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Natural Gas Vehicles

Discussions of conventional and alternative energy production technologies.

Re: Natural Gas Vehicles

Unread postby Lore » Tue 18 Sep 2012, 20:48:35

Plantagenet wrote:
Lore wrote:Even small ICE transport on NG will require a vast network of stations to service them and the logistics to supply them. ...


We already have a vast network of stations across the country ideally located to serve CNG cars---they are called "gas stations".

---We don't even have to change the name. :lol:


Right, none of them are serving up CNG. I don't live in Italy. In all of Michigan right now there are only 16 public CNG centers. None in my area. All of them require a means for the NG to get to them in volume. I don't expect to see one soon in my local village where there isn't even access to a pipe line for NG heating. :roll:

http://www.altfuelprices.com/stations/CNG/Michigan/
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Re: Natural Gas Vehicles

Unread postby Plantagenet » Tue 18 Sep 2012, 20:55:35

Lore wrote:
Plantagenet wrote:
We already have a vast network of stations across the country ideally located to serve CNG cars---they are called "gas stations".

---We don't even have to change the name. :lol:


Right, none of them are serving up CNG.


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Maps showing locations of alternative fuel gas stations across the USA
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Re: Natural Gas Vehicles

Unread postby Lore » Tue 18 Sep 2012, 21:05:23

Plantagenet wrote:
Lore wrote:
Plantagenet wrote:
We already have a vast network of stations across the country ideally located to serve CNG cars---they are called "gas stations".

---We don't even have to change the name. :lol:


Right, none of them are serving up CNG.


Be patient, grasshopper. Even the grass takes time to grow.

Maps showing locations of alternative fuel gas stations across the USA


As I insinuated earlier, by that time most of us will all be walking.

At least in Italy when their economy collapses and no one is shipping them LNG anymore they can use their CNG cars as dehydrators for their sun dried tomatoes and take the train.
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Re: Natural Gas Vehicles

Unread postby seenmostofit » Tue 18 Sep 2012, 21:19:01

Lore wrote: In all of Michigan right now there are only 16 public CNG centers. None in my area. All of them require a means for the NG to get to them in volume. I don't expect to see one soon in my local village where there isn't even access to a pipe line for NG heating.


Fortunate then that most Americans don't like in an the area like yours. People have been fleeing rural and small town environments over the past century for a reason, one of them being to go where the opportunity were. Hicks in the sticks (no offense intended, certainly rural Michigan comes nowhere close to Appalachia and real hilljacks) will just have to get by with really expensive liquid fuels, whereas their city cousins get all the cool neato new stuff.

If you want the cool neato peak oil saving stuff, you might want to consider relocating?
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Re: Natural Gas Vehicles

Unread postby seenmostofit » Tue 18 Sep 2012, 21:20:35

Lore wrote:As I insinuated earlier, by that time most of us will all be walking.


Peak oil didn't get us walking, certainly there doesn't appear to be anything on the horizon as bad as that.
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Re: Natural Gas Vehicles

Unread postby Lore » Tue 18 Sep 2012, 23:02:47

seenmostofit wrote:
Lore wrote: In all of Michigan right now there are only 16 public CNG centers. None in my area. All of them require a means for the NG to get to them in volume. I don't expect to see one soon in my local village where there isn't even access to a pipe line for NG heating.


Fortunate then that most Americans don't like in an the area like yours. People have been fleeing rural and small town environments over the past century for a reason, one of them being to go where the opportunity were. Hicks in the sticks (no offense intended, certainly rural Michigan comes nowhere close to Appalachia and real hilljacks) will just have to get by with really expensive liquid fuels, whereas their city cousins get all the cool neato new stuff.

If you want the cool neato peak oil saving stuff, you might want to consider relocating?


I'll just bet that you also run into burning houses when they catch fire.
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Re: Natural Gas Vehicles

Unread postby seenmostofit » Wed 19 Sep 2012, 02:22:36

Lore wrote:I'll just bet that you also run into burning houses when they catch fire.


Only once. And it was a barn. Managed to get two horses out.

That was back when I lived as a hick in the sticks. I fled as soon as I turned 18 of course. Even this poor country boy knew there wasn't much to be had in rural America.

But NG vehicles? Nah...use the stuff to make electricity, we have plenty of it, the infrastructure for its distribution is already in place across most of the country, and you can cantrol emissions better when the point source is one exhaust rather than thousands.

I'll bet even YOU have electric, way back out there where you live. You might not be able to drive to the next town over and back on one charge, but that isn't the rest of the countries fault.
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Re: Natural Gas Vehicles

Unread postby ronwagn » Thu 08 Nov 2012, 13:23:01

I am an advocate of natural gas fuel for all purposes including fuel. Please use my links as a resource. I am not in the business.

Natural gas is the future of energy. It is replacing dirty old coal plants, and dangerous expensive nuclear plants. It will fuel cars, vans, buses, locomotives, aircraft, ships, tractors, engines of all kinds. It costs far less. It will help keep us out of more useless wars, where we shed our blood and money. It lowers CO2 emissions. Over 2,600 natural gas story links on my blog. An annotated bibliography of live links, updated daily. The big picture of natural gas.
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Re: Natural Gas Vehicles

Unread postby Plantagenet » Thu 08 Nov 2012, 16:42:37

Thanks Ron.

Do you have a natural gas vehicle yourself? How do you like it? 8)
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Re: Natural Gas Vehicles

Unread postby ronwagn » Sun 11 Nov 2012, 21:40:18

I have a lot of information that I want to share. 2600 free links to natural gas stories. It includes a section on conversions, near the top. I would like to answer any questions. My blog is ronwagnersrants.blogspot.com

1. There are several American vehicles now available, mostly commercial in nature. Big trucks of all kinds. The pickup trucks are heavy duty. There are also vans. Dodge, Chevrolet, GMC, Ford all now make pickups. They are more expensive, but the payback could be a couple of years, and they will last a lot longer. People who burn a lot of fuel are the ones that save the most money, so are most motivated make the switch. The pickup trucks are all bifuel, to my knowledge. They all have either a small or large, gasoline tank, and automatically switch fuels. The Chevy can go up to 600 miles on both fuels. Vans are available also, but most are natgas only. The Civics are great cars, and one recently went across the country and back on CNG. They are natgas only.
2. There is a pretty good infrastructure for CNG filling stations. See cngprices.com for the map. Some places are about $1.00 per gas gallon equivalent or GGE. DGE is diesel gallon equivalent. Methane is natural gas.
3. The whole world is finding amazing amounts of natural gas. My prediction is that the world will all have low priced natural gas in twenty years. Natural gas is much cleaner than coal. Also cleaner than diesel or gasoline.
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Re: Natural Gas Vehicles

Unread postby ronwagn » Sun 11 Nov 2012, 21:52:32

Hi Plantgenet. I do not have a NGV. I live in Decatur Illinois, which is central Illinois. I am between Chicago, Indianapolis, and St. Louis. My closest station is in Peoria, about eighty miles away. I am an unpaid advocate for natural gas for the above stated reasons. Well I have made $20 in six months. I am not in it for money. I am a retired psychiatric RN. I am waiting for Decatur to get a station or prices on home pumps to come down. My wife will retire in a few years and I want a new CNG vehicle that will tow a trailer. Pickups are already available by GM, Ford, and Dodge. Have you seen my blog? Many companies and universities are working on better CNG tanks, and far cheaper yet better home fueling pumps. GE and Eaton are two of the companies. There are federal grants to support this. Texas A&M and University of Texas are recipients. I can answer just about any non technical question about natural gas, or natural gas vehicle availability.
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Re: Natural Gas Vehicles

Unread postby ralfy » Sun 11 Nov 2012, 21:57:14

From what I remember, the IEA reports that energy production from all oil and gas sources worldwide will increase by around 9 pct for the next twenty years, but this is based on the assumption that conventional production will not drop. The same organization reports that energy demand has to go up the equivalent of one Saudi Arabia every seven years or so (or something like 1.5 pct a year) in order to maintain economic growth. Another report states that it will take decades to make the transition to other sources of energy.
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Re: Natural Gas Vehicles

Unread postby ronwagn » Sun 11 Nov 2012, 22:55:46

Energy conservation is as important as production. Natural gas has many sources: shale gas, coal seam gas, peat bogs, sewage, farms, biomass etc. Methane hydrates is estimated to have ten times what is on land. Methane hydrates are ocean based.
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Re: Natural Gas Vehicles

Unread postby Plantagenet » Mon 12 Nov 2012, 00:58:43

ronwagn wrote:Hi Plantgenet. I do not have a NGV.... Pickups are already available by GM, Ford, and Dodge. Have you seen my blog?...I can answer just about any non technical question about natural gas, or natural gas vehicle availability.


1. I haven't seen your blog. I'll check it out.

2. Are some "flex-fuel" pickups on the way? Vehicles that can run on BOTH gasoline and CNG?
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Re: Natural Gas Vehicles

Unread postby Tanada » Mon 12 Nov 2012, 08:07:06

Plantagenet wrote:2. Are some "flex-fuel" pickups on the way? Vehicles that can run on BOTH gasoline and CNG?


I have asked this question several times without a useful response. If I could get a duel fueled vehicle today I would be doing cost benefit analysis to see how valuable they are. I know it is possible because the Propane delivery companies around here all use duel fueled systems that run propane or gasoline and they alternate on a regular schedule to keep both systems working while doing the majority of their driving on the cheaper fuel. I know of no reason why the same could not be done with CNG/Gasoline, but nobody seems to be building them.
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Re: Natural Gas Vehicles

Unread postby Graeme » Mon 10 Dec 2012, 15:32:04

First Stage of ‘America’s Natural Gas Highway’ Completed

One of which is the completion of the first stage of what is being called Clean Energy Fuels Corp’s “America’s Natural Gas Highway” (ANGH). This was marked with the finished construction of an LNG truck fueling station in Matthews, Missouri this month.

The ANGH is a network of liquefied natural gas (LNG) truck fueling stations established to support long-haul, heavy-duty goods movement along major interstate corridors throughout the United States.

Speaking at last week’s American Trucking Associations Summit on Natural Gas in Trucking, Andrew Littlefair, Clean Energy president and CEO, said, “We have created America’s Natural Gas Highway to support the growing number of long-haul truckers and shippers who are deploying factory-built, heavy-duty trucks powered by natural gas fuel. LNG-fueled trucks can now travel the country and reap the benefits of fuel cost savings, reduced dependence on foreign oil, and the lower emissions profile that characterizes this abundant American resource.”

The company says that by the end of 2012, Clean Energy will have completed 70 new LNG truck fuel stations along highways that link major U.S. metropolitan areas. Many of these stations are located at existing Pilot-Flying J truck stops.


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Re: Natural Gas Vehicles

Unread postby Graeme » Thu 22 Aug 2013, 00:35:34

Is the Growing U.S. Natural Gas Infrastructure a Transportation Transformation?

About 30,000 natural-gas fueling stations will be operating worldwide by 2020, highlighting the increasing potential for natural gas as a transportation fuel in the United States and globally, asserts a new study by Navigant Research. However, a study this year by the National Academy of Sciences (NAS) identified a “lack of refueling infrastructure” as one of the chief barriers to development of natural-gas vehicle (NGV) transportation.

Such infrastructure — getting natural gas from pipeline to fuel tank — “is in its early stage of development and requires massive expansion,” NAS maintains. In the meantime, “Regional, clustered development will remain the preferred model.”

The current boom in shale gas production and resultant low prices are driving the market penetration of natural gas as a transportation fuel. NGVs can be fueled by gas in two basic forms, compressed (CNG) or liquefied (LNG). LNG is currently used primarily for heavy-duty trucks. Prices fluctuate, but CNG tends to be $1 or $2 cheaper than an equivalent gallon of gasoline.

The U.S. Energy Information Administration estimates yearly world consumption of natural gas at 117.0 trillion cu ft in 2013 and projects that this will grow to 131.5 trillion by 2020. U.S. consumption stands at 25.3 trillion cu ft for 2013, set to grow to 26.3 trillion by 2020. The agency says that about 3 percent of transportation energy in the U.S. comes from natural gas, as opposed to 93 percent from petroleum. In turn, transportation uses about 3 percent of the natural-gas energy consumed in the U.S. High-oil-price scenarios could drive that to 4 percent by 2020 and to more than 10 percent by 2040.


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Global Unconventional Gas Market is Expected to Reach USD 126.93 Billion in 2019: Transparency Market Research
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Re: Natural Gas Vehicles

Unread postby Subjectivist » Tue 25 Mar 2014, 11:40:25

I recently came into a small inheritance and am considering trading in my 2000 Civic for a flex fuel car with fewer years of wear and tear on it. Does anyone have experience with natural gas/gasoline cars that have dual fuel systems? Any pointers would be greatly appreciated.
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Re: Natural Gas Vehicles

Unread postby Tanada » Tue 25 Mar 2014, 18:58:22

http://media.gm.com/media/us/en/gm/news ... mpala.html


GM to offer only manufacturer-produced full-size bi-fuel sedan in North America
Designed to capitalize on plentiful clean, domestic natural gas
Will be sold to retail and fleet buyers as a 2015 model
CEO repeats call for consumer-driven national energy policy

WASHINGTON, D.C. – General Motors will build a Chevrolet Impala sedan for retail and fleet customers that operates on either gasoline or compressed natural gas (CNG), GM Chairman and CEO Dan Akerson announced today.

It is the only manufacturer-produced full-size bi-fuel sedan and expected to go on sale next summer as a 2015 model. Akerson announced the car during remarks at an energy summit marking the 40th anniversary of the OPEC Oil Embargo.

“OPEC Oil Embargo + 40: A National Summit on Energy Security,” was sponsored by the nonpartisan group Securing America’s Future Energy, or SAFE. Prominent political, business and military leaders assessed the current state of America’s oil dependence since the 1973 oil embargo

Akerson said the bi-fuel Impala is an example of using affordable technology to reduce oil consumption and save consumers money at the pump.

“We know that U.S. energy security won’t come from a one-off moonshot,” Akerson said. “It will flow from our systematic investment in technology and innovation... our drive to get more from existing energy sources and renewables... our commitment to conservation... and it will be assured by fully and safely exploiting our shale gas reserves.”

Natural gas is a cleaner-burning transportation fuel compared to petroleum products, and costs significantly less than gasoline at current prices. CNG vehicles typically have 20 percent fewer greenhouse gas emissions than gasoline-powered cars, according to the California Air Resources Board.

The Chevrolet Impala bi-fuel sedan addresses the range anxiety issue associated with vehicles that run only on natural gas, Akerson said. It features a factory-engineered and fully warranted powertrain that switches seamlessly from CNG to gasoline. Total range is expected to be up to 500 miles.

Akerson said that in addition to advanced technologies and alternative fuels, achieving energy security will require productive partnerships between energy companies, utilities, environmental groups, labor unions, universities and manufacturers.

GM, he said, is working closely with 14 of the country’s largest unions and environmental groups through the Blue-Green Alliance, and has relationships with regulators that are “more constructive than ever.”

Akerson also reiterated a call he made earlier this year for the Administration and Congress to create a new, consumer-driven national energy policy from a position of strength and abundance.

For its part, GM is committed to saving 12 billion gallons of gasoline in its 2011 to 2017 model year vehicles – offsetting nearly a year of crude imports from the Persian Gulf – with technologies that include lighter materials to reduce vehicle mass, alternative fuels, clean diesel and electrification.

In addition to the Chevrolet Volt, Chevrolet Spark EV and the upcoming Cadillac ELR, GM is introducing start-stop technology standard on the 2014 Chevrolet Malibu helping the midsize sedan achieve 25 mpg city/36 mpg highway, and using electrification to boost fuel economy in the Buick Regal and LaCrosse sedans, which both get EPA-estimated 36 mpg hwy.
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