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Fusion research at Iter: unlocking the power of the sun

Discussions of conventional and alternative energy production technologies.

Fusion research at Iter: unlocking the power of the sun

Unread postby Carlhole » Wed 11 Aug 2010, 02:29:46

Telegraph

It is one of mankind’s most daring experiments – a quest to produce virtually limitless clean energy that, if successful, would revolutionise life on Earth by harnessing the explosive power of the sun.
The energy problems that already beset our species, and look certain to dominate the future, would be wiped out at a stroke. The pollution of fossil fuels would be a thing of the past. The oil beneath the Gulf of Mexico could remain, safely unmolested.

Such is the appeal of the idea that the greatest powers of the world, China, India, Japan, South Korea, Russia, America and the nations of the European Union, have united to pursue the same stellar objective. Their aim is commercially viable nuclear fusion – deriving energy from crushing together the nuclei in atoms rather than splitting them, as is done currently in nuclear fission reactors.


“The fundamental critique of fusion,” he says, “is that it is 40 years away and always has been. We are continuing to put large quantities of money into something that may not deliver.”
But at Iter, which is due to be built in southern France, scientists insist commercial fusion is possible – and that when it is harnessed, the impact will be as revolutionary as promised.
“The challenges are extraordinary, but we want a pay-off at the end,” says David Campbell, deputy head of Iter’s Fusion, Science and Technology department. “I’m confident that Iter will emerge. From simple fuels like seawater, fusion produces huge amounts of energy with no long-lived radioactive by-products. In the long term, it could take over electricity generation.”
It is this prospect of “something for nothing” that, like the gold-producing alchemy of old, is beguiling. Energy from seawater – who wouldn’t invest?
The difference is that, unlike alchemy, nuclear fusion is a proven scientific fact. It has been happening, on a small scale, at a research centre outside Oxford since 1991.


I'm glad they're finally breaking ground. But I wish I didn't have to wait so long for this research facility to be up and operating.

Also, I wonder if the results that NIF achieves this year and next will have any bearing on Iter's construction or operation?
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Re: Fusion research at Iter: unlocking the power of the sun

Unread postby Graeme » Thu 23 Sep 2010, 18:01:57

Livermore lab nears launch of fusion quest

The scientists at the National Ignition Facility, or NIF, at Lawrence Livermore Laboratory are preparing to meet an end-of-month deadline for the first set of experiments in the final stretch of a national effort to achieve the long-sought goal of fusion -- a reaction in which more energy is released than put into it.

Lab officials promised congressional funders that before Sept. 30, the end of fiscal year 2010, they would start "credible ignition experiments" in the enormous facility, which officially opened in spring 2009.

The facility's primary mission is to ensure the safety and reliability of the nation's aging nuclear weapons stockpile through fusion experiments. If fusion is achieved, it also would open the door for research into unlimited sources of energy, such as using seawater as fuel, and would allow scientists to study celestial phenomena such as supernovas in new ways.

"And credible means that we have no reason to believe it's not going to work," Thomas D'Agostino, administrator of the National Nuclear Security Administration, which oversees the Livermore lab, told Sen. Dianne Feinstein during Congressional testimony in March.


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Re: Fusion research at Iter: unlocking the power of the sun

Unread postby dbruning » Thu 23 Sep 2010, 18:36:46

I've kind of written ITER off in my mind until I actually see something from them. The goal is impressive, the membership inspiring, the speed at which they are moving......minuscule. I've waited years for them to do anything except put out a pretty website. The squabbling over trivial details, the general lack of funding, these are the things I see as the eventual demise of the project rather than the technological aspects.

NIF, on the other hand, I still have a lot of hope for but I guess we'll see what they consider credible progress in a weeks time. At least they have a better time frame :P

We need humanity to have access to a new and clean source of energy. I doubt we'll cut back due to the deletion of oil, we'll just burn dirtier things and more of it, increasing the long term damage we do to this planet. If Cid is right it's all moot anyhow, but I would still like to see them come up with a commercially viable fusion plant....preferably not one that is due to come online in say 40 years hehe.
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Re: Fusion research at Iter: unlocking the power of the sun

Unread postby Ludi » Thu 23 Sep 2010, 18:50:43

dbruning wrote:We need humanity to have access to a new and clean source of energy. I doubt we'll cut back due to the depletion of oil, we'll just burn dirtier things and more of it, increasing the long term damage we do to this planet.



I'm not convinced that more energy will stop us from continuing damage. I mean, it's a lovely idea that it would, but I just don't really see that happening. I don't see a new and clean source of energy suddenly making us all say to each other "Oh, damn, we shouldn't have been wiping out the biosphere this whole time! I guess we'd better stop now that we've got this new, clean source of energy!" How would Mr Fusion stop us from continuing to cut down the rainforests, destroy the watersheds, kill the oceans, etc? :(
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Re: Fusion research at Iter: unlocking the power of the sun

Unread postby Graeme » Thu 23 Sep 2010, 19:07:04

Well, at least we wouldn't have to worry about lack of energy any more. We could then focus our attention on other challenges and perhaps use that extra energy to help resolve these issues too.
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Re: Fusion research at Iter: unlocking the power of the sun

Unread postby Ludi » Thu 23 Sep 2010, 19:13:59

Graeme wrote:Well, at least we wouldn't have to worry about lack of energy any more. We could then focus our attention on other challenges and perhaps use that extra energy to help resolve these issues too.



But we already have plenty of energy (in the First World), have had plenty for decades, and yet we continue the damage. Why would we suddenly change our way of life and our attitudes just because we have even more energy?
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Re: Fusion research at Iter: unlocking the power of the sun

Unread postby Graeme » Thu 23 Sep 2010, 19:36:11

I think this forum is about running out of our primary energy source - at least the affordable part. The physorg article states we could use fusion to make fuel from seawater. I presume this is hydrogen.
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Re: Fusion research at Iter: unlocking the power of the sun

Unread postby baha » Thu 23 Sep 2010, 20:58:04

It never ceases to amaze me how people need to "control the source of power". We already have a wonderful fusion reactor, no need to wait 40 years, it's called the sun. Anyone ever heard of a Dyson sphere? Wallow in ignorance or look it up yourself, I don't care. I know from experience I personally can live on solar power alone. In fact we all live on solar power, where do you think oil and coal came from...bunch of fucking idiots.
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Re: Fusion research at Iter: unlocking the power of the sun

Unread postby dbruning » Fri 24 Sep 2010, 12:52:13

But we already have plenty of energy (in the First World), have had plenty for decades, and yet we continue the damage. Why would we suddenly change our way of life and our attitudes just because we have even more energy?


I don't think it's a question of whether we'll stop the damage or not. I doubt we're smart enough to do stop, but I feel it is a question of how fast we do that damage. We'll do what we have to in order to get the energy we want, I'd just prefer as much as possible to come for a less polluting source.

It never ceases to amaze me how people need to "control the source of power". We already have a wonderful fusion reactor, no need to wait 40 years, it's called the sun. Anyone ever heard of a Dyson sphere? Wallow in ignorance or look it up yourself, I don't care. I know from experience I personally can live on solar power alone. In fact we all live on solar power, where do you think oil and coal came from...bunch of fucking idiots.


Hi Sunshine,
Thanks for contributing. We are very pleased you're all set to go with pure solar, but why so angry?
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Re: Fusion research at Iter: unlocking the power of the sun

Unread postby Cabrone » Sat 25 Sep 2010, 06:56:23

If and when they crack fusion I think it will be a game changing technology but we have big problems at the moment and 40 years is a very long time away. 40 years??? Someone needs to crack the whip here - the whole thing whiffs of wasteful state sponsored big beaurocracy.

Surely we should be concentrating far more on technologies like IFR? It promises to produce centuries of clean energy whilst consuming the 'waste' that we already have and seems to be a lot closer to reality than fusion. The same also goes for energy efficiency\renewable technologies. Fast gains for less cost.

I love the idea of fusion but we need to walk before we can run. If all they can offer is 'maybe 40 years' then I'd park fusion in the 'long term goal' bay and divert far more resource to where it can have a quicker effect. We don't have the luxury of 40 years!
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Re: Fusion research at Iter: unlocking the power of the sun

Unread postby Graeme » Thu 07 Oct 2010, 19:38:16

Fusion "Ignition" Test Conducted at Livermore Lab


The United States has completed its first test in a new line of experiments aimed at achieving nuclear fusion "ignition" using a giant laser array at the Lawrence Livermore National Laboratory in California, the U.S. National Nuclear Security Administration announced yesterday (see GSN, Oct. 1).

The successful test at the laboratory's National Ignition Facility focused one megajoule of energy on a pellet containing a combination of tritium, deuterium and hydrogen. The fuel blend was intended to enable the most comprehensive physics, a needed milestone in efforts to achieve ignition, the nuclear agency said (U.S. National Nuclear Security Administration release, Oct. 6). The pellet's temperature was reduced to minus 425 degrees Fahrenheit for the Sept. 29 test, the Contra Costa Times reported.

The energy of the facility's 192 lasers on the gold-coated pellet prompted the release of 1,000 times more neutrons than the site's previous experiments; such particles are expected to power future ignition tests, according to the newspaper (Suzanne Bohan, Contra Costa Times, Oct. 6).

Various systems under review performed together as expected in the test, which involved 26 target diagnostics, according to an NNSA press release. The process under investigation is mainly intended to help measure the safety and dependability of U.S. nuclear weapons, but it could also have energy and other applications.

“From both a system integration and from a physics point of view, this experiment was outstanding,” National Ignition Facility Director Edward Moses said in a statement. “This is a great moment in the 50-year history of inertial confinement fusion. It represents significant progress in our ability to field complex experiments in support of our NNSA Stockpile Stewardship, Department of Defense, fundamental science and energy missions” (U.S. National Nuclear Security Administration release).


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Re: Fusion research at Iter: unlocking the power of the sun

Unread postby Graeme » Sun 14 Nov 2010, 22:27:38

Sandia Announces Breakthrough in Nuclear Fusion Energy Generation

Researchers at Sandia National Laboratories have announced a breakthrough that could lead to break-even nuclear fusion reactions within 2-3 years. The goal of nuclear fusion research is to make energy from sea water, producing only the harmless gas helium as a result of the fusion reaction. It is the holy grail of clean, sustainable energy, the same process that powers our sun.

The nuclear fusion efforts involve research at the cutting edge of physics, where one of the avenues of exploration goes by the name "Z-pinch" (which should gain the technique immediate street cred should it be successful). So what is a Z-pinch? And how could it power the future?


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Re: Fusion research at Iter: unlocking the power of the sun

Unread postby diemos » Sun 14 Nov 2010, 22:37:28

Graeme wrote:Sandia Announces Breakthrough in Nuclear Fusion Energy Generation

Researchers at Sandia National Laboratories have announced a breakthrough that could lead to break-even nuclear fusion reactions within 2-3 years. The goal of nuclear fusion research is to make energy from sea water, producing only the harmless gas helium as a result of the fusion reaction. It is the holy grail of clean, sustainable energy, the same process that powers our sun.

The nuclear fusion efforts involve research at the cutting edge of physics, where one of the avenues of exploration goes by the name "Z-pinch" (which should gain the technique immediate street cred should it be successful). So what is a Z-pinch? And how could it power the future?


treehugger


Sigh.

Z-pinch has been working for years as a fusion based neutron generator. Going from wires to a solid cylinder to carry the pinch current will probably help to remove the instabilities in the pinch but you will still blow up the conductor on every shot.

Just one of those little practical details standing on the path between the lab and a power station that somehow always gets overlooked in press releases.
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Re: Fusion research at Iter: unlocking the power of the sun

Unread postby Outcast_Searcher » Sun 14 Nov 2010, 22:37:28

Ludi wrote: How would Mr Fusion stop us from continuing to cut down the rainforests, destroy the watersheds, kill the oceans, etc? :(


+1 Ludi. Though I generally disagree with you on economic issues, I think you're often spot-on on social/resource issues like this one.

Sadly, this would let us spend another generation or two piling our houses full of yet MORE junk. And with hundreds of millions of folks heading toward middle class wealth in the third world, the problem gets exponentially worse.

Our beaches are already "turning to plastic". Just think -- if we have "Mr. Fusion" we will have all that oil to make so much MORE plastic from, if we don't have to burn it.

I'm starting to think a P. K. Dick story where the earth ends up nothing but a bunch of automated systems mindlessly making and delivering stuff (and conducting resource wars againt other systems) long after all the humans are dead is a possible scenario if Mr. Fusion becomes commonplace.
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Re: Fusion research at Iter: unlocking the power of the sun

Unread postby pstarr » Mon 15 Nov 2010, 00:21:46

Outcast_Searcher wrote:I'm starting to think a P. K. Dick story where the earth ends up nothing but a bunch of automated systems mindlessly making and delivering stuff (and conducting resource wars againt other systems) long after all the humans are dead is a possible scenario if Mr. Fusion becomes commonplace.
Most folks do not know that the movie "Blade Runner" came from a great P. K. Dick book "Do Androids Dream of Electric Sheep?" The emphasis in the book (as opposed to the movie) was ecologic destruction.

All wildlife had been destroyed and people value fake robotic animals above all else. The protagonist Deckard ends up escaping outside the city, free at last, in what he perceives to be pristine wilderness. He rejoices when he finds a living animal (I think it was a toad). Deckard then sees the battery compartment door flip open. Very tragic scene. :(
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Re: Fusion research at Iter: unlocking the power of the sun

Unread postby Graeme » Fri 17 Dec 2010, 00:37:03

Nuclear fusion finance plan rejected by EU Parliament

A plan to rescue European financing of the Iter nuclear fusion reactor project has been rejected at the final hurdle.

Member states had wanted to reallocate 1.4bn euros from the existing Brussels budget to cover a shortfall in building costs in 2012-13.

But the European Parliament has refused to approve the plan.

Member states will now have to table a new proposal for early next year but access to the EU's 2010 budget is now closed.

Iter's director-general Osamu Motojima is due in Brussels tomorrow for critical talks with officials from the European Commission.



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Re: Fusion research at Iter: unlocking the power of the sun

Unread postby Keith_McClary » Fri 13 Apr 2012, 23:39:11

MIT Fusion Researchers Answer Your Questions (Slashdot Q&A)
1. What have we learned?

Fusion is one of those technologies that is always '50 years away,’ even 50 years ago, maybe even 50 years from now. So, looking at what's actually happened recently: What do we actually know now that we didn't know 10-15 years ago that gives support to the notion that we're making progress? Or, what are the 'big' things we know now? Similarly, what are the things we still don't know that we could reasonably expect to find answers for in the next 10-15 years?
...
3. Ubiquitous Fusion Power

When will fusion power my house (or vehicle)?
...
5. What Problems are Holding Back Successful Reactions?

Can you explain to a non-scientist what the biggest stumbling blocks are for an effective fusion reaction? Is it truly a matter of throwing money down an energy hole, or are there verifiable, measurable benchmarks that lead us from one step to the next? I.e. we’ve achieved X, now we need Y; when we get Y, we get Z and then achieve fusion. Is it the technology holding us back, the politics, or the science?
...
11. What level of investment would get fusion going?

Do you think a program the size of the Apollo program could kickstart fusion to general availability? Or would a smaller program suffice?

14. What could you do with unlimited resources?

Given $1 trillion, the pick of the best brains in the world to work willingly on the project, a large enough location away from any and all governmental regulation and every facility you could ever need - when would fusion be commercially viable?

Answers and 234 reader comments.
===============================================================
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Re: Fusion research at Iter: unlocking the power of the sun

Unread postby Graeme » Mon 23 Apr 2012, 22:12:52

PPPL scientists propose a solution to a critical barrier to producing fusion

Physicists from the U.S. Department of Energy's Princeton Plasma Physics Laboratory (PPPL) have discovered a possible solution to a mystery that has long baffled researchers working to harness fusion. If confirmed by experiment, the finding could help scientists eliminate a major impediment to the development of fusion as a clean and abundant source of energy for producing electric power.

An in-depth analysis by PPPL scientists zeroed in on tiny, bubble-like islands that appear in the hot, charged gases — or plasmas — during experiments. These minute islands collect impurities that cool the plasma. And these islands, the scientists report in the April 20 issue of the journal Physical Review Letters, are at the root of a longstanding problem known as the "density limit" that can prevent fusion reactors from operating at maximum efficiency.

Fusion occurs when plasmas become hot and dense enough for the atomic nuclei contained within the hot gas to combine and release energy. But when the plasmas in experimental reactors called tokamaks reach the mysterious density limit, they can spiral apart into a flash of light.

"The big mystery is why adding more heating power to the plasma doesn't get you to higher density," said David Gates, a principal research physicist at PPPL and co-author of the proposed solution with Luis Delgado-Aparicio, a postdoctoral fellow at PPPL and a visiting scientist at the Massachusetts Institute of Technology's Plasma Science Fusion Center. "This is critical because density is the key parameter in reaching fusion and people have been puzzling about this for more than 30 years."


Conquering the limit could provide essential improvements for future tokamaks that will need to produce self-sustaining fusion reactions, or "burning plasmas," to generate electric power. Such machines include proposed successors to ITER, a $20 billion experimental reactor that is being built in Cadarache, France, by the European Union, the United States and five other countries.


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