhabited by millions of people, most of which only want to live their lives in peace. US 'taxpayers' have no right to be anywhere other than the USA. Your attitude sucks, and the world is getting fed up with attitudes like yours. Keep up the great work. Live by the sword, die by the sword.
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Re: Russia says it welcomes US involvement in Ukraine

Unread postby Sixstrings » Tue 11 Nov 2014, 04:34:11

GregT wrote:Not everyone in the world sees War as the answer 6, and not everyone sees segregation as the answer either.


EDIT: rephrase

I give up. I don't want all this bad karma negativity.

Unless "Kiev" turns into some kind of place that's worse than Putin's Russia, unless they go nazi and I start reading about human rights crackdown laws and a bunch of crap I'm against, unless all that happens, then I'm going to keep on supporting the kind of people like the Ukrainian you see in my avatar picture.

He was in the Maidon protests. He wants to join the EU. He wants to be European. He didn't want a dictator anymore. I support all that.

I don't want all this negativity, look, if I'm given a choice of two candidates and one will do more for Ukraine and I think that will help the situation then I'm gonna vote for that candidate along with other factors and all the usual stuff I consider when I vote.

If all this happened in 2012, I would have given a lot more credence to what Mitt Romney was saying about Russia, and maybe I would have voted Romney instead of Obama.

Also -- I have friends in poland, people I know and care about, and I will always vote to support Poland and defend it no matter what it takes. That's just the bottom line for me as a voter, you all are free to your views as well and to vote for Rand Paul or Libertarians or Green Party or whatever.
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Re: Russia says it welcomes US involvement in Ukraine

Unread postby Kylon » Tue 11 Nov 2014, 22:04:48

I see it simply like this:

The United States is going to involve itself in Ukraine whether or not Russia wants it. So inviting the United States into the Ukraine has no political cost for the Russian government, because the U.S will go where it wants regardless of what Russia says, unless repelled by military force.

However, it makes the Russian government look much more considerate and willing to compromise. So on an international scale, there is no cost to the Russians, but there is an advantage by positively effecting the Russian government's image as wanting peace and compromise.

The more Russia looks like it wants peace and compromise, the easier it will be for Russia to do business with other nations in the future, the easier to form alliances, and the more credit/goodwill Russia has to use up when it decides to do something opportunistic and unpleasant, without provoking a negative reaction from other nations.

Basically what the Russian guy did was give Russia a bunch of free good PR.
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Re: Russia says it welcomes US involvement in Ukraine

Unread postby Sixstrings » Tue 11 Nov 2014, 23:39:08

Kylon wrote:I see it simply like this:

The United States is going to involve itself in Ukraine whether or not Russia wants it. So inviting the United States into the Ukraine has no political cost for the Russian government, because the U.S will go where it wants regardless of what Russia says, unless repelled by military force.


Well, actually, if you read the quote Lavrov didn't even say anything. It's diplomatic words that mean nothing.

He said something like "If the US would be helpful reaching a settlement between both sides then we'd welcome US involvement."

That's like lawyer speak, it doesn't actually mean anything.

All that kind of statement means is, a) stalling and kicking sand in air, and b) they want to avoid the upcoming senate giving Ukraine any arms or significant help.

It's strategy, it's diplomacy, it's smart, but it doesn't mean anything.

When the senate does finally get around to the Ukraine bills, look for Russia to start talking and seeming to be doing something positive -- then the bills will be watered down in the US senate and everyone will forget about it, and as soon as they do then comes the next round in Ukraine, from Russia.

Rinse and repeat. Maybe Kazakstan up next. We shall see, we live in interesting times!
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Re: Russia says it welcomes US involvement in Ukraine

Unread postby Keith_McClary » Wed 19 Nov 2014, 12:14:20

Sixstrings wrote:Did Australia's PM say he is going to "shirt front" Putin (rugby term), or did he not say that?

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