Forks Over Knives

[BasilBoy]

...from the movie's website:

The feature film Forks Over Knives examines the profound claim that most, if not all, of the degenerative diseases that afflict us can be controlled, or even reversed, by rejecting animal-based and processed foods.

I did a search for this movie and did not see it discussed on peakoil.com. However, I did read a thread discussing veganism, which had quite a bit of bad information...

One argument that many make against veganism is that homo sapiens evolved from eating meat. Hell, we have incisors, so we were meant to eat meat. Fair enough, I agree. However, as the author of The China Study (a great book if you want to learn about food and nutrition) points out, whatever may have contributed to gene propagation, or evolution, does not necessarily mean it contributes to the healthiest lifestyle. As an example, consider two populations: one that eats meat and 100% of its infants survive and another that eats only plants, but only 40% of its infants survive (perhaps due to a lack of necessary amino acids). Now, the first population could all die at the age of 40, while the survivors of the second population could all live to 90. The first population would 'win' the evolutionary battle, but it would say nothing about their diet being healthier. It would merely say that the first population had access to food that helped them survive infancy. Since Americans and other industrial peoples now have access to both types of food, such a paradigm no longer exists.

One other point: if we are going to look at our distant ancestors to determine what's best to eat (which I think is a mistake since our food choices are completely different today), we ultimately evolved from herbivores. There is absolutely no reason why we couldn't evolve back into herbivores...

[Cog]

Most non-human primates are omnivores, so the thought that humans should evolve back to something we are clearly not or ever were, is defeated by the scientfic evidence to the contrary.

[BasilBoy]

Most non-human primates are omnivores, so the thought that humans should evolve back to something we are clearly not or ever were, is defeated by the scientfic evidence to the contrary.

The above statement simply is not true. Gorillas, the largest and strongest of the primates, are herbivores. Orangutans are herbivores. Many primates are mostly plant eaters, getting their food from the tropical canopy. Sure, they might eat insects that are on leaves, but that's hardly comparable to hormone-injected, grain-fed cows and chickens. Some will hunt small mammals, yes...but the bulk of their diet is from plants.

Could you please provide me with the scientific evidence to which you allude? Thank you...

[Cog]

Chimpanzees are the most closely related to humans. But on this note, throughout the archeological record, humans have always eaten meat when the opportunity presented itself. Stone tools and co-located tool markings on the animal bones that they consumed make that very clear. We were never herbivores and neither are most primates. Eating insects on purpose takes you out of the strictly herbivore category.

Meat consumption by chimps. There is considerable variation across different chimp populations in flesh consumption, which also fluctuates up and down considerably within populations on a seasonal basis as well. (And behavior sometimes differs as well: Chimps in the Tai population, in 26 of 28 mammal kills, were observed to break open the bones with their teeth and use tools to extract the marrow for consumption,[76] reminiscent of early Homo habilis.) One population has been observed to eat as much as 4 oz. of flesh per day during the peak hunting season, dwindling to virtually nothing much of the rest of the time, but researchers note that when it is available, it is highly anticipated and prized.[77] It's hard to say exactly, but a reasonable estimate might be that on average flesh may account for about 1-3% of the chimp diet.[78]

The more significant role of social-insect/termite/ant consumption. Now of course, meat consumption among chimps is what gets the headlines these days,[79] but the bulk of chimpanzees' animal food consumption actually comes in the form of social insects[80] (termites, ants, and bees), which constitute a much higher payoff for the labor invested to obtain them[81] than catching the colobus monkeys that are often the featured flesh item for chimps. However, insect consumption has often been virtually ignored[82] since it constitutes a severe blind spot for the Western world due to our cultural aversions and biases about it. And by no means is insect consumption an isolated occurrence among just some chimp populations. With very few exceptions, termites and/or ants are eaten about half the days out of a year on average, and during peak seasons are an almost daily item, constituting a significant staple food in the diet (in terms of regularity), the remains of which show up in a minimum of approximately 25% of all chimpanzee stool samples.[83]

Breakdown of chimpanzee food intake by dietary category. Again, while chimp researchers normally don't classify food intake by the types of volume or caloric percentages that we Hygienists would prefer to see it broken down for comparison purposes (the rigors of observing these creatures in the wild make it difficult), what they do record is illustrative. A chart for the chimps of Lope in Gabon classified by numbers of different species of food eaten (caveat: this does not equate to volume), shows the fruit species eaten comprising approx. 68% of the total range of species eaten in their diets, leaves 11%, seeds 7%, flowers 2%, bark 1%, pith 2%, insects 6%, and mammals 2%.[84]

http://www.beyondveg.com/nicholson-w/hb/hb-biblio.shtml

[basil_hayden]

Here I was thinking that eating preservatives is what gets us to 100 these days...must be the petroleum.

[Cog]

There is also evidence that moutain gorillas are defintely insect eaters and may eat meat if the opportunity avails itself.

http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news ... feces-dna/

Like the vegetarian who can't resist the occasional burger, the otherwise herbivorous gorilla might succumb to cravings for its evolutionary cousins, a new study hints.

While some zoo specimens are known to eat meat, wild gorillas eat only plants and fruit, along with the odd insect—as far as scientists know (see video of wild gorillas feasting on figs).

But a recent study found DNA from monkeys and small forest antelopes called duikers in the feces of wild African western lowland gorillas in Loango National Park in Gabon.

The discovery raises the possibility that gorillas might have a secret meat habit—scavenging or hunting discretely.

(See gorilla pictures.)

Gorillas Eating Insects That Eat Mammals?

There may well be more mundane explanations for the surprising finding—explanations that'd have to be ruled out before gorillas could be reclassified as meat-eaters, said study co-author Grit Schubert, a primatologist at the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology in Leipzig, Germany.

For example, gorillas are known to eat ants that scavenge the carcasses and bones of monkeys and other mammals. When gorillas eat the ants, they may also be ingesting—and later expelling—the mammal DNA in the ants' digestive tracts, the study authors speculate.

[Cog]

Here I was thinking that eating preservatives is what gets us to 100 these days...must be the petroleum.

What does preservatives have to do with the fact that humans are not by nature herbivores.? We are discussing whether humans are omnivores or herbivores. If you want to rant about preservatives in meat, create your own thread for that purpose.

[Fishman]

Oh snap Cog!!. Basil's got to hate that you instantly destroyed his arguement, and with clear accurate data at that. I think we will be eating more veggies and my post peak preps reflect such, but I've also acuired assorted methods to obtain some animal protein if things get tough. I hear Russians under Stalin and Russians in Stalingrad during WW2 acquired a taste for fresh rat. Any recipes anyone? I'm thinking pressure cooked, topped with a scoop of Spam for flavoring. Perhaps our national dish if a certain president gets a second term?

[Cog]

I have nothing against veggies. I eat and plant a lot of them. But hominids have eaten meat and insects for millions of years. We were never herbivores and won't be in the future.

[BasilBoy]

...cog, you are confusing the issue. I already acknowledged that some primates hunt mammals and also said they might eat insects. Regarding chimps, your source acknowledges that their diet consists of about 1-3% flesh on average, which is a very small amount compared to the amount we eat. They are eating insects, which isn't on the menu in most industrialized countries. Also, if a vegan eats one ant, is he now an omnivore? Look at the information you have provided more closely and you will see that it does not refute anything I have said...rather, it supports it. Perhaps I was lax in my choice of words. How 'bout this: extant primates, excluding homo sapiens, are mostly non-flesh eating animals...

I never said homo sapiens were herbivores, I said we evolved from herbivores. I thought I clearly demonstrated why a diet that promotes evolution is not necessarily a diet that promotes longevity or well-being. It's a matter of survival and if you look at today's food supply, I think a VERY strong case can be made that a vegan, whole food diet will better help one survive longer. If you want to throw in a small amount (say 5% or less) of healthy meat (grass fed cows, wild fish, etc.), I don't see a problem.

Please keep in mind that we are not eating the meat, or other food, that our ancestors ate. We are currently eating Frankenfood...

[Cog]

If a herbivore diet would have promoted longevity and survival of the species then hominids would have employed it. The fact is, that as far back in the hominid record as you want to go, we have always been omnivores with a prediliction to eat meat whenever we could find it.

If you think that being a vegan leads to a longer life, then by all means go that route. Its just not the route that hominids have taken over the past few million years.

[BasilBoy]

Basil's got to hate that you instantly destroyed his arguement, and with clear accurate data at that.

I can only assume this was a joke or perhaps you were referring to the other Basil. If not, my argument was not destroyed and for what it's worth, it's not my argument. It's an argument that has been presented with scientific data. If you want the source, read the book The China Study as well as the actual China study.

Following the money also helps. If we all adopted a healthy, whole food vegan diet, our economy would shrink. Food production would be cheaper and health care costs would drop dramatically...

[BasilBoy]

If a herbivore diet would have promoted longevity and survival of the species then hominids would have employed it. The fact is, that as far back in the hominid record as you want to go, we have always been omnivores with a prediliction to eat meat whenever we could find it

Are you confusing the term hominids with humans? Hominid is the family and human is the genus. Extant hominids are primarily non-flesh eating animals, except for humans. Some hominids evolved by eating meat while others evolved by continuing to eat a predominantly plant-based diet. So, I don't have to go back at all....gorillas still exist, are hominids, and are predominantly herbivorous. Humans likely evolved by using their minds and being able to find other sources of nutrients, like bone marrow. You are totally missing the argument...

If you think that being a vegan leads to a longer life, then by all means go that route. Its just not the route that hominids have taken over the past few million years.

Well, I am trying it, but I'm not strict. I am not going to obsess over food and will eat a piece of fish or some cheese should such a situation present itself. However, I have dramatically changed my diet and I'm seeing and feeling results. What I find interesting is that it's not restrictive at all...quite the contrary. I'm eating stuff I didn't even know existed and it tastes great...

[babystrangeloop]

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caveat emptor

[basil_hayden]

Here I was thinking that eating preservatives is what gets us to 100 these days...must be the petroleum.

What does preservatives have to do with the fact that humans are not by nature herbivores.? We are discussing whether humans are omnivores or herbivores. If you want to rant about preservatives in meat, create your own thread for that purpose.

Well Junior, I think it was you who ought to start a new thread instead of derailing this one.

"We" were talking about the premise that the rejection of animal-based and processed foods could lead to the control of degenerative diseases that afflict us. "I" brought up the simple fact that we have longer lifespans despite our intake of animal-based a processed food products and surmised that what we eat may have nothing to do with the presence of degenerative diseases, but the fact that we essentially "eat" petroleum and make it our slave does have something to do with the presence of degenerative disease. "You" are trying to argue with the Original Poster (OP) regarding paleodiet versus the current Standard American Diet (SAD) when you appear to have little grasp of what our paleodiets were, nor our ancestor's paleodiets.

So I inquire once again in simpler terms that you may understand:

If Frankenfood is so bad for us, why do we live so long?

If diet is not the source of degenerative diseases, is the lack of effort on our part these days a potential source?

Or are degenerative diseases just a nuisance and do not in actuality kill us?

It's a pity my single line confused you so much, do try to keep up and on-topic. Cheers.

[Shaved Monkey]

As to longevity from a vegan diet I call BS
Many factors involved
Calories in calories out
Types calories
Wealth
Health care system

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_co ... expectancy
The people who live the longest currently are the Japanese
They eat way more fish than the rest of us
Australia's up there and we eat a lot of meat.
India is down at 139 probably the highest number of pure vegetarians in the world live there.
The US is at 36 and Canada is at 12 this can only be explained by socialist welfare V private health care as the diets and genetics and climate would be similarish and so would the health care training and facilities.

UK is at 20 and they have really bad diets but cheap healthcare.
interesting
Cuba has poverty, a largely vegetarian diet, a socialist healthcare,much lower standards in medical equipment and is equal to the US on 36.
This could be cultural or genetic ???

[vtsnowedin]

Our teeth and digestive tract clearly show us to be omnivores which means we can and do eat both vegetable matter and meat and the proportion of each is only determined by what is available to each of us individually. This flexibility has served us well over the last five million years or so. It would be foolish for a rice farmer to want to only eat meat and equally foolish for an Inuit (Eskimo) to want to eat oatmeal. I suspect that we will all eat a lot less meat in the not to distant future based on availability but this will neither kill us nor make us more healthy.

[Hawkcreek]

There is a lot of data that says the our increasingly poor health is due to simple versus complex carbs and in conjunction with fats, rather than a simple meat versus veggies diet.
I think that sugar and flour are killing us, not an occasional steak.

[vtsnowedin]

There is a lot of data that says the our increasingly poor health is due to simple versus complex carbs and in conjunction with fats, rather than a simple meat versus veggies diet.
I think that sugar and flour are killing us, not an occasional steak.

That may be true for those living the western lifestyle but as there are now seven billion of us worldwide there is little evidence that diet is holding us back as a species.

[BasilBoy]

It is quite amazing how bad the information is here. Many of you argue points I'm not even making. Gorillas are herbivores..."NO, chimps eat 1-3% flesh...gotcha". I mean, seriously? "Humans are clearly omnivores"....uhm, yeah, I know. I never once claimed that homo sapiens are herbivores. I explicitly showed you how gene propagation might work and how that's not proof of what might be healthier to humans TODAY. It seems that few here understand that our current food supply is not the same as it was 200,000 years ago. We have more options...

It is quite clear that Americans are not healthy. We have higher rates of obesity, diabetes, cancer, and heart disease than many other peoples. To think that our food supply has nothing to do with it is quite ignorant. There is VERY strong evidence that shows that eating a whole food (this eliminates the sugar and white flour as other poster points out), plant-based diet will help prevent disease. Such a statement does not say, "eating a whole food, plant-based diet will help prevent disease and humans are not omnivores and if you eat any meat products you will die".....