LENR, Rossi and the ECAT Thread pt 2 (merged)

[Captain Thunderbolt]

You have zero proof of your statements - besides how many times have you been eating beans

The proof of my statements is that I am stating the bleeding obvious.
The evidence is plain to see.

My dietary habits are no concern of yours.

[SeaGypsy]

Blinky Thunderbum is back! (Rahahahaha!) By popular appeal. Did you miss that Vision?

[Schadenfreude]

I explained to you before why my commentary on Rossi and Defkalion are negative.

And, of course, I understood your skepticism way before you ever heard of Rossi or LENR this time around. Because the idea of a scam is the first thing that occurs to anyone who has followed these dramas over the past year. It's the default position because there have been so many other energy scams and these claims of new energy physics are just outrageous. To say that you are an extreme skeptic of Rossi, Defkalion, etc. is to say absolutely nothing of interest.

It's only when you get corroboration from people like Roland Petterson, PhD Chemical Engineering professor (and others), who has been attending demos and scrutinizing Rossi's 2nd generation 1MW device, that the story gets more interesting and is worth paying attention to. There are a lot of academic types who are corroborating Rossi. That's newsworthy.

The rossi/defkalion competition for market has furnished a string of news stories. But news is appearing also from other researchers and scientific organizations. Lectures on LENR are commencing in pretty high level places - CERN, MIT, NASA, NETS,...

The default skeptic position offers not much in the way of newsworthiness. Here it is:

"This is a scam even though I cannot prove it. I don't have to prove it because anything like this is a scam and not worth anyone's time to begin with."

- you just wouldn't pay any attention to this at all, even though LENR and its attendant dramas are of high interest to many energy and science observers world wide.

So, OK, I disagree. I think the newsworthiness and controversy surrounding LENR is interesting and worth knowing about. It's a cool story.

So now that you can see that I understand perfectly well the skeptic position, you can breathe a sigh of relief and go home. I'm going to continue following this news in this thread.

[kublikhan]

And, of course, I understood your skepticism way before you ever heard of Rossi or LENR this time around. Because the idea of a scam is the first thing that occurs to anyone who has followed these dramas over the past year. It's the default position because there have been so many other energy scams and these claims of new energy physics are just outrageous. To say that you are an extreme skeptic of Rossi, Defkalion, etc. is to say absolutely nothing of interest.

The default skeptic position offers not much in the way of newsworthiness. Here it is:

"This is a scam even though I cannot prove it. I don't have to prove it because anything like this is a scam and not worth anyone's time to begin with."

So now that you can see that I understand perfectly well the skeptic position, you can breathe a sigh of relief and go home. I'm going to continue following this news in this thread.

Nope sorry Carl. I can't see you understand the skeptic position because you are talking out both sides of you mouth on the subject. On the one hand, you say skepticism is the default position. You even go so far to say it is soooo default it need not even be mentioned. On the other hand, you completely ridicule the skeptic position, calling them moron doomers and such. You even go so far as to try to shift the burden of proof onto the skeptic! So which is it there Carl? Is a skeptical attitude healthy and the default position? Or are skeptics to be ridiculed and hounded with demands of proof it is a scam?

It's only when you get corroboration from people like Roland Petterson, PhD Chemical Engineering professor (and others), who has been attending demos and scrutinizing Rossi's 2nd generation 1MW device, that the story gets more interesting and is worth paying attention to. There are a lot of academic types who are corroborating Rossi. That's newsworthy.

You have mentioned this many times as well. Yet attending a demo is not corroboration. Rossi has a history of putting on glitzy shows that wow audiences, including scientists, DOD, etc. One of his demos was so good that he even got the DOD to buy a buttload of his devices. Yet when they got the products back to their labs and put them under some real scrutiny, they failed miserably. Even supporters like Petterson have mentioned major flaws with Rossi's demos and have to use tepid statements like "it seemed to work in the demo". This is not the first time someone was wowed by one of Rossi's demos. He has a history of doing this. But then when they put the devices under independent scrutiny, they fail. It happened with Petroldragon, DOD thermocouples, and now with the E-Cat. So I call bollocks on your claims of scrutiny. All we really have is showmanship.

The rossi/defkalion competition for market has furnished a string of news stories. But news is appearing also from other researchers and scientific organizations. Lectures on LENR are commencing in pretty high level places - CERN, MIT, NASA, NETS,...

Yeah I've read a few of the ones you posted. And I noticed a marked contrast between what Rossi/Defkalion are claiming and what the others are claiming. For example, Rossi & Defkalion claim to produce a trillion times more power than the others can. You can't just lump claims of that magnitude into the same category as what the other LENR guys are claiming.

[Laromi]

kublikhan » Wed Mar 07, 2012 10:03 am

..."Is a skeptical attitude healthy and the default position? Or are skeptics to be ridiculed and hounded with demands of proof it is a scam?"

The quid pro quo is of course that both sides negate the others advantage through lack of evidence ( that is procedural evidence which can be tried and tested producing similar results).

However, that the notion LENR has some basis in fact by an ever increasing professional scientific audience tends to promote the hypothesis LENR has a place in physics, either by its own attributes or utilizing another hitherto unrecognised physic.

To my thinking, and based on evidence presented to and by this forum on that debate has the yea-Sayers well ahead. To me, one can yell and scream as hard as one wants, threaten others with dastardly acts or just pretend to be an anal sphincter, unless you have a teensy-weensy-iddy-biddy-little-bit-of-proof that something is not factual i.e. LENR in its concept or observed function is not, then you really have nothing except a lot of urine and flatus.

[Captain Thunderbolt]

The LENR/COLD-FUSION fanatics have got it back asswards.
The onus is on Rossi/Deadstallion to prove that it works and NOT upon the sceptics to prove that it doesn't.


http://open.salon.com/blog/skypixie0/20 ... gnosticism
If someone claims that there are fairies at the end of the garden is it up to me to prove them wrong? Or is it up to them to prove their claim? If I do not believe them and say so, are you now obliged to “take the position of reason”, as you called it, and state that you “do not know if there are fairies at the end of the garden?”


Sadly, in the real world there are heaps of companies that make false claims about their widgets.
They take munny from governments (i.e. taxpayers) and individuals to support their greedy lifestyles but never deliver their planet saving widgets because that is when the faeces hits the fan.
"Hey, your widget doesn't work like you said it would, and it made little Johnny's hair fall out. I want my munny back AND I'm going to sue your buttocks off"
Best to avoid that.
Widget not quite ready yet....send MUNNY

[SeaGypsy]

It's only when you get corroboration from people like Roland Petterson, PhD Chemical Engineering professor

Actually he retired as an associate professor. He also didn't write a thing about ECATs merely gave an interview to Nyteknik, which cannot be described accurately as 'corroboration'.

Nyteknik: Professor Roland Pettersson of Uppsala University Reports on Feb 20 E-Cat Demo
February 29, 2012
A new article in NyTeknik by Mats Lewan reports on the status of testing of Defkalion Green Technologies’ Hyperion reactor and Andrea Rossi’s E-Cat. Sources have told Lewan that the recent testing reported by DGT were safety tests. More tests will apparently be forthcoming.

Professor Roland Pettersson, retired associate professor of chemistry at Uppsala University in Sweden told NyTeknik that he, along with other unnamed persons, attended a demonstration on February 20th of Andrea Rossi’s E-Cat. Petterson told NyTeknik that the new versions of the E-Cat are more stable. Lewan writes, “Roland Pettersson told Ny Teknik that the system was now much more stable. A new set of control electronics was used and the system was started just pushing a button. However, no energy measurement was performed.”

Rossi had told me in a recent interview that the 1 MW plant had been overhauled, and that they had dealt with various problems one by one. This improved plant is apparently what Pettersson is describing. I asked Rossi why he considered the 1 MW plant a “magnificence” and he responded that he felt a great deal of satisfaction in the work he’d been able to accomplish with it. He sounded like an artist speaking about a masterpiece he had created.

Pettersson also told Nyteknik that he was shown a prototype of the small 10 kW E-Cat which he described as slightly larger than a laptop with inlets and outlets for water.

http://www.e-catworld.com/2012/02/nytek ... -cat-demo/

Besides that the guy is of no note anywhere significant before being roped in as Rossi's 'corroborator'.

After all this hooey, why no energy measurement performed?

Why is Carl pretending not to spruik Rossi whilst feeding anyone who reads this thread such absolute tripe?

Nobody in the world knows what an Ultra thingamy bobsy Neutron is except it's inventor. Nobody know who 'Petterson' was until he retired and joined Rossi's brigade.

You are hyping this garbage Carl, and you fully deserve to be called out on it.

[Alcassin]

kublikhan » Wed Mar 07, 2012 10:03 am

..."Is a skeptical attitude healthy and the default position? Or are skeptics to be ridiculed and hounded with demands of proof it is a scam?"

The quid pro quo is of course that both sides negate the others advantage through lack of evidence ( that is procedural evidence which can be tried and tested producing similar results).

No, it's a pink unicorn argument. One side says for 23 years that they have an unicorn, the second wants the proof. Because you can't prove negative (it's logically impossible), and the proof wasn't delivered then the claims should move into the cryptozoology, in other word - pseudoscience.

However, that the notion LENR has some basis in fact by an ever increasing professional scientific audience tends to promote the hypothesis LENR has a place in physics, either by its own attributes or utilizing another hitherto unrecognised physic.

I keep it simple - cold fusion. I don't like to use LENR/LANR/CANR abbreviations because they are invented only to obtain patents while cold fusion would not since late 90s. That's why they are patenting their "devices" as chemical machines to get some kind of product. They are not patented as power/heat generators. And because it is possible to patent a non-working device under a nominal disguise then I think you can patent anything (and falsify conspiracy claims).

Cold fusion moved from fringe science to pseudoscience in early 1994, when Fleischmann was indeed defeated by other scientists who tried to test his hypothesis and the result was contrary to his belief. Since 1994 nothing scientifically new happened in that matter. Cold fusion however became a hot topic for CT nuts, new age believers, free energy crowd and other gullible folks. And we have people who really invest in rolling scam.

To my thinking, and based on evidence presented to and by this forum on that debate has the yea-Sayers well ahead.

What kind of evidence has been presented so far? Because all of it has been debunked so far. The main hypothesis - that there is any kind of nuclear reaction has been debunked because the equations are not working, and the excess heat production has never been proved. That's all.
First should be verified by gamma radiation which should occur as a normal effect of nuclear reaction. The problem occurs here. Nuclear reactions shown by Rossi are not working that way.
Second should be measured by calorimetry. I there is some kind of new physics then I would urge to measure the device by calorimetry not by thermocouples/thermometer. Calorimetry measures heat, and heat isn't temperature. I see that cold fusionists abhor calorimetry therefore nobody falsified that Hyperion/Ecat/other device isn't a thermos. Because it would be my first thing to do as a scientist to prove my work I have came to a conclusion that's a scam.

Sorry, but that kind of breakthrough would guarantee me a Nobel prize in both physics and chemistry.

To me, one can yell and scream as hard as one wants, threaten others with dastardly acts or just pretend to be an anal sphincter, unless you have a teensy-weensy-iddy-biddy-little-bit-of-proof that something is not factual i.e. LENR in its concept or observed function is not, then you really have nothing except a lot of urine and flatus.

The observed function wasn't measured, we had a device plugged to electricity producing some vapor. I have that kind of device in my home, it's called electric kettle. To verify the claim all you need to do is test calorimetry, and Rossi/Defkalion/McKubre/others haven't produced a even a thin evidence in that matter.

Science isn't mystery it's a method.

PS. I concur SeaGypsy - these guys only happen to exist when they join cold fusion brigade.

[TheAntiDoomer]

Thanks Carl for the LENR links! No matter what happens its a fun story to follow!!

[Quinny]

Fun story - its f**king hilarious!

[vision-master]

I said in a statement before that I was not going to say anymore but now I feel I must, in light of the facts that Defkalion has gone dark because they are overwhelmed with emails, and people are making outrageous statements that make no sense.

Ladies and gentlemen, I would like to make a statement. It is about time that the whole world understands how this simple technology works. The key to understanding this technology is terminal resistance and surface area. Once the material is fired by a pulse or repetitive pulses, almost like what you would have in a car’s distributor, the nickel and hydrogen in the reactor will now produce a simple burst of energy controlling the duty cycle and the Rep rate of the pulse. As a matter of fact, nickel is not the only material that can be used. There are 15 other elements in powder form that can be used and COP’s can be reached as high as 250 and greater. The momentary ignition that produces a tiny amount of radiation is due to the ignition of the hydrogen at plasma temperatures, because the material is acting like a resistor that is saturated with hydrogen. Once the material has ignition internally at a molecular level, then you get a tiny impulse of gamma radiation; but very very small and usually always just once, and that is until the material heats up again. Once this takes place there is no need to worry about any radiation. I now believe that it is possible to go beyond that I have learned and experimented, with plasma technology and pulse impulse systems that can drive nanomaterials to extreme temperatures and high outputs. Defkalion should be reaching COP’s as high as 50 with a multi-chamber device as they described in their prints. With the research that they are doing now, they will find that a multi-stage firing system is one way to go about it, once they discover that the surface area and the terminal resistance is the key to understanding how this technology works.


My warmest regards to all,
Dave Farnsworth
Global Energy Systems

[vision-master]

Navy Secretary Ray Mabus: ‘Our Responsibilities Have to be Tied in to the Effects of Climate Change’

The Navy has always led when we’ve changed energy. In the 1850’s, we went from sail to coal. In the early part of the 20th century, we went from coal to oil. We pioneered the use of nuclear for transportation in the 1950’s. Every single time we did these things there were people who said ‘it’s a fad.’ There were people who said ‘you’re trading one very known source of propulsion or energy for something that’s unsure – too expensive or just won’t work.’ And every single time they were wrong. Every single time. And I am absolutely confident those folks are going to be wrong this time too.

http://thinkprogress.org/romm/2011/08/3 ... &mobile=nc

[Schadenfreude]

Seeking Alpha

Cold Fusion: A Cure For High Gas Prices

...The two units closest to coming to market, Hyperion by Defkalion and E-CAT by the Leonardo Corporation are capable of producing between 1 and 10 kilowatts of energy continuously for six months on a single charge. Most homes in the US are utilizing 50 Kilowatt-hours a day in energy use. You can calculate your own energy usage at the following site: Energy Usage Calculator. The point is these machines will soon be able to easily power all of your home's energy use. Use as much power as you want for as long as you want, all without significant financial cost or any environmental guilt. No guilt because there is no carbon dioxide (CO2) or any other kind of environmentally unfriendly emissions.

None of these small hi-technology startups are publicly traded, but the dramatic nature of the process powering these small yet powerful devices underscores their potential for becoming a disruptive, paradigm changing force in every market imaginable. Andrea Rossi's E-CAT has recently reported here that it has discontinued the relationship with National Instruments (NATI) and initiated one with Siemens AG (SI) to develop controllers for these units. Siemens also has a line of small steam powered electrical generators that may be modified to work with these units. Before you go to your broker and short oil, keep in mind it will probably be a year before you can purchase any type of device generating energy utilizing Cold Fusion. A year after that you may have access to something directly generating electricity that would be capable of powering a home including your electric car. Total monthly cost still $1.66.

One of the more informed articles I've read.

[kublikhan]

One of the more informed articles I've read(see link below for full text):

Many people who have followed the story of Andrea Rossi and his Energy Catalyzer are aware that Rossi’s claims are poorly supported by scientific facts, yet these people can’t imagine how Rossi intends to profit from this deception. Followers of the Rossi story ask, “What is Rossi’s endgame? If the Energy Catalyzer doesn’t work, how could he stand to profit?” This analysis will answer these questions. This analysis will also explain the real motive for Rossi’s 13 public demonstrations of the E-Cat.

Energy Catalyzer Short-Term Cash Strategy
Rossi had at least two profit strategies: one was short-term, the other long-term. For the long-term strategy, Rossi has known for many years that issued patents, and even pending patents, given the right development, or simply promotion, are money in the bank. Rossi also knows, through his own experience, that even devices that don't work can, at least in the short term, lead to cash.

In the early news stories, Rossi went to great lengths to impress on his fans that he was not asking for money.
Feb. 7, 2011: "We are fully funded by our customers."
March 10, 2011: “I am assuming all the risks. No one is risking any money except me. ... The €500,000 I am paying to the University of Bologna is my last money, but when I deliver the one-megawatt plant to Defkalion, I get cash back. From then on, 50% will be used for expansion and 50% to treat children with cancer. I will personally look for the children whose families cannot afford their care."
March 11, 2011: "All the money spent up to now has been my money. Furthermore: we are not searching [for] venture capital, we want to sell our energy, taking upon us all the risks, we are paying for all the research and development activity, we are not asking money from anyone. Our customers pay money only after successful testing of our E-Cats."

How could Rossi be fully funded by his customers in February, yet have received no money from customers in March? This is one of dozens of apparent Rossi lies.

Rossi also used the terms "customers" and "investors" in confusing and inconsistent ways. When it was beneficial for Rossi to appeal to the public that he was paying for his "research" out of his own pocket, he did so. This worked to gain appreciation from his many worldwide fans. When it was beneficial for Rossi to give the appearance that he had important companies making significant investments in his work, he did so. Not many of his fans stopped to recognize the logical contradictions.

Rossi asked Michael Nelson of NASA for $15 million and investor John Preston of Quantum Energy Technologies for at least that much to "test" his device. By February 2012, New Energy Times obtained hard evidence, an invoice from Rossi to a potential investor in Australia for $131,000, that Rossi was asking for money for something he could not deliver.

How did highly educated professionals in the scientific community not recognize the multiple contradictions in the Rossi story? How did they not see the scientific failure of Rossi's claim? Most of them were easily distracted by their hope that Rossi's claim was true. Most of the scientists who lent their reputation and credibility to Rossi were believers in “cold fusion,” one or two were advocates of hot fusion, and one was a Nobel Prize winner who was fond of the paranormal. Most of them had fought the war for “cold fusion” for two decades, and they were eager for vindication.

One newer LENR researcher, Brian Ahern, who did not have a dog in the 23-year cold fusion fight was disappointed in the behavior of some of his peers, as he wrote in an Oct. 9, 2011, e-mail to the Condensed Matter Nuclear Science e-mail list. "There is a psychological torment associated with Rossi within CMNS," Ahern wrote. "I think I am witnessing the behavior of 7-year-old children who cannot bring themselves to give up on Santa Claus. "Rossi is not Santa Claus. He has been tried, convicted and sentenced in Italy multiple times." [See full article for detailed listing of Rossi convictions]

We now arrive at the Oct. 28, 2011, demonstration, performed, according to Rossi, to allow an unidentified customer to verify that the 1 MW device worked as claimed. A man identified by Rossi as the customer's representative, Domenico Fioravanti, signed off on the pre-printed form below the line that stated "The results of the test are satisfactory to accept the delivery."

The next day, on his blog, Rossi told his fans that the 1 MW Energy Catalyzer was gone, delivered to the customer. As readers who have followed this saga know, that was a lie. But that did not become public knowledge until two months later, on Jan. 12, 2012, when Rossi revealed in his own promotional video that the big blue box hadn't moved.

Report #5: Rossi’s Profitable Career in Science

[Schadenfreude]

One of the more informed articles I've read(see link below for full text):

Many people who have followed the story of Andrea Rossi and his Energy Catalyzer are aware that Rossi’s claims are poorly supported by scientific facts, yet these people can’t imagine how Rossi intends to profit from this deception. Followers of the Rossi story ask, “What is Rossi’s endgame? If the Energy Catalyzer doesn’t work, how could he stand to profit?” This analysis will answer these questions. This analysis will also explain the real motive for Rossi’s 13 public demonstrations of the E-Cat.

Steven B Krivit is a staunch believer in LENR's capbility to revolutionize, democratize, energy production.

He thinks Rossi is pulling some kind of scam but he has not trashed Defkalion or other prominent LENR researchers the same way.

I love it when you quote LENR believers in your arguments.

[Schadenfreude]

Re: [Vo]:New Energy Times claim

Jed Rothwell
Wed, 07 Mar 2012 14:38:47 -0800

Jeff Driscoll <hcarb...@gmail.com> wrote:

he needs a gullible investor, or a fraudulent investor wanting to find a
bigger gullible investor, he's probably learned the game with his previous
fraudulent work

He has not learned it very well, has he? If he is a con-man, he is the most
inept con-man in Italy and Florida, which is saying a lot. Consider one
thing that Krivit wrote:

These people have also been impressed with the fact that Rossi has entered
into discussions with prestigious companies such as National Instruments
and institutions such as NASA. Although Rossi has managed to get his foot
in the door, none of those discussions has led to research agreements.
Rossi has, however, used those discussions to boost his credibility.

Krivit described the NASA visit in some of his earlier columns. I have
discussed the visit with several other people, and I confirm many aspects
of Krivit's description. This visit was a flaming fiasco. If this is how
Rossi "boosts his credibility" how could he diminish his credibility?
Perhaps by meeting the NASA people at the door naked, with a shotgun?

As far as I know Rossi has done absolutely nothing to boost his
credibility. On the contrary, everything he has done has blasted his
credibility to ribbons. I get the impression he does NOT care about
credibility, or about what other people think. No con-man can survive with
this attitude.

Regarding the NASA visit, the one aspect of it that I think Krivit reported
incorrect is the impression of the NASA people have of Rossi. They did not
leave the place thinking Rossi is a fake or that the steam from his device
is insufficient. They left thinking that Rossi is a strange person who did
not show them what he said he would. They cannot judge his claims.
Naturally, they were upset, but they were not convinced he is a fraud.

I do not think there is any evidence he is a fraud. There are appearances
or an impression he makes, but that is not evidence. Like Jones Beene, I
cannot imagine any method by which he could defraud people with this, and I
have not heard that anyone has been defrauded. As far as I know, no one has
even paid for a machine, but I could be wrong about that.

- Jed

[Schadenfreude]

Re: [Vo]:New Energy Times claim

Jed Rothwell
Wed, 07 Mar 2012 15:00:50 -0800

I meant to say Rossi DOES NOT care about credibility.

Here is an astounding statement from Krivit:

How did highly educated professionals in the scientific community not
recognize the multiple contradictions in the Rossi story? How did they not
see the scientific failure of Rossi's claim?

Is there any person familiar with Rossi who does not recognize "the
multiple contradictions in the Rossi story"?!? Who the hell is Kivit
talking about? I and other have compiled lists of contradictory technical
statements made by Rossi. There is such a flood of these, I can't keep up
with them. I would not try to keep up with his contradictory assertions
about his personal business. Krivit seems to think that he alone sees this,
and the rest of us are blind to it. This is like looking at Niagara falls
and thinking you are the only person who notices all that water and
everyone else is oblivious to it.

Fortunately, these "multiple contradictions" have no bearing on the
scientific success or failure of the claim. That can only be established
with reference to instrument readings, palpable heat, physical laws and
other objective evidence. Despite the poor quality of Rossi's tests, they
have proved beyond doubt that the claims are true. Rossi's personality and
his contradictory claims about his business cannot affect this conclusion.

- Jed

[kublikhan]

Steven B Krivit is a staunch believer in LENR's capbilities to revolutionize, democratize, energy production.

He thinks Rossi is pulling some kind of scam but he has not trashed Defkalion or other prominent LENR researchers the same way.

I love it when you quote LENR believers in your arguments.

That's good because maybe you'll actually give what I posted some thought. Like the fact that Rossi is a convicted felon, lies frequently, pays journalists to say nice things about the ecat, and has run scams like this in the past.

If the cold fusion guys(or LENR, LANR, or whatever they are calling themselves nowadays) want to play around with pseudoscience for 23 years, I say: GO FOR IT! No skin off my nose. But if Rossi and Defkalion want to push a free energy scam and defraud people of money, that is not cool at all.

And BTW, Krivit thinks Defkalion is a scam too.

Steven B. Krivit says:
As to the observation in your last paragraph, “what Rossi as alerted me to is that they Defkalion) stole his scam.!!” – that is exactly what it looks like to me
...

Low-energy nuclear reactions are certainly real, I have investigated and written about this research for the last twelve years. The Rossi and Defkalion claims, however, are dubious.

Rossi E-Cat Never Delivered To Customer
LENR Real; Rossi and Defkalion Dubious

[Schadenfreude]

Steven B Krivit is a staunch believer in LENR's capbilities to revolutionize, democratize, energy production.

If rossi and defkalion are dubious to krivit, then he MUST have other, better reasons to loudly support cold fusion research. Which he does.

Krivit is a big supporter of the Widom-Larsen Theory.
Lattice Energy, Larsen's LENR company, is also making preparations for market.

LENR stuff is also attracting high-level academics who speak at prestigious conferences on the topic. It's of interest to a wide variety of people from garage tinkerers to university and industry types.

The Rossi and Defkalion drama is but a sub-set of the larger worldwide activity going on in this field. but we pay attention to these two companies because they have been making most of the news lately.

So the story goes on...

[Quinny]

We pay attention to these two companies because they are the two being promoted in this thread!!