Donate Bitcoin

Donate Paypal


PeakOil is You

PeakOil is You

CO2 + H2O + Energy = synthetic fuel

Discussions of conventional and alternative energy production technologies.

Re: CO2 + H2O + Energy = synthetic fuel

Unread postby Laromi » Fri 19 Oct 2012, 08:47:34

British engineers produce amazing 'petrol from air' technology
Revolutionary new technology that produces “petrol from air” is being produced by a British firm, it emerged tonight. The company, Air Fuel Synthesis, then uses the carbon dioxide and hydrogen to produce methanol which in turn is passed through a gasoline fuel reactor, creating petrol. http://www.telegraph.co.uk/
Last edited by Tanada on Wed 17 Apr 2019, 16:54:14, edited 1 time in total.
Reason: fixed broken URL
Laromi
Peat
Peat
 
Posts: 196
Joined: Sun 15 Feb 2009, 00:07:25

Re: British engineers produce amazing 'petrol from air' tech

Unread postby Shaved Monkey » Fri 19 Oct 2012, 21:13:24

Company officials say they had produced five litres of petrol in less than three months from a small refinery in Stockton-on-Tees, Teesside.

5 litres in 3 months thats going to take a while, spose its quicker than waiting for fossils to rot.
Ready to turn Zombies into WWOOFers
User avatar
Shaved Monkey
Intermediate Crude
Intermediate Crude
 
Posts: 2486
Joined: Wed 30 Mar 2011, 01:43:28

Re: British engineers produce amazing 'petrol from air' tech

Unread postby Keith_McClary » Sat 20 Oct 2012, 00:12:19

ColossalContrarian wrote:All people need to do is to start farting into plastic bags and hooking the plastic bag up to their car. You could even devise an air capture system to go in the driver and passenger seats...
One of our regulars posted a somewhat gross image of a motorcycle version of this concept.
Facebook knows you're a dog.
User avatar
Keith_McClary
Light Sweet Crude
Light Sweet Crude
 
Posts: 7344
Joined: Wed 21 Jul 2004, 03:00:00
Location: Suburban tar sands

Re: British engineers produce amazing 'petrol from air' tech

Unread postby Graeme » Sat 20 Oct 2012, 02:16:09

Company that made 'petrol from air' breakthrough 'shudders' at prospect of oil industry approaches

Despite the interest in the breakthrough, however, the company's founder and principal investor, Professor Tony Marmont, said that he and his business colleagues would not want the oil industry to take a stake in the firm even though it is actively seeking investment partners to finance the next stage of development.

Professor Marmont, who used to work for Shell, put up half of the £1.2m used to set up the company. He said he was close to a deal with a major soft-drinks company interested in using the petrol to power its carbon-neutral vehicles.

"I would shudder at the prospect of an approach from the oil industry. My reaction would be 'I don't want to know' because I'd be fearful they would buy into the business and work to shut it down," he said.

"We've had calls offering us money from all over the world. We've never had that before. We've made the first petrol with our demonstration plant but the next stage is to build a bigger plant capable of producing one tonne of petrol a day, which means we need between £5m and £6m."


independent
Human history becomes more and more a race between education and catastrophe. H. G. Wells.
Fatih Birol's motto: leave oil before it leaves us.
User avatar
Graeme
Fusion
Fusion
 
Posts: 13258
Joined: Fri 04 Mar 2005, 04:00:00
Location: New Zealand

Re: British engineers produce amazing 'petrol from air' tech

Unread postby autonomous » Sat 20 Oct 2012, 15:37:14

ColossalContrarian wrote:All people need to do is to start farting into plastic bags and hooking the plastic bag up to their car. You could even devise an air capture system to go in the driver and passenger seats..


Nothing new here, people have a strange obsession for this sort of thing:

Image

Image

Image

Image
User avatar
autonomous
Peat
Peat
 
Posts: 186
Joined: Mon 14 Nov 2011, 15:08:25

Re: CO2 + H2O + Energy = synthetic fuel

Unread postby Tanada » Fri 10 May 2013, 17:29:04

Laromi wrote:British engineers produce amazing 'petrol from air' technology
Revolutionary new technology that produces “petrol from air” is being produced by a British firm, it emerged tonight. The company, Air Fuel Synthesis, then uses the carbon dioxide and hydrogen to produce methanol which in turn is passed through a gasoline fuel reactor, creating petrol. http://www.telegraph.co.uk/


I am impatient for someone somewhere to scale up these laboratory proven technologies and find out if they are practical on an industrial scale. We can test in the lab and talk about the results forever without having any real impact unless someone gets the first plant built as proof of concept and economical viability.
Alfred Tennyson wrote:We are not now that strength which in old days
Moved earth and heaven, that which we are, we are;
One equal temper of heroic hearts,
Made weak by time and fate, but strong in will
To strive, to seek, to find, and not to yield.
User avatar
Tanada
Site Admin
Site Admin
 
Posts: 17050
Joined: Thu 28 Apr 2005, 03:00:00
Location: South West shore Lake Erie, OH, USA

Re: CO2 + H2O + Energy = synthetic fuel

Unread postby radon » Sat 11 May 2013, 06:22:55

Fossil fuels = CO2 + H2O + Energy (1)

CO2 + H2O + Energy (2) = Synthetic fuels

Full circle, with the exception that Energy (2) is substantially greater than Energy (1). Indeed, Kin-Dza-Dza. The worst energy balance possible. Maybe, just leave the fossil fuels untouched? :)

Really shows the lengths at which people are ready to go to have their personal vehicles running, no negative eroeis are a problem. Probably, there is something archetypal in the humans psychology to having a personal horse.

Actually, it may well turn out that running an electric vehicles fleet is more effective than running ICEs at eroeis that make that synthetic fuel viable.
radon
 

Re: CO2 + H2O + Energy = synthetic fuel

Unread postby Tanada » Mon 13 May 2013, 11:59:33

radon wrote:Fossil fuels = CO2 + H2O + Energy (1)

CO2 + H2O + Energy (2) = Synthetic fuels

Full circle, with the exception that Energy (2) is substantially greater than Energy (1). Indeed, Kin-Dza-Dza. The worst energy balance possible. Maybe, just leave the fossil fuels untouched? :)

Really shows the lengths at which people are ready to go to have their personal vehicles running, no negative eroeis are a problem. Probably, there is something archetypal in the humans psychology to having a personal horse.

Actually, it may well turn out that running an electric vehicles fleet is more effective than running ICEs at eroeis that make that synthetic fuel viable.



My personal goal isn't for us to chase our tail in a futile cycle wasting energy, rather it is to stop adding additional CO2 to the atmosphere while allowing our preponderance of ICE fossil fuel burning engines to remain useful as distributed working units. The only way I can find to do this is to take diffuse energy like electricity from Wind % Solar and other non carbon emitting sources, Fission power and large scale Hydro power to build chemical molecules that ICE engines can use.
Alfred Tennyson wrote:We are not now that strength which in old days
Moved earth and heaven, that which we are, we are;
One equal temper of heroic hearts,
Made weak by time and fate, but strong in will
To strive, to seek, to find, and not to yield.
User avatar
Tanada
Site Admin
Site Admin
 
Posts: 17050
Joined: Thu 28 Apr 2005, 03:00:00
Location: South West shore Lake Erie, OH, USA

Re: CO2 + H2O + Energy = synthetic fuel

Unread postby radon » Mon 13 May 2013, 12:20:21

Well that's a good idea then. Storing excessive Wind&Solar that otherwise lost anyway certainly makes a lot of sense in spite of the energy conversion loss.
radon
 

Re: Future Energy Technology News

Unread postby ROCKMAN » Wed 24 Jul 2013, 11:55:27

From: http://www.nbcnews.com/technology/silve ... 6C10719235

“Silver lining? Greenhouse gas could be vast, untapped source of energy”

Just amazing how much crap gets printed because they can toss out a sexy headline. If you waste the time to read the article: “For the proof-of-concept, the researchers used a well-known technique to bubble the gas and air through the liquid solution. That process uses more energy than the energy it produces:” Yes indeed…a great concept proved – we can create energy by using more energy than we create. IOW if we don’t use this technique we have even more energy.

But there’s hope:” "Of course you need a lot more technological development before this is a system that can be practiced." So there you have it folks: as soon as we can figure out the technology to use CO2 to make more energy than the energy input we’ll have it made. BTW even if they ever do develop the technology it still doesn’t eliminate the amount of CO2 released to the atmosphere. Just makes a better use of it before it joins the rest of it GHG brothers.

And editors actually get paid to produce such pieces.
User avatar
ROCKMAN
Expert
Expert
 
Posts: 11397
Joined: Tue 27 May 2008, 03:00:00
Location: TEXAS

Re: CO2 + H2O + Energy = synthetic fuel

Unread postby Tanada » Wed 24 Jul 2013, 13:34:52

Proving yet one more time that synthetic fuel is a form of energy storage, not creation. Basic entropy, you don't get something out unless you put something in, and the input always exceeds the output.
Alfred Tennyson wrote:We are not now that strength which in old days
Moved earth and heaven, that which we are, we are;
One equal temper of heroic hearts,
Made weak by time and fate, but strong in will
To strive, to seek, to find, and not to yield.
User avatar
Tanada
Site Admin
Site Admin
 
Posts: 17050
Joined: Thu 28 Apr 2005, 03:00:00
Location: South West shore Lake Erie, OH, USA

Re: CO2 + H2O + Energy = synthetic fuel

Unread postby TheAntiDoomer » Wed 24 Jul 2013, 13:44:12

You guys seem to be missing the point. The point of synthetic fuels is to efficiently convert solar energy into a liquid form. If you can do that even close to a 1 to 1 you have a HUGE winner, as it makes solar power an extremly powerful industry.
"The human ability to innovate out of a jam is profound.That’s why Darwin will always be right, and Malthus will always be wrong.” -K.R. Sridhar


Do I make you Corny? :)

"expect 8$ gas on 08/08/08" - Prognosticator
User avatar
TheAntiDoomer
Heavy Crude
Heavy Crude
 
Posts: 1556
Joined: Wed 18 Jun 2008, 03:00:00

Re: CO2 + H2O + Energy = synthetic fuel

Unread postby kublikhan » Wed 24 Jul 2013, 15:27:48

Tanada wrote:I am impatient for someone somewhere to scale up these laboratory proven technologies and find out if they are practical on an industrial scale. We can test in the lab and talk about the results forever without having any real impact unless someone gets the first plant built as proof of concept and economical viability.
Did you see Audi's plant?

Audi has opened the doors to its new power-to-gas facility, which will make what the automaker calls E-gas, in Werlte, Germany. The plant produces hydrogen and synthetic methane and these clean fuels come from renewable energy, water and carbon dioxide. Audi says it's the first automaker to "develop a chain of sustainable energy carriers."

The Audi E-gas plant uses electrolysis to split water molecules into oxygen and hydrogen, which will someday power fuel-cell vehicles. For now, methanation is the process used to make the synthetic natural gas. Audi reacts the hydrogen with CO2 to generate renewable synthetic methane. The E-gas can be delivered through existing natural gas pipes since, chemically speaking, it's nearly identical to natural gas. Delivery of E-gas through the infrastructure is scheduled to start in the fall of 2013.

Audi says E-gas from the plant can power 1,500 new Audi A3 Sportback G-tron vehicles for 15,000 CO2-neutral kilometers (about 9,321 miles) each year. The Werlte plant is part of Audi's comprehensive e-fuels strategy and sustainability initiative.

The Audi e-gas plant will produce about 1,000 metric tons of e-gas per year, chemically binding some 2,800 metric tons of CO2. This roughly corresponds to the amount that a forest of over 220,000 beech trees absorbs in one year. Water and oxygen are the only by-products.

The Audi e-gas project transcends the automobile industry. It shows how large amounts of green electricity can be stored efficiently and independently of location by transforming it into methane gas and storing it in the natural gas network, the largest public energy storage system in Germany. With the e-gas project, Audi is a part of and a driver of the energy revolution. Major German energy utilities have since taken up the idea of power-to-gas cogeneration and are following Audi with initial projects of their own.
Audi opens renewable energy E-gas plant in Germany

--close to 1 to 1 is not good enough. The industrial process should have a positive EROEI, or why bother. Throwing good energy away for bad energy makes no sense. Unless the process is incredibly cheap. Fischer-Tropf has been around for almost a century, yet has never panned out except in time of war.

--Unlike the this CO2 + H2O-perpetual-energy scheme, corn ethanol production has an positive energy return of 1.34 to 1. Yet it is not a HUGE winner, but rousing failure.
All energy storage has negative EROEI, simple thermodynamics. Storing excess energy from wind and solar is currently problematic. Pumped hydro & underground storage are geologically constrained. Batteries are too expensive. If it turns out to be economically viable to store excess wind/solar energy in the form of synthetic fuel, seems like a good idea to me. Certainly better than corn ethanol.
The oil barrel is half-full.
User avatar
kublikhan
Master Prognosticator
Master Prognosticator
 
Posts: 5002
Joined: Tue 06 Nov 2007, 04:00:00
Location: Illinois

Re: CO2 + H2O + Energy = synthetic fuel

Unread postby TheAntiDoomer » Wed 24 Jul 2013, 15:39:06

Exactly ^ thanks Kub!
"The human ability to innovate out of a jam is profound.That’s why Darwin will always be right, and Malthus will always be wrong.” -K.R. Sridhar


Do I make you Corny? :)

"expect 8$ gas on 08/08/08" - Prognosticator
User avatar
TheAntiDoomer
Heavy Crude
Heavy Crude
 
Posts: 1556
Joined: Wed 18 Jun 2008, 03:00:00

Re: CO2 + H2O + Energy = synthetic fuel

Unread postby kublikhan » Wed 24 Jul 2013, 17:27:38

pstarr wrote:The article in question/this discussion is not about storage, but rather energy carriers, solar-based synthetic fuels.
Both approaches are being pursed. Using the process for energy storage to smooth out intermittent renewables and for producing an energy carrier to power vehicles.

In Germany two demonstration power-to-gas (P2G) plants designed to store excess electricity generated by renewable sources have begun operation. The amount of electricity generated each year by renewables is rising, but the intermittency of some of these sources, such as wind and solar, poses challenges for the grid. Banking excess electricity to feed into the grid at a future point, when it is needed, can be achieved using various storage technologies such as batteries. However, P2G plants open up the possibility of using this excess energy in different ways. In Germany, which has the largest installed capacity of wind and solar, several demonstration P2G plants are being evaluated for their smart grid potential.

The plant will bank excess power that is generated by wind farms, producing about 360m³ of hydrogen an hour. The hydrogen will be fed into the natural gas pipeline at around 2% by volume, at a maximum operating pressure of 55bar, effectively storing and transporting surplus renewable energy. After converting excess wind energy to hydrogen, the plant uses the hydrogen and biogas to generate heat and power. An alkaline electrolyser is used in the plant, which has been operational since 2011.

Future
By the latter part of this decade P2G could start to establish itself as a flexible storage technology in power grids as more electricity is produced from renewable sources.
Wind Power-to-Gas (P2G) technology

I see both efforts as worthwhile: Using the process to smooth out intermittent electricity generation and also producing synthetic fuels to run ICE vehicles. If we can turn renewable energy, CO2, and H2O into synthetic fuel, why would you find this to be objectionable? Even if only 90% of the energy generated ends up as energy carried in the final fuel, we are still coming out ahead because solar pv & wind have much higher EROEIs than 1.1:1.

pstarr wrote:Biofuels are a efficient conversion from sun to liquid fuel, probably with less losses than any industrial process, including the method outlined. (That is why Bush mandated it. But of course he was wrong because of the scope and also the limited eroei)
The only inputs we are talking about here are CO2, H2O, and energy. Biofuels have additional inputs. Trying to scale up biofuel production to replace current liquid fuel needs would exacerbate existing problems like topsoil depletion, dwindling phosphorus resources, etc.
The oil barrel is half-full.
User avatar
kublikhan
Master Prognosticator
Master Prognosticator
 
Posts: 5002
Joined: Tue 06 Nov 2007, 04:00:00
Location: Illinois

Re: CO2 + H2O + Energy = synthetic fuel

Unread postby dinopello » Wed 24 Jul 2013, 17:37:47

CO2 + H2O + Energy (C12H22O11) = Soda Pop !

Synthetic fuel is a battery and can be useful but is not energy. As the formula implies, it is a consumer of energy.
User avatar
dinopello
Light Sweet Crude
Light Sweet Crude
 
Posts: 6088
Joined: Fri 13 May 2005, 03:00:00
Location: The Urban Village

Re: CO2 + H2O + Energy = synthetic fuel

Unread postby Subjectivist » Wed 24 Jul 2013, 19:14:35

dinopello wrote:CO2 + H2O + Energy (C12H22O11) = Soda Pop !

Synthetic fuel is a battery and can be useful but is not energy. As the formula implies, it is a consumer of energy.


Exactly, and you can take all those diffuse energy sources you care to name to manufacture high energy liquid fuels that will integrate into the existing system of spply and demand seamlessly.
II Chronicles 7:14 if my people, who are called by my name, will humble themselves and pray and seek my face and turn from their wicked ways, then I will hear from heaven, and I will forgive their sin and will heal their land.
Subjectivist
Volunteer
Volunteer
 
Posts: 4701
Joined: Sat 28 Aug 2010, 07:38:26
Location: Northwest Ohio

PreviousNext

Return to Energy Technology

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 56 guests