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We will use all the fuel in the end

How to save energy through both societal and individual actions.

Re: We will use all the fuel in the end

Unread postby Lore » Thu 26 Apr 2012, 15:19:32

It's not coincidental that the exponential rise in human population coincides with the age of oil. The reset in population after we have depleted most all of the inexpensive fossil fuel resources that can be captured through mass industrialization will certainly be at a level commensurate with what can be pounded out by a few tribes that have rejiggered some of the mechanized skeletons of our past.

The survivors main problem is to overcome the crises coming at them from so many different converging future catastrophic events. Stripped of our once formidable technology it will be like taking a knife to a gun fight.
The things that will destroy America are prosperity-at-any-price, peace-at-any-price, safety-first instead of duty-first, the love of soft living, and the get-rich-quick theory of life.
... Theodore Roosevelt
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Re: We will use all the fuel in the end

Unread postby ian807 » Sun 29 Apr 2012, 08:10:27

Humans are just nature's way of recycling organic chemicals back into the ecosystem (Sorry, feeling cynical today).
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Re: We will use all the fuel in the end

Unread postby SeaGypsy » Sun 29 Apr 2012, 08:34:58

Biggest waster of compost ever. Flushing it out to sea or down the river all our lives then having our bodies burned because worms creep us out. How bizarre we are.
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Re: We will use all the fuel in the end

Unread postby DomusAlbion » Sun 29 Apr 2012, 10:38:57

pstarr wrote:... billions must die to live off the scraps we have left.


And they will, Peter, they will.

We'll also see a return of slave labor. First it will be criminals from local prisons, then the unemployed then who ever is the PTB's favorite flavor of the persecuted.

Can't happen? Just look at recent history. During WWII those people in concentration camps weren't on vacation. They were making things for the 3rd Reich's war effort before they died.
"Modern Agriculture is the use of land to convert petroleum into food."
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Re: We will use all the fuel in the end

Unread postby pstarr » Sun 29 Apr 2012, 12:15:04

You two moderators (DomusAlbion, and Tanada) seem to agree that our dismal future will look like The Hunger Games with a wealthy powerful class that controls legions of hungry obedient poor. I kind of lean toward a Mad Max scenerio of complete chaos and population dieoff. My future is more reasonable for many reasons. We are armed. We are angry (and many are suicidal, as per 'Arab Spring') we communicate, and we see what is coming. They will not set up camps. The guards will slink on home.

IMHO there will be many fewer of us in the future living simple lives, with less industrial civilization. The stylish world portrayed in The Hunger Games depends on cheap fuel. I see folks dressed like medieval serfs, picking through their neighbors' orifices for vermin, before things play out in another dictatorship. Those slick costumes require such a fantastically complex industrial infrastructure. Centralized food production/processing/distribution (and waste management) requires an intact transport and refrigeration infrastructure---which is failing as we speak in 3rd-world countries. So does tertiary oil production. Fracting is a incredibly complex operation. Chaos is the rule on the downslope.
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Re: We will use all the fuel in the end

Unread postby dissident » Sun 29 Apr 2012, 14:28:47

pstarr wrote:You two moderators (DomusAlbion, and Tanada) seem to agree that our dismal future will look like The Hunger Games with a wealthy powerful class that controls legions of hungry obedient poor. I kind of lean toward a Mad Max scenerio of complete chaos and population dieoff. My future is more reasonable for many reasons. We are armed. We are angry (and many are suicidal, as per 'Arab Spring') we communicate, and we see what is coming. They will not set up camps. The guards will slink on home.

IMHO there will be many fewer of us in the future living simple lives, with less industrial civilization. The stylish world portrayed in The Hunger Games depends on cheap fuel. I see folks dressed like medieval serfs, picking through their neighbors' orifices for vermin, before things play out in another dictatorship. Those slick costumes require such a fantastically complex industrial infrastructure. Centralized food production/processing/distribution (and waste management) requires an intact transport and refrigeration infrastructure---which is failing as we speak in 3rd-world countries. So does tertiary oil production. Fracting is a incredibly complex operation. Chaos is the rule on the downslope.


The Hunger Games is some elite wannabe's wet dream. They are not going to get it to come true. During the transition to smaller population there will be flowering of disease like we have not seen in history. The selection process will be based on whose genes are resistant to the new strains and not how much money they have in the bank. These survivors will have to find food which will be a real challenge due to the weather chaos that is already letting us know it is starting and that will get catastrophic by 2050.
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Re: We will use all the fuel in the end

Unread postby SeaGypsy » Sun 29 Apr 2012, 15:40:31

As I just mentioned in the die-off thread, lack of anti-biotics is all it would take to transition to rapid die-off. I am with dissident and Pstarr on this, the elite wet dream concept of the future is as unrealistic as techtopia or the book of Revelations. However I don't doubt TPTB will try to manifest maintaining their status at any cost. I do doubt their ability in the long run to control what happens outside city gates.
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Re: We will use all the fuel in the end

Unread postby pstarr » Sun 29 Apr 2012, 19:59:15

disease. google cholera haiti. And then consider your one hundred-year old crumbling waste-management system
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Re: We will use all the fuel in the end

Unread postby Tanada » Sat 20 Jul 2013, 08:46:44

SeaGypsy wrote:As I just mentioned in the die-off thread, lack of anti-biotics is all it would take to transition to rapid die-off. I am with dissident and Pstarr on this, the elite wet dream concept of the future is as unrealistic as techtopia or the book of Revelations. However I don't doubt TPTB will try to manifest maintaining their status at any cost. I do doubt their ability in the long run to control what happens outside city gates.


Count me in on this POV as well, they will claw and scratch to keep power, but as you and Dis have both pointed out the survivors will be those with strong enough immune systems or natural resistance. The reason people in the worlds hell holes die so young is lack of access to clean food and uncontaminated water. In the west we take these things for granted, but the modern systems are all very energy intensive.

I do think we are headed at some point for a World Made By Hand scenario where diseases sweep away 10-40% of the population and the people remaining alive are needing to adapt to changed climate and lots of physical work just to feed themselves. It might not happen for many years if some of the technotopia dreams of cheap energy pan out, but the environment is straining to feed 7.2 Billion of us now. How much more can the world feed even if energy were free?
Always appeal to a man's enlightened self interest, you can trust him to look out for himself honestly, It's when you appeal to his Honor or the Common Good that he stops paying attention.
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Re: We will use all the fuel in the end

Unread postby John_A » Sat 20 Jul 2013, 10:07:28

Lore wrote:It's not coincidental that the exponential rise in human population coincides with the age of oil.


And the advent of the scientific method, engineering as a full blown science relying on the ingenuity of humans to create higher crop yields, take advantage of more dispursed energy sources (wind and sun) create entirely new ones from scratch (nukes).

The rise in human population started long before oil was used for much more than lighting.
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Re: We will use all the fuel in the end

Unread postby eastbay » Sun 21 Jul 2013, 12:22:44

Yup, we'll use all of it. It's well underway, folks. The easy to get NG, coal and oil's nearly gone. So we've moved on to what's next on the list of what we can burn:

* We burn half the US corn production in America's cars.

* We've clearcut half of the Malaysian rainforests so palm oil plantations can grow green renewable fuel to burn in bio-diesel trucks and cars.

* We're setting fire to the Indonesian rainforests to clear that land so palm oil can be grown and burned in Europe's cars.

* We're clearcutting the Amazon to, you guessed correctly, grow sugar to make green biofuels for cars and trucks. (and to grow soy and raise cows and plant other food for us and the 80 million people annually added to humanity)

* We now pump unpronouceable chemicals into the ground everywhere to frac out the last of the hydrocarbons.

* We scrape the topsoil off Alberta, and we'll next move on to Colorado and everywhere else to get at and burn the bits of oil trapped in topsoil.

* We'll start some wars over a few islands in the China Sea in order to see who owns the oil there.

* We'll nuke and radiate the oceans with leaks from coastal atomic energy plants because burning coal is too costly.

* We've started wars in all sorts of Islamic countries so the Muslims know who's really boss over the oil under their lands.

* We're well on our way to killing all non-human life on the entire surface of the Earth so we can burn fossil fuel to make people fatter and lazier.
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Re: We will use all the fuel in the end

Unread postby Ibon » Mon 22 Jul 2013, 19:33:55

eastbay wrote:Yup, we'll use all of it. It's well underway, folks. The easy to get NG, coal and oil's nearly gone. So we've moved on to what's next on the list of what we can burn:

* We burn half the US corn production in America's cars.

* We've clearcut half of the Malaysian rainforests so palm oil plantations can grow green renewable fuel to burn in bio-diesel trucks and cars.

* We're setting fire to the Indonesian rainforests to clear that land so palm oil can be grown and burned in Europe's cars.

* We're clearcutting the Amazon to, you guessed correctly, grow sugar to make green biofuels for cars and trucks. (and to grow soy and raise cows and plant other food for us and the 80 million people annually added to humanity)

* We now pump unpronouceable chemicals into the ground everywhere to frac out the last of the hydrocarbons.

* We scrape the topsoil off Alberta, and we'll next move on to Colorado and everywhere else to get at and burn the bits of oil trapped in topsoil.

* We'll start some wars over a few islands in the China Sea in order to see who owns the oil there.

* We'll nuke and radiate the oceans with leaks from coastal atomic energy plants because burning coal is too costly.

* We've started wars in all sorts of Islamic countries so the Muslims know who's really boss over the oil under their lands.

* We're well on our way to killing all non-human life on the entire surface of the Earth so we can burn fossil fuel to make people fatter and lazier.


This is Kudzu Ape's legacy. And it will be what marks this age to future generations looking back, more than any of our technological wizardry or social achievements.
If Karma is true all of us alive today will come back as maggots eating our grand children. Our resiliency resembles an invasive weed. We are the Kudzu Ape
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Re: We will use all the fuel in the end

Unread postby Subjectivist » Mon 22 Jul 2013, 19:57:32

The real legacy of humanity will be all the legacy of extinct species we are taking out of the ecosystem every day from no into the future.
II Chronicles 7:14 if my people, who are called by my name, will humble themselves and pray and seek my face and turn from their wicked ways, then I will hear from heaven, and I will forgive their sin and will heal their land.
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Re: We will use all the fuel in the end

Unread postby eastbay » Mon 22 Jul 2013, 20:20:47

Subjectivist wrote:The real legacy of humanity will be all the legacy of extinct species we are taking out of the ecosystem every day from no into the future.


The ongoing destruction of the rainforests has me all jacked up lately ... and, much like with the peak oil catastrophe, there are times I feel like I'm the only one all jacked up about the horrific final clearcutting.
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Re: We will use all the fuel in the end

Unread postby pstarr » Mon 22 Jul 2013, 21:04:20

John_A wrote:
Lore wrote:It's not coincidental that the exponential rise in human population coincides with the age of oil.


And the advent of the scientific method, engineering as a full blown science relying on the ingenuity of humans to create higher crop yields, take advantage of more dispursed energy sources (wind and sun) create entirely new ones from scratch (nukes).
Yes John, human ingenuity is a marvelous thing. We can gab all day long on the internet thanks to fossil fuel electricity. But no John, higher crops are as much a function of diesel irrigation, fossil-fuel fertilizers and biocides, and 600hp monster tractors as anything else. As for wind, solar, nukes: the guts, the steel, cement, and glass, are all mined and processed with diesel

John_A wrote:The rise in human population started long before oil was used for much more than lighting.
No John. Exponential human population got underway with the industrial revolution and coal for heat, energy, and machine power. It only accelerated like Wily Coyote over a cliff with the advent of oil. Thank fossil fuels. Not human arrogance.

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Re: We will use all the fuel in the end

Unread postby Ibon » Mon 22 Jul 2013, 21:18:49

eastbay wrote:
Subjectivist wrote:The real legacy of humanity will be all the legacy of extinct species we are taking out of the ecosystem every day from no into the future.


The ongoing destruction of the rainforests has me all jacked up lately ... and, much like with the peak oil catastrophe, there are times I feel like I'm the only one all jacked up about the horrific final clearcutting.


There are times you feel this way, especially when you realize that the majority of the human population now lives in urban areas with only the most abstract relationships with natural ecosystems.

Nothing concerns me more, not peak oil or climate change or peak water or peak anything, than the loss of biodiversity and loss of entire ecosystems due to humans being in overshoot.

I ended up putting the majority of my net worth and majority of my time buying up and restoring 400 acres of cloud forest in a buffer zone of a major national park in Panama.
There are still sizable refuges of habitat in the neotropics from where the genetic material of montane and rain forests will one day spread out once humans retreat. The devastation in southeast asia is horrible beyond words and these remnant refuges are also imperiled. There we may justifiably feel all jacked up......

just remember that these refuges of remnant habitat, even in the worst of places, will one day expand again once human population retreats......that is the consolation one must focus on to calm those jacked up feelings.... that is how far we have come...
If Karma is true all of us alive today will come back as maggots eating our grand children. Our resiliency resembles an invasive weed. We are the Kudzu Ape
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Re: We will use all the fuel in the end

Unread postby pstarr » Mon 22 Jul 2013, 22:16:46

Yes Ibon (and Eastbay), loss is truly tragic. But I have stopped mourning in part because of the work you do Ibon, and also my final trust in the power and resilience of nature. There have been dieoffs before and although innumerable species will be gone forever, others will come again. Also only humans feels our existential loss. Other species live with death everyday, and individual don't realize they are the last of their kind.
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Re: We will use all the fuel in the end

Unread postby eastbay » Mon 22 Jul 2013, 22:30:47

pstarr wrote:Yes Ibon (and Eastbay), loss is truly tragic. But I have stopped mourning in part because of the work you do Ibon, and also my final trust in the power and resilience of nature. There have been dieoffs before and although innumerable species will be gone forever, others will come again. Also only humans feels our existential loss. Other species live with death everyday, and individual don't realize they are the last of their kind.


You just made a grown man cry.


Ibon, I remember reading (on this website) of your work in Panama several years ago. I was deeply impressed and amazed at the time, and still am. Thank you.
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