LENR, Rossi and the ECAT Thread pt 2 (merged)

[Rune]

In order to be a legally a licenser, you have to have an approved consumer product. Similarly, in order to be a legal licensee, a government approved consumer product must actually exist.

AFAIK, these are just private business contracts. Can you give any reference to these laws you claim to exist?

The Consumer Products Safety Act or it foreign equivalent.

[kublikhan]

I wonder if Rossi will be able to slip his self destruct feature by the Consumer Products Safety Act.

[Rune]

I wonder if Rossi will be able to slip his self destruct feature by the Consumer Products Safety Act.

If it's given a green safety light by government authorities, then sure it would.

Any consumer product that utilizes a "nuclear" process would be regulated by government. Any person or company interested in becoming a licensee for a LENR product - whether to manufacture or sell - would be subject to laws pertinent to consumer goods and manufacturing standards. Everyone is familiar with government regulation.

No sales of any kind could take place without these. No potential licensee would throw money away on something that has not been certified and authorized by government. I wonder whether the Nuclear Regulatory Commission in this country might step in at some point and issue its own licensing requirements for LENR devices, if and when they are proven and factory-ready.

Defkalion has collected a list of interested parties to a possible future licensing agreement with them. A month or so ago, they released a notice to these entities informing them that independent testing results were forthcoming in July/August 2012, along with the necessary certifications and authorizations, ...and also the unveiling of an operational, factory-ready prototype LENR device for consumer applications. The notice said that interested parties should begin making more definite plans.

[diemos]

Hmmm....

You must have missed the news story where rossi admits he has no factory and there is no nuclear reaction in his E-cat.

Odd, since it was pointed out to you multiple times on this very thread. And it was reported on your favorite site for baseless claims of cold fusion, pesn.

http://pesn.com/2012/03/11/9602054_Ross ... Reactions/

So ... no nuclear licensing required at all.

[Rune]

Hmmm....

You must have missed the news story where rossi admits he has no factory and there is no nuclear reaction in his E-cat.

You must have missed that fact that, besides Rossi, there are 5 other companies vying for commercialization of a LENR device.

[Prune]

You must have missed that fact that, besides Rossi, there are 5 other companies vying for commercialization of a LENR device.

Will the circle be unbroken
Buy and buy Lord
Buy and buy
Is cold fusion really lovely
Or just pie Lord
In the sky

[Keith_McClary]

In order to be a legally a licenser, you have to have an approved consumer product. Similarly, in order to be a legal licensee, a government approved consumer product must actually exist.

AFAIK, these are just private business contracts. Can you give any reference to these laws you claim to exist?

The Consumer Products Safety Act or it foreign equivalent.

Which country are you referring to?

Regardless, these laws only deal with problem products - they do not require certification for every nut or bolt.

[Prune]

In order to be a legally a licenser, you have to have an approved consumer product. Similarly, in order to be a legal licensee, a government approved consumer product must actually exist.

Yeah...right!

The SunCube: Coming in Spring 2010 from Helios Solar
By Katie Fehrenbacher Dec. 31, 2009, 12:00am PT 10 Comments

Australia’s Suncube is partnering with companies around the world that want to license, distribute, and produce the units. Helios Solar in Denver is the only licensee currently in the U.S..

Americans love the idea of the neatly packaged product, even when it comes to clean power — biofuels, wind and nuclear all come in modular “in-a-box” sizes. In that same vein, Helios Solar, a 2-year-old startup based in Denver, Colorado, has announced that its SunCube is now on-sale, and will be ready for installation in the Spring of 2010.

The SunCube is a concentrating photovoltaic system — which magnifies sunlight and directs it onto solar cells — and is set up as a 300-watt module, with 30+ percent efficiency, which is almost double the efficiency of standard PV. The Cube also uses a dual-axis tracking system to maximize the power output.

The SunCube is one of a growing number of CPV systems that have emerged on the market recently, including Solarmation, which is looking to make CPV more modular, Soliant Energy, SolFocus, and these 13 CPV players. Some CPV systems can be more expensive on the initial investment than traditional solar panels, and also have moving parts, which means they can be less reliable. But CPV systems can have a higher efficiency and higher output (which means they can be less expensive because you need less equipment), and can be fit into smaller spaces, which is a benefit for certain types of installations.

Helios Solar was set up in 2008 to sell the SunCube to the southwestern region of the U.S. including Hawaii, using technology from Australia’s Green and Gold Energy (GGE). New Mexico-based company Emcore makes the triple junction gallium arsenide chips that are responsible for the highly efficient solar cell used in the SunCube. Helios is backed by 10 local Denver investors.

Helios plans to build one or more factories in Colorado and across the southwest, but is currently building its SunCubes in a plant in India and is looking for state funding The company says that each line at its Colorado factory will directly employ 180 staff and over a thousand indirectly. Vibrant Solar, also based in Denver in the same office space, will install the SunCubes in the southwest.

[SeaGypsy]

George Divitkos is the appointed liquidator. Greggy is nowhere to be seen.

[Rune]

In order to be a legally a licenser, you have to have an approved consumer product. Similarly, in order to be a legal licensee, a government approved consumer product must actually exist.

Well I said that wrong.

Two licenses are important here: the one from the "Licenser" to the "Licensee", and the one from the government regulatory agencies to the "Licenser". In other word, the "Licenser" must be licensed by the government if it is manufacturing and selling a variety of consumer products. Each product has its own set of regulations it must abide by. Some products are rigorously regulated by the government; some are not. This was all specified the The Consumer Product Safety Act.

If Leonardo Corp wants to sell anything at all, it must be licensed by the government to do so - particularly if the device claims to use some sort of poorly understood but apparently safe nuclear heat phenomenon. It would ludicrous to expect to sell any device of that sort without rigorous, proper, government certifications and authorizations. Potential licensees KNOW this; they are all awaiting the certified, authorized, factory-ready working prototype that performs as claimed. As soon as government licensing occurs, a horde of interested parties all around the world will be jumping to get in on the action.

So far, there is no indication at all the any of these commercializing LENR companies have taken any funds from anyone but qualified venture capitalists and investors. No licensee has come forward and said anything like, "I sent that bastard Rossi $20,000 for a license and all I got was this dumb t-shirt". By every indication, funding is coming from qualified sources, even the military.

[Prune]

" No licensee has come forward and said anything like, "I sent that bastard Watson $20,000 for a license"



SunCube Manufacturing License Summary
As of 11 February 2007

Our solar PV SunCube technology is unique in several ways and offers many significant benefits to licensees which goes well beyond the SunCube itself and addresses the very core issues facing the solar PV industry.
1. The worlds lowest solar PV $ per watt manufacturing cost.
2. The worlds first solar PV farm $ per kWhs price that equates to fossil fuel base load $ per kWh price.
3. The worlds first solar PV domestic and commercial rooftop $ per kWh at less than grid supply price.
4. The worlds lowest capital cost to setup a solar PV manufacturing plant.
5. The worlds simplest solar PV manufacturing plant requiring just common hand tools.
6. The worlds fastest to commission solar PV manufacturing plant.
7. The worlds most profitable solar PV manufacturing plant, solar PV system and solar PV farms.
8. The worlds first small MW solar PV manufacturing plant for developing nations and smaller markets.
9. The worlds easiest, lowest cost to construct and maintain and quickest to construct solar PV farm methodology.
That is a lot of claims but they are all 100% true.

The basic structure of the license for a 30 MW SunCube manufacturing is summarized below. Further down we have worked up an example of a 3 MW facility which may be of more interest to smaller markets.
1. Term of the license is at least 5 years.
2. One time upfront license fee of US$2.7 million, 50% of which is deductible as against royalty payments. This is scalable downward for plants of below 30 MWs capacity. The license fee also includes virtually unlimited consultancy services from GGE. We will come to you, redesign the SunCube for local conditions and / or suppliers if necessary, work with and train your people to get your SunCube manufacturing facility up and running ASAP and get it running right the first time.
3. Manufacturing royalty of US$3 per cell module. For a typical 3x3 SunCube this is then US$3 x 9 cells = US$27 royalty per 3x3 SunCube. This royalty ensures GGE has a very high interest in the ongoing success of your SunCube manufacturing facility. If you make no profit, we make no profit.
4. Each licensee will have exclusive manufacturing and distribution rights for GGE’s SunCube in the country and / or territory of the licensee as so agreed.
5. Each licensee will have the right to use GGE's current SunCube IP in the form of patents, trademarks, copyrights, trade secrets, design, software and expertise.
6. Suggested manufacturing capacity is 100,000 3x3 SunCubes per year (approx 30 MW or 60 GWh per year) or as otherwise agreed. Cost effective plants can be built down to say 5 MW per year for smaller markets.
7. Estimated capital cost, based on Adelaide conditions, for a 30 MW, 660 GWh, 100,000 3x3 SunCube per year manufacturing facility is around US$2 million (assuming the use of a leased building of 3,000m2).
8. Staffing for a 30 MW plant is around 50 with 35 engaged in direct manufacturing efforts on a single shift basis and a production time of around 45 minutes per SunCube.
9. Plant capacity can then be increased to say 100 MW by moving to 24 / 7 operation without any additional investment in capital equipment.
10. To reduce manufacturing complexity, the critical SunCube solar cell receiver assembly, the pre-programmed micro processor and the inverter will be supplied by GGE. SunCube manufacturing is then very much like manufacturing domestic "White Goods" (washing machines, micro waves, stoves, etc)
11. You do the metal punching, folding, welding (in house or contract it out), get the PCB loaded and make the lens assembly. Then you bolt on the gears, motors, PCB, wires, cell assemblies, inverter, plug in the micro and mount the lens assembly. Test and ship. Simple KISS manufacturing. No need for duplication of expensive high tech manufacturing equipment. SunCube manufacturing is similar to "white goods / domestic appliance" manufacturing, while requiring very little specialized / expensive manufacturing and / or test equipment or highly skilled workers.
12. Suggested 3x3 SunCube retail cost is around ~US$1,025 or ~US$3.42 per DC watt or ~US$0.08 per AC kWh (under Adelaide skies) which includes an inbuilt 2 axis intelligent tracker and AC grid connect fully anti-islanding inverter.
13. SunCube manufacturing profit margins are very good and are well above flat plates. If direct marketing to end customers is utilized, the profit margins are very exceptional.
14. Backing a SunCube manufacturing facility into a solar farm business is also an excellent way to achieve excellent profit margins as that way the solar farm business has access to solar kWhs at prices around those of fossil fuelled base load power plants.
15. We will not be providing SunCube samples or accepting low volume international orders as they may quickly find their way to those who have no respect for our IP. So much more can be learned by visiting us in our beautiful city of Adelaide, especially if you like good wine and our excellent Mediterranean like life style. Late February onward is an excellent time to plan a visit. Once we get to know each other and we have the license agreement signed and a small 5% down payment received, we will travel to you with a SunCube to demo under local conditions.
16. Nothing here is locked in stone. We will work with potential licensees to come up with a license agreement that is a win - win for all parties.

Example of a 3MW per year SunCube manufacturing facility
1. Basic conditions as above except where modified below.
2. Initial capacity of 3 MW per year (10,000 SunCubes per year or ~800+ SunCubes per month).
3. Capital cost of plant and equipment of ~US$500k. (assuming the use of a leased building of ~1,000 m2)
4. License fee of US$270k (50% applied as a credit against future royalty payments)
5. Sales of ~US$10.25 million per year at ~US$1,025 per SunCube (~US$3.42 per watt).
6. Very significant profit margin and quick reply of investment capital.
7. Around 45 minutes of direct labour per SunCube assembly.
8. Approx 15 staff with 10 in direct assembly and 5 in management and marketing.
9. Aluminium metal work and printed circuit board assembly contracted out.
10. Solar cell assembly and programmed / serialized micro processor supplied by GGE.
11. SunCube assembly is composed of the installation of:
o HDPE bearings.
o Wiring.
o Gears and motors.
o Printed circuit board (micro processor supplied by GGE)
o Solar cell assemblies (supplied by GGE).
o Inverter if AC SunCube.
o Lenses and lens assembly
o In-house testing using GGE developed sun simulator
o Packing
o Shipping
All very KISS (Keep It Simple Stupid) and very doable in low annual MW numbers.

Sizing of SunCube manufacturing facilities and license fee

To maintain consistency across licensees and countries, GGE has decided to adopt the following method to size the desired initial annual MW output from a SunCube manufacturing facility and the exclusive licensee fee for the country.

You first look up the annual consumption in TWhs for the desired country from http://www.iaea.org/inis/aws/eedrb/data/AU-elc.html#c1 . For Australia that is 200.66 TWhs. Drop the TWhs and just use 200.66. Then multiple by 0.1 to 0.5 to get ~20 MWs to ~100 MWs as the acceptable range of target SunCube plant sizes.

We use 0.1 for large countries and move toward 0.5 as the consumption drops for small countries with a 1 MW min plant size. This is just a guide and we will work with you to the get size right. The desired plant size also depends on the availability of net metering and feed-in tariffs in the selected country as these will move the desired plant size toward the larger end of the scale.

The licensee fee is equal to one years royalty payments of which 50% is applied as a credit against your royalty account. The license fee is US$90,000 per MW plant size with a minimum of US$90,000. A discount may be applied for plants of 10 MW or greater.

License process: (modified 2 Feb 2007)
1. You sign the GGE NDA/STFU
2. You visit GGE in beautiful Adelaide, inspect the SunCube and our manufacturing facility.
3. We discuss your licensee proposal and we sign a letter of intent.
4. You leave a 5% deposit (min US$20,000) as against the agreed license fee. <<< First payment of 5% (min US$20k) occurs here
5. We hand over a complete BOM showing every SunCube part, it's specification, it's cost and supplier. Additionally you get an AutoCAD based set of drawing for each and every SunCube part that must be manufactured.
6. This will enable you to ensure our costing is accurate, can be verified and can be duplicated in your country by your suppliers.
7. We arrange to visit you with a SunCube and we work with your people to create a workable plan for your SunCube manufacturing facility.
8. You sign the license agreement and pay 35% of the license fee. <<< Second payment of 35% occurs here
9. We continue to work with you to get your and your external contractors ready to manufacture SunCubes.
10. We leave and ready your first shipment of cell 450 cell assemblies and 50 micro processors (enough to make 50 SunCubes).
11. We arrive back with your first order of cell assemblies and we work with your people to manufacture your first batch of 50 SunCubes
12. When your locally manufactured SunCubes have passed our and your test you then pay 40% of the license fee. <<< Third payment of 40% occurs here
13. You are now in the SunCube manufacturing and distribution business and making very good profits.
14. Once you manufacture your next monthly batch and they have pass our and your tests you pay the last 20% of the license fee. <<< Forth payment of 20% occurs here
15. We continue to visit every 2 months for the first year and work closely with you and your people on SunCube marketing, solar farms, future development, etc.
16. You start to pay royalty when you manufacture SunCube 10,001.
17. Your success is our success.

GGE's use of our royalty fee: (added 29 Jan 2007)
1. We will look at using our royalty fee to assist licensees who wish to work with very low income families to bring the advantage of low cost SunCube electricity.
2. We will invest 20% in future SunCube developments and other renewable energy products which may be of interest to our licensees and their customers.
3. We will invest 10% in CO2 offset and other programs which have been shown to be effective at cleaning excess CO2 from the atmosphere.
4. Licensees who wish to use their SunCubes to power their SunCube manufacturing facility will not pay royalty on those units.
5. Other worth while projects which we may see has value to GGE, our licensees and their customers.

SunCube license availability status:
• Canada
• US
• Mexico
• South America
• EU especially Northern Mediterranean countries
• Malta
o 3rd Letter of Intent entered into with Eco-Office Ltd of Malta for a minimum 1 MW per year SunCube manufacturing facility including exclusivity for Maltese distribution and sales. Please direct Maltese sales enquiries to them.
o Additionally Eco-Office Ltd has agreed to act as our agent to source and secure a SunCube manufacturing license in Italy.
• Africa (Southern Mediterranean, Northern, Middle and Southern countries)
• Middle East (including Eastern Mediterranean countries)
• India
o 2nd Letter of Intent entered into with Square Engineering Pvt Ltd of India for a minimum 30 MW per year SunCube manufacturing facility including exclusivity for Indian distribution and sales. Please direct Indian sales enquiries to them.
• China
• Southern Asia
• Korea
o 1st Letter of Intent entered into with ES System Co., Ltd. of Korea for a minimum 30 MW per year SunCube manufacturing facility including exclusivity for Korean distribution and sales. Please direct Korean sales enquiries to them.
• Japan
• Singapore, Indonesia & Malaysia
• South Pacific
• New Zealand
• Australia (yes we will sell a manufacturing license for Australia)
Additional information and resources (updated 11 Feb 2007)

If you find this opportunity of interest and you wish to initiate discussions please click below to send us an email about your interest.
SunCube Manufacturing License

You will also need to download the GGE Mutual Confidentially Deed (STFU Document), execute the Deed and fax it back to us.

[Prune]

Of course if any licensee is unhappy they should read carefully the NDA which they have signed.
If they still feel that they might have a case then they should engage a top line lawyer.
Naturally they will need to pay the lawyer upfront and be prepared to spend at least $50,000 before it ever gets to court.
There is at best a 50/50 chance that the action will be successful and the plaintiff must be prepared to pay the costs of the defendant if he loses.

Having (hopefully) won the court action (expect to wait several years for a result) the plaintiff can then commence action to recover his money.
Only about 60% of his own legal costs will be recoverable.
If the defendant has spent/disposed of the loot or has fled overseas then things will become a tad tricky.

Good luck guys!

SunCube™ International Group (SCIG)
With our current round of SunCube™ patenting activities shortly coming to a close, GGE will again be in the position to initiate discussions with interested parties which wish to visit GGE in beautiful Adelaide, South Australia and investigate joining the SCIG group of international SunCube™ licensees.
Licensing opportunities can include JV's, distribution, assembly, manufacturing rights or any mix.
License entry point is US$250,000 for 5 SunCubes™ installed and commissioned on the Licensees site by GGE. In addition GGE provides 1- 2 weeks of on site technical training, information transfer, local market analysis, etc to assist the new Licensee moving into the next Distribution stage.

The SunCube™ International Group (SCIG)-
is currently composed of 19 companies which have secured SunCube™ rights in many countries. For more information about becoming a part of the growing SCIG organization please click here.

ES System (yeah RIGHT!!)
Korea

Energies AC Gava (es bueno)
Spain
Portugal
Andorra

Square Engineering
India
Bangladesh
Bhutan
Mauritius
Sri Lanka
Nepal
Ebay (but not actually in stock)

Zolar Distributors
Australia
New Zealand
South Pacific Islands (sorry..we don't actually have any yet..coming real soon ....promise!!

Crown International Incorporated (web site in creation, redirects to GGE's web site until then)
All US states east of the Mississippi River (keeps on rollin etc)
Virgin Islands (ooh that sounds nice)

Helios Solar (manufacturing...real soon promise)
Vibrant Solar (retail sales and installations ... see above)
Colorado
Arizona
New Mexico
Utah
Nevada
California

License agreement in place, company to be announced
Italy
Hungary

Crown International Incorporated (web site in creation, redirects to GGE's web site until then)
Bulgaria
Macedonia
Romania
Greece
Turkey
Switzerland
France
All of the countries of the former USSR
All of the countries of the former Yugoslavia

License agreement in place, company to be announced
Nigeria
All the rest of Africa, excepting South Africa and the countries adjourning the Mediterranean Sea

Planet Zargon
Distribution agreement in place.
Please visit Zolar
knock three times and ask for George.

WHOOOOOO HOOOOOOOOO!!

[Rune]

Of course if any licensee is unhappy they should read carefully the NDA which they have signed.
If they still feel that they might have a case then they should engage a top line lawyer.
Naturally they will need to pay the lawyer upfront and be prepared to spend at least $50,000 before it ever gets to court.

There is absolutely no indication that licensee funding is occurring in ANY of these commercializing LENR companies. Every indication is that funding is arriving from qualified, experienced and hugely wealthy investment groups, industrial corporations, or from the military.

We are talking about VC investments in the low millions. I don't know what the capitalization of Defkalion is, for example, but it is probably well below $20 million, which is a pittance given the staggering implications of LENR technology and what it could mean for the entire world.

You or I are UNABLE to invest in Leonardo, Defkalion, or Brillioun - which ALL appear to have no trouble finding the funds from VC's, hedge funds (very low percentages in the case of Leonardo), industrial corporations, and the military.

[Rune]

Explaining LENR by Dr. Edmund Storms

A new idea of what creates the cold fusion reaction has been articulated by Edmund Storms of Kiva Labs. Storms describes his hypothesis with the simplest terms in the updated Student’s Guide to Cold Fusion [.pdf] and in a recent paper submitted to the Journal of Condensed Matter Nuclear Science called Explaining LENR. .pdf

There are three distinct parts to his model.

1. The Nuclear Active Environment NAE of a crack or hollow is formed.
2. Hydrogen enters the NAE.
3. Applied power at the resonant frequency of the NAE/hydrogen combo turns mass into energy.

Storms does not say what nuclear mechanism is at work, only that it is instigated by resonance.

Peter Gluck, one of the earliest scientists to look into cold fusion/LANR/LENR, and what he has termed LENR+ for the new commercial products now being engineered, asked how this proposal answers seven crucial questions, and got Storms to answer. Re-published here from his blog EgoOut is their exchange.

[SeaGypsy]

So it's a fancy tuning fork as well as a kettle?

[Keith_McClary]

Any consumer product that utilizes a "nuclear" process would be regulated by government.

From what I can google, the only regs are for products containing radioactive materials.

They don't seem to have anticipated consumer products that utilize "nuclear" processes. There don't seem to be any regulations on cyclotrons, for example. I guess those would not be considered "consumer products".

Everyone is familiar with government regulation.

You seem to know more than Google.

[Rune]

Any consumer product that utilizes a "nuclear" process would be regulated by government.

From what I can google, the only regs are for products containing radioactive materials.

If you think there would be no regulatory oversight of consumer LENR devices, you're cracked.

Whole categories of consumer products are regulated by The Consumer Products Safety Act - some categories more stringently than others.

[SeaGypsy]

Copy please?

[EnergyUnlimited]

So are we going to regulate items which do not even exist and never will?

What about regulations dealing with legitimate use of time machine?
Any bans prohibiting setting up supernova detonation of Sun?
Some tax codes related to import of iridium from asteroid belt?
Safety regulations dealing with mining of core?

[Rune]

e-catworld

This year’s 17th International Conference on Cold Fusion (ICCF-17) in Daejeon, South Korea on August 12-17 is shaping up to be a high profile event with many of the prominent names in the LENR field scheduled to be presenting there. Some of the plenary and invited speakers listed on their site are names familiar to many who are following LENR developments, such as Frank Gordon (SPAWAR, ret.), Peter Hagelstein (MIT), Michael McKubre (SRI International), George Miley (Univ. of Illinois), Francesco Celani (Frascati National Laboratory, ITALY) and David Nagel (George Washington University).

In addition, while not listed on the ICCF-17 web site, Infinite Energy magazine is reporting that Defkalion Green Technolgies and Brillioun Energy will be making presentations at the conference. IE’s web site reports, ‘Representatives from Defkalion will make two presentations: A technical presentation entitled “Technical Characteristics & Performance of the Defkalion Hyperion Model 0 Module” and a general presentation on “The Potential Contribution of LENR in Resolving the World’s Energy Problems.” Robert Godes, the President and Chief Technology Officer of Brillouin Energy, will make a presentation on their technical results and also participate in the theory panel.’

Oooo, I can't wait!

Defkalion says they will be unveiling their operational prototype in the July/August timeframe also - right about the same time.