Natural Gas Vehicles

[Graeme]

Hertz Introduces Compressed Natural Gas (CNG) Vehicle Rentals in US

The Hertz Corporation HTZ +0.92% is announcing the introduction of compressed natural gas (CNG) vehicles to its fleet in the US. Hertz will begin renting eight CNG Honda Civics and two CNG GMC Yukons at Will Rogers World Airport in Oklahoma City early next month. All vehicles will include NeverLost GPS units to assist renters in mapping local CNG refueling stations.

marketwatch

[kublikhan]

One thing that I would like to add (assuming that you didn’t already know this or learn it since posting your piece), is that the cost of CNG conversions for existing vehicles is as high as it is because of EPA licensing requirements. For an individual (or shop) to be licensed to do a conversion, the person must pay $10,000 per year, per engine type, per year of manufacture. So that if a conversion shop wanted to do conversions in 2009 for Camrys for the years 1995 to 2005, the shop owner would have to pay the government $100,000 in licensing fees. Then, if he wanted to do conversions on the same models in 2010, he would have to pay the $100,000 again, even though they are the exact same models and engines that he has been licensed on already. And if there is more than one engine involved, i.e., a 6-cylinder and 8-cylinder, the cost would double.

Therefore, if a shop owner wanted to do 10 model years of Camrys and Corollas and Celicas, and well as Honda Accords and Civics, unless there were common engines being used in these five models the licensing cost (for just one engine per) would be a half million dollars, which would have to be paid again in 2010. These fees are, needless to say, ridiculous and are only there to ensure that many don’t get done (thanks to the gasoline lobby). The cost of the conversion kits are actually relatively inexpensive. If there was a sensible licensing fee (or no fee) the cost for the work could be just a few hundred dollars.

Behind the Costs of CNG Conversions

RR point on regulation kill for CNG vehicles, correct, from my perspective. My enthusiasm for these vehicles peaked when the once retired Canadian engineer decided to go back to work solving the costly fuel problems. He invented a home refueling device “Phil” that solved the infrastructure problem. The pump was about as complicated as installing a gas dryer. Pump would have benefited with longer lifespan, but for first gen product o.k.. It hasn’t exactly caught on. Regulations, inspections, permits, and liability a big anchor drag. Funny, I worked with a Pakistani engineer whom knew first hand CNG transportation fuel from home. Looked up the stats on safety concerns. Could find no justification for the U.S. hyper expensive regs, other than to stymie a low cost home owner controlled fuel source.

It costs 10x more to convert a car in U.S. to CNG, compared to Pakistan. All import kits must be U.L. approved. Annual certs and inspection required for fuel tank. Expensive certified labor required to install the refueling station. Same for car conversions. End result…..economically unjustifiable. Surprise.

The high pressure tank easy to fear monger. Talked to a Russian Engineer whom said back home CNG within car fleet is popular as so cheap. What is wrong with our country?

The Natural Gas Debate

Seems like much of the premium for the cost of a CNG vehicle in the US is nothing but licensing and bureaucratic nonsense and has little to do with safety. Why should the US have conversion costs far higher than every other country? Other countries maintain CNG vehicle fleets in the millions with low cost, we should be able to do the same. We need to change these regulations so we don't punish CNG vehicles.

[Plantagenet]

Why should the US have conversion costs far higher than every other country?

The US is the only country that owns a big hunk of a car company that mainly sells internal combustion engine cars (GM). The US government has also sunk about 2 billion dollars into subsidizing the GM VOLT as well as other electric cars, as well as the companies that make electric batteries, etc. Of course the US government isn't going to make it easy for NG conversions that compete with its ICE and EV cars.

[pstarr]

definately obama's fault that we all don't drive CNG vehicles. It's his librual conspiracy that we don;t drive them jet-powered skateboards. gurldarned gubmint.

[Plantagenet]

Relax, tar. Don't get wee-wee'd up over everything.

[Plantagenet]

Delhi, India to add 45,000 CNG powered rickshaws

No compressed natural gasey---no ridey--Indian city adds 45,000 CNG rickshaws

I've riden in ICE rickshaws in Bangkok , Thailand (where they are called tuk-tuks) and Puno, Peru----its a nice way to travel through a 3rd world town.


CNG Tuk tuks would probably work great as a taxi in American cities too, but they definitely don't meet current NHSTA safety regs for US vehicles.

[Plantagenet]

CNG FIAT auto sales by explode to the upside---up 90% in Italy

Italians beat high gasoline prices by switching to CNG cars----Fiat CNG auto sales grow by 90% in Italy-----

AND---Fiat is bringing their CNG technology to powers cars and trucks at their US Chrysler plants----the big ol' honking huge Dodge RAM CNG truck is coming to a redneck near you!!!!

[KingM]

When I arrived here back in 2004 the cornucopians were absolutely sure that $40 oil would usher in a bright happy Golden Age of Alternative Fuels. I remember fondly the corn ethanol, 3rd and 4th gen cellulosic biofuels, wood gas, saturian methane (seriously. see JohnDenvers posts ), fischer tropf coal liquid (like in Nazi Germany or apartheid S. Africa), thermodepolymerized turkey guts (I kid you not, it even had its own acronym--TDP or something?), hemp fuel, algae spume, fusion, oil shale, Who ever thought natural gas would join the list of unicorn power opportunities? Eight years later? Takes all kinds.

True, and when I joined in 2005, the Doomers were predicting the utter collapse of civilization by 2010. Yet here we are, still arguing energy issues with no end game in sight.

[Plantagenet]

corn ethanol, 3rd and 4th gen cellulosic biofuels, wood gas, saturian methane..., fischer tropf coal liquid..., thermodepolymerized turkey guts ...., hemp fuel, algae spume, fusion, oil shale, Who ever thought natural gas would join the list

“You can always count on Americans to do the right thing, after they’ve tried everything else.”

--Winston Churchill

[pstarr]

When I arrived here back in 2004 the cornucopians were absolutely sure that $40 oil would usher in a bright happy Golden Age of Alternative Fuels. I remember fondly the corn ethanol, 3rd and 4th gen cellulosic biofuels, wood gas, saturian methane (seriously. see JohnDenvers posts ), fischer tropf coal liquid (like in Nazi Germany or apartheid S. Africa), thermodepolymerized turkey guts (I kid you not, it even had its own acronym--TDP or something?), hemp fuel, algae spume, fusion, oil shale, Who ever thought natural gas would join the list of unicorn power opportunities? Eight years later? Takes all kinds.

True, and when I joined in 2005, the Doomers were predicting the utter collapse of civilization by 2010. Yet here we are, still arguing energy issues with no end game in sight.

Wow! An amazingly perceptive analysis. Red-Herring/Strawman-Award of the Year for you! Good work! By the way. Who are those evil mindless zombie invested DOOMERS who made that horrible call? Get them out here ASAP, so we can beat their shiny butts. They are making smart guys like you look stupid.

[Lore]

My prediction is CNG autos will play a small part in a last ditch effort to maintain our universal surface mobility. However, as infrastructure crumbles, private and government finances continue to dry up, there will be little incentive left, or a market of drivers that can afford or be able to drive such vehicles. Even small ICE transport on NG will require a vast network of stations to service them and the logistics to supply them. There is no real sign of commitment in this direction.

I'm afraid we will be sidetracked, in the not too distant future, by far more dangerous world sucking economic events that will leave NG an unfulfilled promise. Not that it wasn't anything more then a pipe dream of a stop gap.

[seenmostofit]

My prediction is CNG autos will play a small part in a last ditch effort to maintain our universal surface mobility.

I agree. With most Americans able to do their daily commuting with shorter range vehicles, EVs will probably develop a larger portion of market share and maintain it over CNG powered cars.

Even small ICE transport on NG will require a vast network of stations to service them and the logistics to supply them. There is no real sign of commitment in this direction.

Again, true. In part because the commitment and investment has been made in EVs, which make more sense and have the advantage of saving the NG for what it works really well for...making electicity on demand to be distributed through that electrical infrastructure, which covers more of the country than NG pipelines, including the last mile system.

[Plantagenet]

Even small ICE transport on NG will require a vast network of stations to service them and the logistics to supply them. ...

We already have a vast network of stations across the country ideally located to serve CNG cars---they are called "gas stations".

---We don't even have to change the name.

All we have to do is add the CNG pumps and tanks to existing gas stations-----just like Italy is doing.


Growth of CNG gas station infrastructure in Italy

[Lore]

Even small ICE transport on NG will require a vast network of stations to service them and the logistics to supply them. ...

We already have a vast network of stations across the country ideally located to serve CNG cars---they are called "gas stations".

---We don't even have to change the name.

Right, none of them are serving up CNG. I don't live in Italy. In all of Michigan right now there are only 16 public CNG centers. None in my area. All of them require a means for the NG to get to them in volume. I don't expect to see one soon in my local village where there isn't even access to a pipe line for NG heating.

http://www.altfuelprices.com/stations/CNG/Michigan/

[Plantagenet]

We already have a vast network of stations across the country ideally located to serve CNG cars---they are called "gas stations".

---We don't even have to change the name.

Right, none of them are serving up CNG.

Be patient, grasshopper. Even the grass takes time to grow.

Maps showing locations of alternative fuel gas stations across the USA

[Lore]

We already have a vast network of stations across the country ideally located to serve CNG cars---they are called "gas stations".

---We don't even have to change the name.

Right, none of them are serving up CNG.

Be patient, grasshopper. Even the grass takes time to grow.

Maps showing locations of alternative fuel gas stations across the USA

As I insinuated earlier, by that time most of us will all be walking.

At least in Italy when their economy collapses and no one is shipping them LNG anymore they can use their CNG cars as dehydrators for their sun dried tomatoes and take the train.

[seenmostofit]

In all of Michigan right now there are only 16 public CNG centers. None in my area. All of them require a means for the NG to get to them in volume. I don't expect to see one soon in my local village where there isn't even access to a pipe line for NG heating.

Fortunate then that most Americans don't like in an the area like yours. People have been fleeing rural and small town environments over the past century for a reason, one of them being to go where the opportunity were. Hicks in the sticks (no offense intended, certainly rural Michigan comes nowhere close to Appalachia and real hilljacks) will just have to get by with really expensive liquid fuels, whereas their city cousins get all the cool neato new stuff.

If you want the cool neato peak oil saving stuff, you might want to consider relocating?

[seenmostofit]

As I insinuated earlier, by that time most of us will all be walking.

Peak oil didn't get us walking, certainly there doesn't appear to be anything on the horizon as bad as that.

[Lore]

In all of Michigan right now there are only 16 public CNG centers. None in my area. All of them require a means for the NG to get to them in volume. I don't expect to see one soon in my local village where there isn't even access to a pipe line for NG heating.

Fortunate then that most Americans don't like in an the area like yours. People have been fleeing rural and small town environments over the past century for a reason, one of them being to go where the opportunity were. Hicks in the sticks (no offense intended, certainly rural Michigan comes nowhere close to Appalachia and real hilljacks) will just have to get by with really expensive liquid fuels, whereas their city cousins get all the cool neato new stuff.

If you want the cool neato peak oil saving stuff, you might want to consider relocating?

I'll just bet that you also run into burning houses when they catch fire.

[seenmostofit]

I'll just bet that you also run into burning houses when they catch fire.

Only once. And it was a barn. Managed to get two horses out.

That was back when I lived as a hick in the sticks. I fled as soon as I turned 18 of course. Even this poor country boy knew there wasn't much to be had in rural America.

But NG vehicles? Nah...use the stuff to make electricity, we have plenty of it, the infrastructure for its distribution is already in place across most of the country, and you can cantrol emissions better when the point source is one exhaust rather than thousands.

I'll bet even YOU have electric, way back out there where you live. You might not be able to drive to the next town over and back on one charge, but that isn't the rest of the countries fault.