Donate Bitcoin

Donate Paypal


PeakOil is You

PeakOil is You

International Hydroelectric Thread

Re: Maximized hydroelectric USA

Unread postby Tanada » Thu 07 Dec 2006, 16:30:14

Loki wrote:I forgot to mention the Fraser River Basin. Now that is a potentially highly productive hydro area that is largely untapped. They didn't build large dams on the mainstem (they did build some on the tribs) because the CRB and Peace River Basin were already being developed and because of fishery concerns. But if we did see a new spate of dam building, the Fraser would be prime pickings.


That's exactly the kind of thing I am talking about, a new series of Dam projects in the USA as environmental laws are tossed away for pollitical/economic expediency as we go down the PO curve.

Without peer in terms of ROI Hydro-electric has series repercussion, but everyone seems to assume becuase these projects were cancelled once upon a time they can not be rekindled.

People though WW I was the war to end all wars too!
Alfred Tennyson wrote:We are not now that strength which in old days
Moved earth and heaven, that which we are, we are;
One equal temper of heroic hearts,
Made weak by time and fate, but strong in will
To strive, to seek, to find, and not to yield.
User avatar
Tanada
Site Admin
Site Admin
 
Posts: 17050
Joined: Thu 28 Apr 2005, 03:00:00
Location: South West shore Lake Erie, OH, USA

Re: Maximized hydroelectric USA

Unread postby Loki » Thu 07 Dec 2006, 18:32:16

The Fraser is actually in British Columbia, not the US. But their environmental laws are even laxer than ours, plus they're going balls out to try to overpopulate the province (I think half of Hong Kong now lives in the Vancouver metro area), so it's likely they'll end up developing the Fraser. The one thing that might slightly inhibit them is the lack of a federal development agency like the Corps of Engineers or Bureau of Reclamation, plus I think BC Hydro is prohibited from building any more projects. So they may have to rely on private companies to build the dams.
User avatar
Loki
Expert
Expert
 
Posts: 3509
Joined: Sat 08 Apr 2006, 03:00:00
Location: Oregon

New Quebec hydroelectric development to service 1 million

Unread postby Denny » Sat 24 Nov 2007, 16:22:02

This is quite an inspiring read. I did not realize that this hydroelectric potential still existed in eastern North Ameirca, but it seems awesome. See NPR: "Search for energy"

NPR claims that an area inside Quebec the size of the state of Colorado has been re-engineered and this includes a 6,000 square mile reservoir. One massive river will be diverted hundreds of miles northward in this most recent iteration of hydro development.

But, NPR also dwells on the detractors. There is a marginal population of Cree Indians who will be relocated, as have many before them since the 1970's in the James Bay watershed.

Quebecers are very proud of this huge corporation, Hydro-Quebec. It claims itself to be the world's most profitable sustainable energy company, with profits last year of $3.7 billion.
I recall years ago they developed the world's first ultra high voltage power transmission systems.
User avatar
Denny
Heavy Crude
Heavy Crude
 
Posts: 1738
Joined: Sat 10 Jul 2004, 03:00:00
Location: Canada

Re: New Quebec hydroelectric development to service 1 millio

Unread postby Mechler » Sat 24 Nov 2007, 17:06:14

Well, it's sad that Americans are outsourcing their problems like this. But projects like this need to be done now, while energy is still available. Look at the magnitude of construction - it's only possible with fossil fuels, of course.

Meanwhile, in the US, hydro systems and dams are being dismantled. And worse, renewable energy projects are being rejected because of aesthetics (cape wind off of Mass, at least one wind project in Maine, etc). Environmentalists, of all people, are usually the ones opposed. Then they jump in their cars and drive miles and miles back home...
"It is certain that free societies would have no easy time in a future dark age. The rapid return to universal penury will be accomplished by violence and cruelties of a kind now forgotten." - Roberto Vacca, The Coming Dark Age
Mechler
Lignite
Lignite
 
Posts: 293
Joined: Thu 02 Feb 2006, 04:00:00
Location: Denver, USA

DOE report points to potential for increasing hydroelectric

Unread postby Graeme » Sat 21 Apr 2012, 18:51:39

DOE report points to huge potential for increasing hydroelectric power

Without building a single new dam, the Department of Energy says in a new report that equipping existing dams to produce power could provide an electrical generating capacity of more than 12 GW, which is equivalent to roughly 15 percent of current U.S. hydropower capacity.

The report - An Assessment of Energy Potential at Non-Powered Dams in the United States - analyzes more than 54,000 specific sites that could be developed to generate power. Those with the most potential were found at lock and dam facilities on the Ohio, Mississippi, Alabama, and Arkansas Rivers – facilities owned by the United States Army Corps of Engineers. (You can access an interactive map showing all of the sites identified here.)

Also interesting is that the DOE's assessment found that many potential hydropower sites are located in areas of the country with fewer wind or solar resources, giving nearby communities access to renewable energy.


Download the full report >>


smartgridnews
Human history becomes more and more a race between education and catastrophe. H. G. Wells.
Fatih Birol's motto: leave oil before it leaves us.
User avatar
Graeme
Fusion
Fusion
 
Posts: 13258
Joined: Fri 04 Mar 2005, 04:00:00
Location: New Zealand

Voith Hydro could profit from new hydropower law

Unread postby Graeme » Mon 12 Aug 2013, 21:49:52

Voith Hydro could profit from new hydropower law

A bill signed Friday by President Barack Obama could mean more work for West Manchester Township-based Voith Hydro - a manufacturer that has focused its lobbying efforts on easing cumbersome regulatory approval for hydroelectric generation.

The U.S. Bureau of Reclamation Small Conduit Hydropower Development and Rural Jobs Act will improve the permitting process for small and conduit hydropower projects at bureau facilities.

The law will require the Federal Energy Regulatory Commission to examine a two-year licensing process for non-powered dams and closed loop pump storage.
Kevin Frank, president and chief executive officer of Voith Hydro, said he has seen licensing approval processes for these facilities take as long as five to eight years.

"We don't want to short circuit any of the environmental studies," he said. "We just think developers are able to get it done in that time." Though the bill itself doesn't force the two-year process, Fern's consideration of a two-year process is a step in the right direction, Frank said. "If they do it," he said, "we will put a whole bunch of people to work."

The law is expected to increase the power criteria for small hydro projects from five megawatts to 10 megawatts.
Hydro projects classified as small, Frank said, don't require all the licensing steps of large facilities.

About 80,000 dams in the United States are available - yet not being used - for hydroelectric power generation. Many of those, Frank said, can be used for small hydro.


The law The Bureau of Reclamation Small Conduit Hydropower Development and Rural Jobs Act was signed by President Barack Obama Friday.
It will:

-Increase the power criteria for "small hydro" from five megawatts to 10. Small hydro requires less regulatory approvals, said Kevin Frank, president and CEO of Voith Hydro.

-Remove "conduit," or pipe-bound projects under five megawatts - such as one a farmer might install in his irrigation system - from Federal Energy Regulatory Commission jurisdiction.

-Provide FERC the ability to extend preliminary permits for hydropower projects. Currently, if a preliminary permit expires, the developer "has to start from scratch," Frank said. "This allows them to keep a project moving that has potential."

-Require FERC to examine a 2-year licensing process for non-powered dams and closed loop pump storage. In the past, those processes can take between five to eight years, Frank said.


ydr

prnewswire
Human history becomes more and more a race between education and catastrophe. H. G. Wells.
Fatih Birol's motto: leave oil before it leaves us.
User avatar
Graeme
Fusion
Fusion
 
Posts: 13258
Joined: Fri 04 Mar 2005, 04:00:00
Location: New Zealand

Re: Voith Hydro could profit from new hydropower law

Unread postby rollin » Tue 13 Aug 2013, 13:17:35

Over 50,000 projects to tap a total of less than 4GW. Sounds crazy. Most of the dams are below 1 MW and are probably fed by very intermittent streams.
Once in a while the peasants do win. Of course then they just go and find new rulers, you think they would learn.
rollin
Lignite
Lignite
 
Posts: 294
Joined: Thu 06 Dec 2012, 18:28:24

Re: Maximized hydroelectric USA

Unread postby Tanada » Fri 18 Oct 2013, 07:58:04

I think this counts as a Dam Bribe!

The two senators in charge of the panel that allocates money for water projects said last night that contracts would have been canceled and $160 million would have been wasted unless Congress moved quickly to renew the project’s authorization. Battles over the budget and President Barack Obama’s health-care law had sidetracked action on routine bills, including one that would have reauthorized this project.

Don Stewart, a spokesman for McConnell, said in an e-mail the White House supports the project and that it was Senate appropriators who requested the project be included in the stopgap spending bill.

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2013-10-1 ... -deal.html
Alfred Tennyson wrote:We are not now that strength which in old days
Moved earth and heaven, that which we are, we are;
One equal temper of heroic hearts,
Made weak by time and fate, but strong in will
To strive, to seek, to find, and not to yield.
User avatar
Tanada
Site Admin
Site Admin
 
Posts: 17050
Joined: Thu 28 Apr 2005, 03:00:00
Location: South West shore Lake Erie, OH, USA

International Hydroelectric Thread

Unread postby Keith_McClary » Tue 05 Aug 2014, 00:06:05

Nepalese rivers contribute up to 70% of water to India's Ganges river during dry season, but the sharing of resources has been hampered by mistrust. Nepali politicians from both ruling and opposition parties have been suspicious of a recent Indian proposal for a hydropower development agreement, claiming its aim was to secure India's monopoly over Nepal's water assets. The allegation has been dismissed by Delhi.

According to the Deccan Chronicle, the aim of Mr Modi's visit is to "help speed up negotiations on the power trade pact that is at the centre of a new effort to improve ties with a neighbour that serves as a buffer with China".

The paper reports that in a speech on Sunday in the parliament in Kathmandu, the Indian PM reassured MPs that "we don't want free electricity, we want to buy it", and added that "just by selling electricity to India, Nepal can find a place in the developed countries of the world".

PM Modi "showers Nepal" with a credit line of $1bn (£594m) for infrastructure development, reports The Indian Express, pointing out that he also promised to help the neighbouring country in the field of agriculture.
http://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-india-28636471
Facebook knows you're a dog.
User avatar
Keith_McClary
Light Sweet Crude
Light Sweet Crude
 
Posts: 7344
Joined: Wed 21 Jul 2004, 03:00:00
Location: Suburban tar sands

Re: Hydroelectric Geopolitics Thread

Unread postby Paulo1 » Tue 05 Aug 2014, 09:40:33

Just don't sell hydro to California, they take you to court when the bill is due.

Sounds flippant, but I am serious about customers and their interests. I would assume elephant Inida will act like elephant US did with softwood lumber tariffs etc against Canada. In my neck of the woods there is and will be lasting bitterness against these predatory trade practices.

Build the dams but get UN lawyers to write up the contracts and oversee sales if possible.

Paulo
Paulo1
Coal
Coal
 
Posts: 425
Joined: Sun 07 Apr 2013, 15:50:35
Location: East Coast Vancouver Island

The Yin-Yang of Hydropower

Unread postby KaiserJeep » Fri 27 Jan 2017, 17:56:34

Image
For the record, I don't recall starting any thread in the "Environment" subforum before, but I figure this is the correct place for a discussion of hydropower and dams. Consider these IEA hydropower statistics (created June 25, 2016) for a moment:

Percent of world’s electricity produced by Hydropower: 21 %
Total number of people that hydropower supplies with energy: 1,250,000,000
Percent of U.S. energy supplied by Hydropower: 9.25 %
Percent of renewable consumption provided by Hydropower in the U.S.: 49 %
Total number of dams in the U.S.: 80,000
Total number of dams in the U.S. that are utilized for Hydropower: 2,400
Percent of efficiency hydropower turbines can achieve: 95 %
Total number of countries that utilize hydropower: 30 countries
Percent of electricity hydropower provides for the northwestern United States: 70 %
Percent of Norway’s electricity provided by hydropower: 99 %
Percent of New Zealand’s electricity provided by hydropower: 75 %

Cut and pasted today from this page: http://www.statisticbrain.com/hydropower-statistics/

I have also just watched and will separately post my review of the 2014 documentary "DamNation" in the Book/Media section later today.

Speaking as an Electrical Engineer who worked in computers but who has been obsessively studying energy sources for 3+ years, I would like to state a couple of things before the main discussion begins.

Firstly, the drought that afflicted the Western US in recent years appears to be over. Last June when the above statistics were generated, hydropower was 49% of the total "green" energy in the US. Here in Silly Valley, we have 280% of the average rainfall for the 12 months just passed, multiple mudslides, and localized flooding. Although it would take at least two more such wet years before we could declare that "the drought has ended", we at least are no longer facing a dire water shortage, and many of our hydropower facilities that were idled by lower water levels are again online, and the 49% statistic above is likely to go to 50-60% of the "green" energy this year in spite of the increases in wind and solar and other sources.

Secondly is something the documentary above does not state. Hydropower is much beloved by EE's because it is not an intermittent energy source as are wind and solar. A volume of water impounded behind a dam represents an energy store with a known value, that can be utilized at any time needed. It is also uniquely able (for a "green" power source) to be throttled up and down in a short period of time, simply via the mechanical actions in opening and closing sluices and gate valves upstream of the water turbines. In fact, the hydropower dams are a unique variable energy source that enable the much more variable solar and wind sources, by compensating for the intermittent nature of those two green energy sources in particular. It also is an enabler of nuclear power plants, which by their nature are slow to start, stop, and control.

In fact, one of the very few alternatives to hydropower in regard to controllable energy generation is large gas turbine "peaking power plants", which are not particularly efficient forms of fossil fuel energy generation, but are extremely controllable and can be throttled up and down as quickly as can hydropower. Gas supplies are at the moment more than adequate due to "fracking" and similar techniques, not to mention LPG imports from the Middle East, but "Peak Gas" looms in our future.

So the conundrum with hydropower would be:

- It is "green energy", in the sense that it does not emit carbon or waste heat in operation, since nothing is being burned. During construction of course, a lot of petroleum-fuelled machinery is used to move earth and rock, and to manufacture/mix/pour concrete, and coal is used to make the steel reinforcements for the concrete dam and a lot of both steel and copper are used in the huge generators.

- It is intensely destructive of the environment, for the most part in the construction phase, but also on an ongoing basis to a certain degree, as it suppresses the ebb and flow of rivers and removes the periodic floods that naturally renew riparian areas.

- It is the biggest single source of green power, and because it can be throttled, it also enables the more intermittent green energy sources such as wind and solar. The gas turbine alternative consumes FF and emits carbon dioxide.

- The reservoirs created are enjoyable recreation areas with multiple uses - but (being an avid trout fisherman) not as personally enjoyable to me as the natural fisheries the dams destroyed, and the annoyance of the millions of almost identical "clone" fish produced by the government fish hatcheries.

- The flood control and water supplies created are separate benefits, tempered by the fact that they enable us to grow grain in what were once arid desert areas, and enable human habitation in riparian river zones no longer subject to flooding.
KaiserJeep 2.0, Neural Subnode 0010 0000 0001 0110 - 1001 0011 0011, Tertiary Adjunct to Unimatrix 0000 0000 0001

Resistance is Futile, YOU will be Assimilated.

Warning: Messages timestamped before April 1, 2016, 06:00 PST were posted by the unmodified human KaiserJeep 1.0
KaiserJeep
Light Sweet Crude
Light Sweet Crude
 
Posts: 6094
Joined: Tue 06 Aug 2013, 17:16:32
Location: Wisconsin's Dreamland

Re: The Yin-Yang of Hydropower

Unread postby sparky » Fri 27 Jan 2017, 18:38:30

.
Hydro does create a carbon emission , the cement used is produced in quite impressive rotary kilns
burning large amount of fossil fuel , the construction need great quantities of fuel for the Earth moving machinery
However once the Dam is in operation the CO2 foot print is minimal .

It's the typical massive investment upfront with return over decades ,

Dams can be beneficial to the environment , beside the new niche for aquatic life ,
it maintain soil moisture and ground water level for the area ,
avoid massive runoff and has a quite noticeable local temperature balance
User avatar
sparky
Intermediate Crude
Intermediate Crude
 
Posts: 3587
Joined: Mon 09 Apr 2007, 03:00:00
Location: Sydney , OZ

Re: The Yin-Yang of Hydropower

Unread postby KaiserJeep » Fri 27 Jan 2017, 20:35:50

Hydropower dams that are well engineered can easily last between one and two centuries. Let me express my admiration for the "great" dams such as the Grand Coulee and the Hoover dams in our country, as well as the Three Gorges dam and others throughout the world.

However, there are lots of smaller dams where the destructive impacts seem to outweigh the benefits. IMHO building a dam that destroys a natural Salmon or Steelhead run is a crime. I am one of those fortunate few who have experienced having a vibrating graphite rod in my hand and a live Steelhead Trout on the line. All I will say about that is that it is enough to get one out of bed before light, and to wade into a chillingly cold river in the rain of Winter for fish.

But I am not a fanatic. I have caught a few salmon and trout in wild rivers, but most were in the nearby San Lorenzo river that terminates in the lagoon at Santa Cruz, and the fish come from a nearby hatchery which has also had me as a volunteer worker and fundraiser. Note that the San Lorenzo Steelhead run was 100% destroyed by habitat destruction in the 1930's when the redwoods were clearcut and housing and farms replaced them. The fish only exist today because trees were planted to restore the area and shade the water, and the fish hatchery was built. (The genetic strains of Steelhead were chosen from Northern California rivers.)

Given the choice between fish and electricity, I would choose fish. But I believe that dams can be designed, built, and operated today using computer simulation to minimize cost, to maximize electricity generation, and to keep riparian areas healthy with periodic sediment flows and real usable fish ladders around the dam where the fish can bypass the barrier imposed by the dam.
KaiserJeep 2.0, Neural Subnode 0010 0000 0001 0110 - 1001 0011 0011, Tertiary Adjunct to Unimatrix 0000 0000 0001

Resistance is Futile, YOU will be Assimilated.

Warning: Messages timestamped before April 1, 2016, 06:00 PST were posted by the unmodified human KaiserJeep 1.0
KaiserJeep
Light Sweet Crude
Light Sweet Crude
 
Posts: 6094
Joined: Tue 06 Aug 2013, 17:16:32
Location: Wisconsin's Dreamland

Re: The Yin-Yang of Hydropower

Unread postby diemos » Tue 31 Jan 2017, 09:46:40

yeah, they're great.

It's just that most of the low hanging fruit has already been plucked. Not much growth potential there.
User avatar
diemos
Heavy Crude
Heavy Crude
 
Posts: 1423
Joined: Fri 23 Sep 2005, 03:00:00

Re: The Yin-Yang of Hydropower

Unread postby Zarquon » Wed 01 Feb 2017, 09:46:11

Image

The Source Of All Knowledge says:
"Hydropower can be intermittent and/or dispatchable, depending on the configuration of the plant. Typical hydroelectric plants in the dam configuration may have substantial storage capacity, and be considered dispatchable. Run of the river hydroelectric generation will typically have limited or no storage capacity, and will be variable on a seasonal or annual basis (dependent on rainfall and snow melt)."

So hydropower is to some significant degree seasonally intermittent, different from wind & solar which are intermittent on an hourly basis. It gets interesting when the two intermittencies are combined, like with the Nordlink project: we send surplus German windpower to Norway, where it is either consumed or used to fill pump-storage reservoirs. We get it back when renewable output is low.

Transmission losses are said to be only 5%, but you'd need to add losses from pumping etc.
Zarquon
Lignite
Lignite
 
Posts: 321
Joined: Fri 06 May 2016, 20:53:46

Re: The Yin-Yang of Hydropower

Unread postby KaiserJeep » Wed 01 Feb 2017, 11:11:26

It's not so much seasonably intermittent, as subject to drought. After 5 years of drought, we had hydropower in Northern California offline that had been online continuously for over a century. Now after one very wet year it is back online again. But by design a hydropower dam stores the wet season excess runoff and releases it slowly and steadily until the rains resume the following season. The five years of drought are very visible in the chart above.

We were formerly making up for the lack of hydropower energy by buying "green power" from Texas. In a strange way, the power market from Texas will be depressed by the rainy West Coast weather. The other thing that happened and is not ever changing back is that California finished an obsessive buildout of Solar residential rooftop PV, plus medium sized PV installations in parking lots, schools, and manufacturing facilities. We have virtually eliminated the kind of peak daytime power demands that resulted in the Enron scandal 25+ years ago. In fact, half the installed Solar PV in the entire USA is in California, and we are still building.
KaiserJeep 2.0, Neural Subnode 0010 0000 0001 0110 - 1001 0011 0011, Tertiary Adjunct to Unimatrix 0000 0000 0001

Resistance is Futile, YOU will be Assimilated.

Warning: Messages timestamped before April 1, 2016, 06:00 PST were posted by the unmodified human KaiserJeep 1.0
KaiserJeep
Light Sweet Crude
Light Sweet Crude
 
Posts: 6094
Joined: Tue 06 Aug 2013, 17:16:32
Location: Wisconsin's Dreamland

Re: The Yin-Yang of Hydropower

Unread postby joewp » Wed 01 Feb 2017, 13:17:49

Hold on a mintute, KJ:
Hydroelectric power's dirty secret revealed | New Scientist
The green image of hydro power as a benign alternative to fossil fuels is false, says Éric Duchemin, a consultant for the Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change (IPCC). “Everyone thinks hydro is very clean, but this is not the case,” he says.

Hydroelectric dams produce significant amounts of carbon dioxide and methane, and in some cases produce more of these greenhouse gases than power plants running on fossil fuels. Carbon emissions vary from dam to dam, says Philip Fearnside from Brazil’s National Institute for Research in the Amazon in Manaus. “But we do know that there are enough emissions to worry about.”

In a study to be published in Mitigation and Adaptation Strategies for Global Change, Fearnside estimates that in 1990 the greenhouse effect of emissions from the Curuá-Una dam in Pará, Brazil, was more than three-and-a-half times what would have been produced by generating the same amount of electricity from oil.

This is because large amounts of carbon tied up in trees and other plants are released when the reservoir is initially flooded and the plants rot. Then after this first pulse of decay, plant matter settling on the reservoir’s bottom decomposes without oxygen, resulting in a build-up of dissolved methane. This is released into the atmosphere when water passes through the dam’s turbines.



There's no such thing as a free lunch when it comes to producing energy. :cry:
Joe P. joeparente.com
"Only when the last tree is cut; only when the last river is polluted; only when the last fish is caught; only then will they realize that you cannot eat money." - Cree Indian Proverb
User avatar
joewp
Intermediate Crude
Intermediate Crude
 
Posts: 2054
Joined: Tue 05 Apr 2005, 03:00:00
Location: Keeping dry in South Florida

Re: The Yin-Yang of Hydropower

Unread postby KaiserJeep » Wed 01 Feb 2017, 13:32:27

You are correct, but a "good design" for hydropower also includes removing organics - including existing vegetation, downed wood, and structures from the impoundment area behind the dam. Then if water permeable soil exists, clay is often imported and tamped down to control water seepage, especially in earth-filled dams.

The rotting vegetation is gone in a few decades, and not any consideration at all in a dam over a century old. Nor does rotting even occur in many mountain lakes, from which people have salvaged 100+ year old "old growth" logs, dried them, and made beautiful furniture from the wood.

By today's standards, new hydropower is only green if all these precautions are taken. But existing hydropower is almost 100% constructed and quite old already.
KaiserJeep 2.0, Neural Subnode 0010 0000 0001 0110 - 1001 0011 0011, Tertiary Adjunct to Unimatrix 0000 0000 0001

Resistance is Futile, YOU will be Assimilated.

Warning: Messages timestamped before April 1, 2016, 06:00 PST were posted by the unmodified human KaiserJeep 1.0
KaiserJeep
Light Sweet Crude
Light Sweet Crude
 
Posts: 6094
Joined: Tue 06 Aug 2013, 17:16:32
Location: Wisconsin's Dreamland

PreviousNext

Return to Environment, Weather & Climate

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 65 guests