THE Solar & Wind Power Thread (merged)

[Graeme]

Cut The Price Of Solar In Half By Cutting Red Tape

This guest post was written by Barry Cinnamon, a widely recognized solar energy expert and consultant and former chief executive of Westinghouse Solar.

A myth persists that solar power is too pricey. The reality is that in many states _ such as California, New York and Hawaii – solar is already cheaper than utility power on a dollar per kilowatt-hour basis. Not surprisingly, by far the biggest factor in the cost of electricity generated by solar is the installation costs for a system.

We can cut these prices in half everywhere simply by eliminating the excessive paperwork it takes to install a photovoltaic or solar thermal system.

Prices have plummeted so much over the past two years that the solar panels and associated supplies cost about $8,000 for a typical 4,000-watt residential system. A qualified solar specialist or electrician should be able to install these panels for about $2,000 given that it’s only about a day of work. The total installed price should be about $10,000, without any tax credits or incentives. That is about the price of a comparable system in Germany.

But the average price of a residential system in the U.S. is about $20,000. So where does the extra $10,000 go? I can assure you that it is not the result of greedy installers, paranoid utilities or greater German installation efficiency.

Studies by the National Renewable Energy Laboratory and by the University of California, Berkeley both confirm that these higher prices are almost exclusively related to the paperwork it takes to “officially” install a standard rooftop system in the U.S. That’s right, government red tape -‐ local, state and federal.

forbes

[Graeme]

'Solar could supply the world'

New solar plant technology may take up a lot of space, but it can easily deliver enough energy to power the world, a researcher has said.

Concentrated solar power (CSP) has emerged as a potentially efficient technology that may be able to reduce the reliance on fossil fuels for electricity generation.

"They take up space but when you actually calculate it, it's a small amount of space. One hundred by 100 miles in the Sahara would actually be enough to power the whole world. It's not total insanity," Paul Gauché senior researcher and director of the Solar Thermal Energy Research Group (Sterg) in the Department of Mechanical and Mechatronic Engineering at Stellenbosch University told News24.

news24

[prajeshbhat]

Now, mainstream economic thinking makes you believe that the only technologies worth investing in are the ones that can be scaled up. If it cannot be made bigger, better, faster, its not worth considering. But I think that we should start considering technologies that can be scaled down. Forget multi GW scale projects and start thinking at household scale. Like solar panels. They can be built in modules. They can just be installed on your rooftop and then you need occasional maintenance. No moving parts. So a single household can own and maintain its own solar panels. Maybe 500-700 W power is enough to run most of your appliances (unless you run them all at the same time). CSP is probably not very good for this. And I don't think we live in times where we can count on grandiose techno miracles to provide the basic needs. We need to learn how to make things smaller, simpler, slower and more managable.

[SeaGypsy]

Building and distribution 10 billion solar panels will not be efficient. Grid systems are much more efficient than stand alone, in terms of resources for manufacture and storage. Batteries are horribly wasteful things looked at over a lifetime, solar PV is terrible compared to solar thermal, which also works far better at scale.

[davep]

But local generation in rural areas can also help the grid, as they tend to be at the end of the line where it is too expensive to improve infrastructure. Local generation into the grid can be very useful.

[sunweb]

Solar can't supply itself. It is not reproductive. It is an extension of the fossil fuel supply system. Can it mine the copper, the aluminum, the rare metals? Can it then process all the necessary components, transport them to the next site for part fabrication and the transport them to the next site for assembly? And after all the energy used for it can it make enough energy to reproduce itself the next time and still make the products (hopefully necessary) to have appliances and motors? I lived off the grid for 30 years with solar electric and wind and not at any moment was I disconnected from the fossil fuel line.
see: http://sunweber.blogspot.com/2011/12/ma ... aking.html
and
http://sunweber.blogspot.com/2011/10/to ... -bulb.html for starters.

[SeaGypsy]

But local generation in rural areas can also help the grid, as they tend to be at the end of the line where it is too expensive to improve infrastructure. Local generation into the grid can be very useful.

Grid to scale appropriate application seems the go. Stand alone systems for isolated properties, micro grid collective generation for villages, large systems for industrial centers and cities. PV on rooftops in cities are a band aid on an arterial spurter.

[prajeshbhat]

If you have some money saved up by now, its better to buy a stand alone energy systems which does not require a continuous supply of fossil fuels. Solar panels can last 30 years. So instead of buying a brand new car, i would buy a solar PV system. I can do just as well with a used car, or public transportation. Also, LED lights can last for a decade or longer.

No, solar and wind cannot reproduce. So you better buy them now while this industrial manufacturing infrastructure is still functional and the stand alone systems are available in the market. If the infrastructure collapses, their production may be stopped all together.

[SeaGypsy]

If/ when that happens; it's mostly game over. Defending and producing enough to survive will become far more important than having electricity.

[prajeshbhat]

Having a solar powered water pump will go a long way in helping you grow food.

[SeaGypsy]

True, those things are cool; a lot of remote stand alone systems are being used in northern Australia. Many places windmills and solar PV combined work very well for irrigation.
The PV versions go from this:


To this.


Depending on the depth of the water table they can be amazingly good. I worked with a 3kw system 16 meters above the artesian basin in the NT which had no problem irrigating 2 hectares of mango orchard with enough left over for an acre of vegies.

[Graeme]

California Renewable Energy Forecast Just Keeps Getting Brighter

California Renewable Energy Forecast Just Keeps Getting Brighter
July 29, 2012 By Silvio Marcacci
The forecast for renewable energy in California, already America’s strongest solar market, just keeps getting brighter.

Renewable energy represented 20.6 percent of the electricity mix from the state’s three biggest utilities at the end of 2011, up from 17 percent in 2010. While slightly off the 20 percent renewables by 2010 goal set in 2002, the jump suggests the state may reach its ambitious 33 percent by 2020 renewable portfolio standard.

But a wider look at the state reveals it’s not just the state’s big three utilities that are boosting renewables. A new report from the Union of Concerned Scientists found that the thirteen biggest utilities in California, representing 87 percent of all retail electricity sold in the state, generated 30 percent of their electricity from renewables and large-scale hydropower in 2010.

While renewables are growing fast across California, solar power is set to
grow exponentially in the Golden State. PG&E, the state’s largest utility expects solar to jump from one percent of its total renewable portfolio to a staggering 40 percent by 2020.

cleantechnica

[nsdivene]

It's a very young technology and they [Eskom] are justifiably very uncomfortable with suggesting that they should rely on CSP. I would not rely on CSP today. However, there are nations in the world... where they realise that concentrating solar power is going to be an extremely important part of the mix."

A study done by organisations including Greenpeace, the European Solar Thermal Electricity Association, and the International Energy Agency found that increased investment of €2bn to €92bn into CSP until 2050 would see the technology being able to supply 25% of the world's energy needs.

Link deleted - davep

[prajeshbhat]

But that energy will not be consumed immediately. The Europeans will have to wait till 2050. The only things people spend money on are the things that provide instant gratification (oil, coal etc.) or when there is a possibility of monetary profit (stocks, treasuries etc..) or on things that gives them a sense of superiority and domination (war etc..). It's pretty hard to convince people to spend €92bn year after year on something that is only meant to serve the common good 40 years from now. Most of the existing taxpayers would probably be dead by then. Even if they are alive, they will have to share the output with everyone else. Nobody really likes that. So we are probably just going to burn every last drop of oil, every last chunk of coal and every last cubic feet of natural gas we could lay our hands on (all of which would be unaffordable to most of us by 2050 ironically). After that we will just lament the lack of jobs in the market.

[EnergyUnlimited]

Invest in small scale solar power (PV) today only to have it confiscated by .gov tomorrow under some eminent domain laws.
Before system goes to hell where it belongs they will rob everyone of anything useful to postpone collapse for a while.
OK, you can hide your PV in shed but there they will be good for nothing.

[prajeshbhat]

If you are scared that the government will confiscate you solar panels, you could do the following.
First, be as far away from the grid as possible. The effort it will take to actually travel hundreds of miles to confiscate the system which only produces a few hundred watts and transport it back should discourage them.
Second, there are non silicon based panels that don't really look like conventional panels. They are just black and look like carpets rather than panels. You can cleverly disguise them to look like roofing material.
There are other ways. Surely, smart people will figure out many new ways to protect their panels.

[prajeshbhat]

Solar panels are great, but people will have to learn to make do with a lot less KWhs. Reducing your energy consumption from 30 KWh a day to 5 KWh a day. Read Tom Murphy's Do The Math blogs. He explains how he did it. And he is a University Physics professor who works on the general theory of relativity.

[Outcast_Searcher]

Solar panels are great, but people will have to learn to make do with a lot less KWhs. Reducing your energy consumption from 30 KWh a day to 5 KWh a day.

Spot on.

I noticed Graeme's post proclaiming 4000W systems for "only $10,000". Well, that's nice, but I'm installing a whole-house generator to prevent long outage problems from ice storms, flooded basements, etc. I'm getting a 20,000W system for well under $10,000 installed.

And guess what? I will have to watch what I run simultaneously, or I could max out the generator and shut it down. Microwaves, hair dryers, air conditioners, stoves, and even lots of light bulbs use a significant amount of power.

So, unless you want to spend more like $80,000 to $100,000 to power that McMansion most people so strongly desire -- citing a $10,000 system is a fraud.

[Ferretlover]

There can be no doubt that solar is important--looks like we're getting more and more sunshine every year. (Well, at least it sure feels that way!!)

[Lore]

Solar panels are great, but people will have to learn to make do with a lot less KWhs. Reducing your energy consumption from 30 KWh a day to 5 KWh a day.

Spot on.

I noticed Graeme's post proclaiming 4000W systems for "only $10,000". Well, that's nice, but I'm installing a whole-house generator to prevent long outage problems from ice storms, flooded basements, etc. I'm getting a 20,000W system for well under $10,000 installed.

And guess what? I will have to watch what I run simultaneously, or I could max out the generator and shut it down. Microwaves, hair dryers, air conditioners, stoves, and even lots of light bulbs use a significant amount of power.

So, unless you want to spend more like $80,000 to $100,000 to power that McMansion most people so strongly desire -- citing a $10,000 system is a fraud.

The solution is simple, smaller homes that use less energy. Need trumps desire everytime.