THE Electric Vehicle (EV) Thread pt 3 (merged)

[Frank]

Any kind of fire near someone's home is tragic. For the record though, there's still something like 500 car fires per day in the United States. You know, regular, old-fashioned cars with 10-20 times the amount of energy in liquid fossil fuels contained in their fuel tanks...

[Revi]

Last time I checked my little car hadn't burned up yet. Arguing about what kind of car will work in the future is like having a squabble about what kind of jet you are going to buy now. Most of us are out of cars soon anyway. There's no way we'll be using the rest of our energy to push a steel box into the wind. The only thing that's going to make sense is electric trains and maybe really small electric cars. We won't be able to afford anything else.

[Plantagenet]

Arguing about what kind of car will work in the future is like having a squabble about what kind of jet you are going to buy now. Most of us are out of cars soon anyway. There's no way we'll be using the rest of our energy to push a steel box into the wind. The only thing that's going to make sense is electric trains and maybe really small electric cars. We won't be able to afford anything else.

It makes perfect sense to think about what kind of car will work in the future.

For instance, you left NG cars off your list of thngs that might make sense going forward. NG cars are cost competitive with gasoline cars right now, and refueling them with CNG is much cheaper than gasoline.

[Plantagenet]

BAD engine design may have caused the Fisker Karma fire, says EV expert

engine too big for engine compartment says EV expert

That should be easy to fix. Just recall all the Karmas, get a sledge hammer and bang out the panelling on both sides of the engine compartment and make the whole front end a foot wider or so, and then push the grill out in front and mount it on 2x4s.

Easy Peasy---bigger engine compartment!

[Frank]

...so the fire had nothing to do with the fact that it's a hybrid, except for the possible influence of it needing a larger engine because of battery weight? Poor engineering will get you every time...

[Timo]

Say what you will about the Karma and all of its problems in design and engineering. For the most part, i'm sure it's all true, but for my money (not saying that i actually have that kind of stash, or anything close to it), i think the Karma just looks cool, like a car should look. Between the Karma and the iMiev from Mitsubishi, the Karma please.

And while we're on the topic of electric cars, i read yesterday the development of a cheap, dependable and very efficient catalyst for separating hydrogen from h20. The gist of the article was that this development could put FC vehicles back on the map.

And lastly, while we're all discussing the future of vehicle transportation and the technologies needed to make it all happen, i think (i hope) we can all agree that any single technology probably isn't in the picture. The old, reliable ICE will give way to the next century of multiple technologies, each with its own set of advantages and disadvantages, all performing relatively similar in the grand scheme of things. Where the sun is overly abundant (Arizona), pure electric might be the way to go because the electricity can come from the sun. In less sunny climates (New England), maybe hydrogen is the way to go, or CNG. There's just no telling, and that's one of the best things (or one of the worst thing, depending on your POV) about the free market. Given enough time, a winner will emerge based on technological superiority over all other competitors. I admit that's probably wishful thinking, but you get my point. In fact, the free market could very well end up destroying us all through climate change. I mean, wasn't it the free market that caused the Coyuhoga (sp?) River to catch on fire?

[kublikhan]

Between the Karma and the iMiev from Mitsubishi, the Karma please.

+1
Who the hell designed the iMiev? It is one of the ugliest cars I have ever seen. 30 grand for that?!?!?

[Timo]

Between the Karma and the iMiev from Mitsubishi, the Karma please.

+1
Who the hell designed the iMiev? It is one of the ugliest cars I have ever seen. 30 grand for that?!?!?

Ahhh, but the iMiev hasn't had any fires to report..............yet. It is very soundly engineered. Can't you just see Justin Bieber driving his special lady friends around in one of those??? No fire extinguisher required!

[Frank]

I agree that the future will be a mix of all sorts of technological developments and we shouldn't try to pick winners.

What we *can* and *should* do though is make sure that all the significant costs are identified and captured in the price of things. The biggest example is carbon emissions: the "low end" estimate is about $21/ton. These are real costs already being borne by society, just not those that use the fuels. Ensuring these types of costs get allocated to the right place is a necessary step in making choices about future energy sources.

[Shaved Monkey]

Ford Falcon EcoBoost (Super Charged 4 Cylinder Ford)
v
Toyota Camry Hybrid (Prius technology in a slightly larger car)
v
Holden Commodore LPG (GM designed to run on LPG )
v
Ford Falcon EcoLPi: (Ford Designed to run on LPG)

New technology means Australian-made large cars are more frugal than ever, but which is best?
All solutions have their advantages.
LPG is not as efficient as petrol, but is (currently) about half the price and emits less carbon dioxide.
Ford's turbocharged four-cylinder promises six-cylinder power and four-cylinder fuel economy, while the Camry Hybrid combines a 2.5-litre four-cylinder petrol engine with an electric motor for claimed small-car fuel consumption.
Verdict

The Commodore and the Falcon EcoBoost get knocked out of the contest first.

The four-cylinder Falcon is a fine engineering effort but if we are judging this comparison test first and foremost on economy and fuel costs, then it clearly loses out.

The Commodore gets knocked because in a two-horse dedicated LPG race it is clearly the inferior competitor.
The EcoLPi Falcon does a better job of saving you money and delivers a more satisfying drive.

Which leaves the LPG Falcon and the Camry Hybrid.

Yet such is the fuel-price differential between petrol and LPG, the EcoLPi Falcon managed to undercut the Camry's fuel-cost-per-kilometre average, while the Commodore SV6 owner will pay only a little more.

But the Camry emits significantly less CO2 and you don't have to refuel as often as an LPG car. And at $34,990 you have paid significantly less (based on RRP).

Personally, I would take the Falcon because it is a pleasure to drive and powered by a fuel that reduces our dependency on imported oil.

Yet the economy and pricing of the Camry are impossible to ignore. It is a car that lacks personality but is brainy, frugal and affordable, and deserves the top ranking in this test.

http://theage.drive.com.au/new-car-comp ... 1yg69.html

The electric car wins but the LPG Ford drives the best and costs less to refuel (currently based on LPG prices V Petrol prices)
Hybrid LPG maybe the next solution.

[Frank]

"The electric car wins..."

For the sake of accuracy, the Camry is not an EV. It is a hybrid and still derives all its energy from gasoline. The electric motor(s) simply make it a more efficient transport platform. OK, not simply: it's very sophisticated but extremely well developed.

[pstarr]

Arguing about what kind of car will work in the future is like having a squabble about what kind of jet you are going to buy now. Most of us are out of cars soon anyway. There's no way we'll be using the rest of our energy to push a steel box into the wind. The only thing that's going to make sense is electric trains and maybe really small electric cars. We won't be able to afford anything else.

It makes perfect sense to think about what kind of car will work in the future.

For instance, you left NG cars off your list of thngs that might make sense going forward. NG cars are cost competitive with gasoline cars right now, and refueling them with CNG is much cheaper than gasoline.

I might make the analogy that tree leaves are cost-competitive with tree trunks right now. And building a home with them is much cheaper than with real wood. I would argue that leaves and trunks are merely different state/forms of the same material; trunks being heavy and solid, leaves light and airy.

But you being a realist would argue that leaf trusses don't stay in place, they'd blow off the roof. Or you can't throw them in the back of your truck and drive to the job site. I'd argue that you can just compress the leaves into a solid material NO PROBLEMO! I would argue that Home Depot has/will/is-gonna-real-soon offer a little mini leaf compressor (USB) that will turn everything; grass clippings, philodendron leaves, even the straw and hay on your head into mill-graded stamped number 1 construction fir. I might say that, but then I would be considered a dunce

Now somebody might make similar arguments for natural gas. You know the argument. You just throw the can'O'gas into the back of your truck, and off you go. That kind of thing? Or drive a load out to the farmers barn for the tractors. Easy peasy. What does an Ingersol-Rand compressor cost? Only $1 million. NO PROBLEMO!

[Plantagenet]

NHTSA opens investigation of Fisker Karma fire hazard after a new Bad Karma reportedly undergoes spontaneous combustion in a Texas garage.

NHTSA investigates Karma "incident"

Fisker got one of those "Half billion dollar" dollops of money from the Obama administration to build the "Bad Karma" PHEV.

[pstarr]

Plant, nothing more to say about the natural-gas revolution overtaking peak oil?

I've challenged you on several occasions to supply data to support you contention that NG is replacing, or will replace liquid petroleum as a primary transport fuel. (In the face of record gas prices.) This time I bothered to create an analogy; that while the chemistry is similar, the form and therefor the function of liquid petroleum and natural gas are very different. It was nice analogy. Gets to the point. Original. Even cute.

You answer: Obama. Not even cute.

[Plantagenet]

I've answered you on that question twice already, p.

Maybe you were tired or mentally distracted when we had those prior exchanges? Think for a bit---remember now? IF you still can't remember, use the search function to find the prior discussions.



CHEERS!

[pstarr]

I've answered you on that question twice already, p.

Maybe you were tired or mentally distracted when we had those prior exchanges?

There is nothing new. You hijacked this thread with an outrageous error. Natural gas was always a ICE fuel, just an inadequate one, certainly without the potential for sustainable, green, peak-oil mitigation that suitable solar electric offers. Nothing has changed, Plant. You remain a troll.

Argument by Assertion; Pre-supposes the solution, so is in effect apriori knowledge. The only slight flaw is if the world does not turn out to be knowable in advance...

Fallicious Argument to the Future, arguing that evidence will someday be discovered which will (then) support your point?

(with credit to Lore and dorlomin for their lesson in logics )

[Plantagenet]

You hijacked this thread ... Natural gas ....

You are the one who just posted about NG, not me.

[pstarr]

You hijacked this thread ... Natural gas ....

You are the one who just posted about NG, not me.

No. Plant. That is a lie.

(To recap; Revi had pointed an uncomfortable truth to you, that our personal vehicles (of any kind, ICE or EV) will become obsolete sooner rather than later. You chose distraction rather than debate. I pointed it out that out. Your response; to continue to defend an untenable position. The few public stations are promotions, subsidized by Boone PIckens. So no, NG is not cheaper)

Arguing about what kind of car will work in the future is like having a squabble about what kind of jet you are going to buy now. Most of us are out of cars soon anyway. There's no way we'll be using the rest of our energy to push a steel box into the wind. The only thing that's going to make sense is electric trains and maybe really small electric cars. We won't be able to afford anything else.

It makes perfect sense to think about what kind of car will work in the future.

For instance, you left NG cars off your list of thngs that might make sense going forward. NG cars are cost competitive with gasoline cars right now, and refueling them with CNG is much cheaper than gasoline.

[Graeme]

Fueling Stations: Electric Cars Trump All Other Alt-Fuel Types

According to the Department of Energy, there are now almost 10,000 public electric-car charging stations in the country, a total that has largely arisen in only three years.

As always, a few caveats are in order. It's worth noting that each charging cable is counted as a single station, versus a gas station that may have multiple fuel pumps.

Also remember that far more effective range per minute is delivered by a 5-minute stop at the gas pump than by even a half-hour charging session at a rare DC fast charger.

The far more common public 240-Volt Level 2 stations only deliver about 10 miles' worth of energy per hour to an electric car.

Home charging not included

On the other hand, that public charging-station number doesn't include the tens of thousands of private charging stations located inside electric-car owners' garages.


You can see the full and most-up-to-date DoE table, broken down by state, here, along with an explanation of its methodology. Note that stations for some fuels--natural gas, for instance--are clustered in just a few states (as are charging stations at the moment).

greencarreports

[Graeme]

New electric car conversion kit will charge your car (and wallet)

That old Honda in your driveway — maybe it's in need of a valve job? Transform it with an electric conversion. A team at Carnegie Mellon University here in Pittsburgh has come up with an all-included kit to make your 2001-2005 Civic a zero-emission battery car. Converting an existing car instead of buying a new one is good for the planet, and the old beater will have a new lease on life.

Your mechanic can probably install the kit in two and a half days. It’s not a difficult job, and you can sell the used engine and transmission on Craigslist. That’s the good part. Now here’s the bad part. The conversion kit costs $24,000, plus the cost of the Civic (if you don't already have one). Your total bill is likely to come in at $30,000. And you’re not eligible for the $7,500 tax credit that new EV buyers get. In fact, buying a new Nissan Leaf is actually cheaper than converting a 7-year-old used Civic.

Conversions are likely to catch on first in the fleet market, where what matters most is the long-term cost of keeping vehicles on the road. I wish the economics of personal EV conversion worked out better because it makes sense on many levels.


Converting cars to electric could be a big business, and some companies, such as ALTe, have been trying to make it such. Michigan-based ALTe has developed a turn-key plug-in hybrid conversion for fleet and niche vehicles. For the Ford F-150, the most popular vehicle on American roads, they take out the inevitable V-8, and replace it with a four-cylinder engine, an average of 22-kilowatt-hour battery packs, and two 60-kilowatt electric motors. As with other plug-in hybrids, there is 25 to 40 miles of electric-only range. The company says there are 33 million light- and medium-duty trucks on the road, and converting them to plug-in hybrid results in an 80 to 200 percent fuel economy improvement.

Here's what the ALTe trucks look like on the road:

mnn