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US navy sailors assulted by Turkish youth, bags over heads

For discussions of events and conditions not necessarily related to Peak Oil.

Re: US navy sailors assulted by Turkish youth, bags over hea

Unread postby Sixstrings » Mon 17 Nov 2014, 18:40:28

PrestonSturges wrote:You know Six, the way you have to keep telling people "I'm not a fascist" is sort of like someone that keeps saying "I'm not gay!" At some point you should just come out of the closet, because you aren't fooling anyone.


I have to say that so I make sure to not become a fascist.

I got right winger in my blood, Preston. It's easy to go off the wagon and start railing about immigrants and before you know you really are a hateful fascist nationalist.

I'm reformed -- I may not vote O again though, if this keeps nagging me that a Reagan or Dick Cheney would have handled all this stuff with Russia.

It's same as Reagan Democrats pulled that lever against Carter.

I'm one of those Obama Republicans that gave Democrats a chance. That party has to handle things and come through or they don't get our vote again.

You can't just have open doors on the border. You can't just keep screwing up foreign policy, and I sit here and I'm thinking "omg things are not getting handled right, we need a Reagan we need a Reagan but we don't have one."

If I keep feeling that way I will pull the lever for R in '16.

Anyhow -- it's important to know what nationalism and fascism is, conservatives need to know it, you don't want to go off the wagon into fascism. Here's an example with the Republican Party: they got really hateful about that crisis of kids coming over the border. And O doing nothing about border control. So they were right, but they went too far, and at some point conservatives realized -- oh wait these are just kids.

And you saw religious conservatives send aid, and even Glenn Beck sent aid.

Do you get me there? There's a line. Sometimes the right wing is correct, but the right wing is reactionary and you don't want to spin off into over-correction of liberal excess. You never want to spin off into McCarthy communist hearings etc.

And all the stuff about Obama, it's been too much over the years, too much blind hate.

In other words, we really need some kind of moderate Republicans back, I think.
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Re: US navy sailors assulted by Turkish youth, bags over hea

Unread postby Sixstrings » Mon 17 Nov 2014, 19:21:26

Preston: Okay you are right, if someone has to say "okay I'm not a nationalist, but..." then that means they are saying something nationalist but trying to qualify the remark and neutralize it.

That's true in language wherever it is.. whenever anybody says blah blah BUT blah blah -- you ignore everything before the BUT and what they really mean is after the BUT. :lol:

Or, it just means someone is on fence about something.

If this helps you understand things, wayyyyy back in the day I was a devoted Limbaugh listener. I just evolved from that, a long time ago. I can't sit and listen to Rush or a Hannity on most things, it's just too closed minded and it's like propaganda and it's too simplistic and it's a lot of dog whistles and I'm wise and old enough now to know that.

OTOH -- people go right wing when they feel under assault or taken advantage of, or feel like somebody that didn't earn it wants to take what they have from them.

So liberals need to watch that. Don't leave people feeling that way -- under threat, like they're the only ones not out smoking weed, like they're the only ones working and being responsible, and maybe crime is up and drugs are out of control but liberals will do nothing about it, and most of all conservative-minded people don't want to be pushed around by foreigners.

If you leave people feeling under assault, then they WILL swing hard right, every time, even in a place like France and the rest of Europe, increasingly.

We Americans usually do the right thing. Look at 9/11 -- there were some protests about mosques being built but then people remembered what America is about and stopped that.

Now, what happens though if the ISIS thing gets worse and it's total chaos over here and people getting beheaded. Preston, folks may swing super hard right, civil liberties and liberal feel good stuff goes right out the window if there is an emergency and the town is on fire and God forbid frickin' ISIS is beheading people.

In WWII, we honestly overreacted, putting Japanese Americans in internment camps.

It's not that reactionaries are wrong about the things they are concerned about, there's just a tricky middle ground there, you have to address real problems and can't ignore them like liberals do. But you also have to be aware of what racism and fascism and hate really is and not spin off into that.
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Re: US navy sailors assulted by Turkish youth, bags over hea

Unread postby Sixstrings » Mon 17 Nov 2014, 20:06:25

careinke wrote:Six,

When I was in Turkey for Provide Comfort (Dropping food to the Kurds at the end of Desert Storm), the PKK were Kurds sneaking into Turkey from Northern Iraq.

As a matter of fact I watched Turkish F-4s bomb the Kurds (PKK) in Northern Iraq. Then about two hours later we ran an airdrop to them giving them food. One of the weirdest days of my life.

Anyway, I doubt the PKK is mad at the US for supporting the Kurds.


Yeah, that's pretty messed up. Another way to look at it though is that you know, our gov really can't just give orders to allies and make them do what we want or not bomb Kurds.

Things are complicated. Enemies of enemies, enemy of my enemy is my friend, that whole region is a complex mess like that. Turkey's in nato and has countered Russia for so long, but then we've got kurds that have been with us, but the kurds and turks have a problem.

Turks bombed the kurds, and you airdropped relief to the kurds. Well at least you were the good guy there, not your fault Turks bombed them that's Turkey's business -- you dropped relief aid. What other air force ever drops any relief aid, anywhere -- very few.

About the kurds -- who is PKK? The youth group that went looking for these sailors are "turkish nationalists." Turns out their reason is because "Americans kill people" or some such. But these nationalists are actually opposed to the conservative muslim gov in Turkey. So we've got it from both sides, anti-americanism from the religious fundies and the secularists.

Or that's my understanding from reading about it, maybe Keith can chime in and point out where I'm wrong.
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