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Gasland2

A forum to either submit your own review of a book, video or audio interview, or to post reviews by others.

Gasland2

Unread postby Newfie » Mon 18 Nov 2013, 23:00:46

Just came back from seeing this film. I thought it was pretty well done. Obviously a set up for promoting activism.

My Wife and I were discussing what the movie was really about, for clearly there was a bigger message than fracking.

On the one hand it was about political corruption. But on another plane it is about the inevitability of humanity to consume to the last drop.

I'm kinda hoping Rockman will view it and share some thoughts, especially about water quality.
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Re: Gasland2

Unread postby ROCKMAN » Tue 19 Nov 2013, 09:14:43

Newfie - Found it and will try to watch sometime during the day. The opening shot is interesting but I hope the guy holding the flaming garden hose isn't the one who later admitted to hooking a hose to a propane tank. If it is that doesn't discredit the entire discussion but does put a tad propaganda scent to it.

You’ve seen my points before. There are/were problems in the New England states with poor regs and enforcement allowing bad disposal practices of produced frac fluids. As far as drilling activities damaging water wells and polluting fresh water aquifers is has happened and will continue to happen. That can't be denied by anyone. The critical question is the magnitude of the problem. OTOH there is no industrial activity (or even private activity) that has zero risks. I actually hope they have some INDEPENDENTLY DOCUMENTED cases of frac induced damage and not just more videos of flaming water wells. I could produce a film showing a hundred such flaming wells in Texas and PA which have no oil/NG wells drill anywhere close to them let alone frac’d wells. I once actually helped develop a NG reservoir that was trapped in a shallow fresh water aquifer. And just a year ago I drilled a well in Texas and found a 20’ thick NG sand at just 48’ below ground level. None of which proves that man-made methane contamination can’t happen. But it also means that just because methane is found in fresh water aquifers it was caused by drilling activity. If that’s the angle they try to hang the film on then I think they’ve actually done a disservice to their cause.

But let me watch the film.
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Re: Gasland2

Unread postby Newfie » Tue 19 Nov 2013, 17:31:44

Thanks Roc.
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Re: Gasland2

Unread postby John_A » Tue 19 Nov 2013, 19:13:55

ROCKMAN wrote:Newfie - Found it and will try to watch sometime during the day. The opening shot is interesting but I hope the guy holding the flaming garden hose isn't the one who later admitted to hooking a hose to a propane tank. If it is that doesn't discredit the entire discussion but does put a tad propaganda scent to it.


Ummmm...no...it would discredit the entire piece. But what would give it more CREDIT is to show what happens when a frack job is turned loose on the plumbing of the standard American house. Then people would realize how ridiculous it is to pretend that some slow lazy flame from alleged CH4 entering the water system (CH4 not itself being a part of a frack job) when in reality it would be more like a bomb hitting the place, said bomb looking like Old Faithful had suddenly decided to spring alive in one's basement.

Can't show that now can we...no sirree....knowing what drama a frack job can actually cause would then beg the question....why is it...exactly...that we can't find any examples of THOSE from the "frack job caused my house to begin oozing CH4" filmmakers.
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Re: Gasland2

Unread postby Newfie » Wed 20 Nov 2013, 10:11:01

Rock,

I've another request from you related to the above. This on is brought on because of some other comments about the JFK assassination, that poked me in a sore spot. I'll explain.

#1 - I've long felt the JFK job was a cover up. I hear (but can't watch..no TV) that Nova did documentary which, if reported to me correctly, has a bunch of very miss leading comments.

#2 - That go me thinking about how we are so often lied to, which go me thinking about some of the charges of eco-terrorrism that Gasland 2 brought up.

#3 - Here in PA we had this "Kids for Cash" scandal. Truly horrific stuff. Yet, I only know about it because I traverse the are going deer hunting. Most folks here in Philly know nothing of it. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kids_for_cash_scandal) I mean, good grief, if that can go on, what else is possible?

#4 - That brought me to you and your comments elsewhere about why PA doesn't have an extraction tax (if that is the right phrase.) Is it another form of corruption? Maybe that is the answer you were looking for, PA has no gas extraction tax because our (PA) government is getting paid off.

I did a quick google and found this article.

http://www.salon.com/2013/06/02/is_the_ ... s_partner/

I was wondering if, beyond the methane in water issue, if you reflect on this Salon article.
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Re: Gasland2

Unread postby jedrider » Sun 15 Mar 2015, 16:26:19

I've just watched this film having borrowed it from our local library. It is a really well-done documentary and very riveting at that. If anything in this film ISN'T true, then it is STILL a very compelling fictional story. If it is, in fact, TRUE, then it tells a clear story of the rapaciousness of capitalist endeavors, political corruption and environmental destruction on a scale that is shocking.

Anyway, he interviews a acknowledged expert in the field of geology and well-casings and shows some Schummberger provided-graphs of the failure rate of well casings as the geologist explains that it is not IF the well casings fail and the methane migrates to the water aquifers, but WHEN this will happen as casing failures are a practical certainty given the numbers involved.
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Re: Gasland2

Unread postby ROCKMAN » Sun 15 Mar 2015, 17:20:36

jed - "...but WHEN this will happen as casing failures are a practical certainty given the numbers involved." Very true. But who have you heard argue that csg failures will never happen? Certainly not from the Rockman. Not only do csg fail but oil tankers sink and put millions of gallons into the environment. That’s inevitable. And offshore wells blowout and kill hands and pollute the environment. That’s also inevitable. And school buses run over small children and kill them…also inevitable. And soccer mums run red lights and kill folks…also inevitable. And Predator rockets sometimes take out innocent civilians when they take out terrorists…also inevitable. Etc. Etc. Etc.

So the question is do we accept the rate of such events happening (despite the efforts to prevent them) for the sake of the benefits "we" gain? Of course, who is the "we"? Is "we" society in general or some specific individuals that don't directly benefit?

Back to the film: did the document the csg failure rate? And I mean DOCUMENT: name specific instances. And more to the point were those failures that specifically caused environmental damage? Personally the Rockman has experienced about a half dozen csg failures over his 40 years. And not once have they led to either fresh water aquifer or ground contamination. But they have resulted in the loss of $millions in capex and tens of $millions in production by the companies operating those wells. A very good reason companies try really hard to not let it happen.

So I'll tag you with a very subjective chore: what is the rate of incidence of the list I offered above that’s acceptable to you? IOW how many children killed by school buses would you find acceptable before you pushed for a ban on all school buses? How much oil leaked from sinking tankers is acceptable for you before you would push for a ban on most US oil imports? How many csg leaks causing aquifer contamination would you agree is acceptable before pushing for a ban of all frac’ng?
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Re: Gasland2

Unread postby jedrider » Sun 15 Mar 2015, 19:30:00

Hi Rockman. Yes people CAN die. An aquifer is FOREVER on a human scale.

Getting back to specific comments. The Schummberger graph said 50% of casings will fail in 30 years. Considering that fracking, specifically involves thousands of these per area, that is a CERTAINTY. In the gulf too, with the few BIG ONES, it is STILL a certainty. Amazing what a figure like 50% will do!
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Re: Gasland2

Unread postby dolanbaker » Mon 16 Mar 2015, 09:14:27

A quick question about casings, "what are the risks of a failure on a disused well?" I ask because there should be no pressure forcing fluids out, if anything the system should be stable and probably silted up.
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Re: Gasland2

Unread postby jedrider » Mon 16 Mar 2015, 09:32:24

dolanbaker wrote:A quick question about casings, "what are the risks of a failure on a disused well?" I ask because there should be no pressure forcing fluids out, if anything the system should be stable and probably silted up.


Don't know the answer here. However, if you think about it: What is the purpose of a Casing?? To EXTRACT fuel. Any, I mean, ANY other benefit must be incidental!
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Re: Gasland2

Unread postby Outcast_Searcher » Mon 16 Mar 2015, 16:10:55

jedrider wrote:Hi Rockman. Yes people CAN die. An aquifer is FOREVER on a human scale.

Getting back to specific comments. The Schummberger graph said 50% of casings will fail in 30 years. Considering that fracking, specifically involves thousands of these per area, that is a CERTAINTY. In the gulf too, with the few BIG ONES, it is STILL a certainty. Amazing what a figure like 50% will do!

And so if nothing is perfect, we will never do it. Sure. That's why we all live in caves, and insurance companies don't exist. :roll:

Do cranes ever fail? Yes they do. Yet we still build buildings. Does this mean all builders are evil mustache-twisting villians hoping to drop a crane on a family? No, it doesn't, despite the risk being nonzero. (This reminds me of the far left liberal "greens" complaining about all fuel production while flying, driving, heating their houses, and buying big piles of consumer crap. It's all someone ELSE's fault, of course...)

Maybe instead of complaining that things aren't perfect, you could do something constructive? Here's a suggestion. Come up with some meaningful data on what propotion of fracking rigs are likely to work on the same spot (with the same casings) for over 15 years, much less 30.

Hint: if the typical fracking rig does its job within a few years, how often is the 30 year timeline meaningful?

Hint 2: All skyscrapers will fall eventually if not maintained. Now, does that mean we should never build skyscrapers?
Given the track record of the perma-doomer blogs, I wouldn't bet a fast crash doomer's money on their predictions.
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Re: Gasland2

Unread postby jedrider » Mon 16 Mar 2015, 17:05:37

Judging by the replies so far, that no one REFUTES the facts as I've stated, I am a bit horrified that I may be correct. No, I don't buy the argument with skyscrapers and that someone must die. They are INCOMPARABLE items: We're witnessing the extinction of ecosystems and the start of a permanent die-off event.
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