THE Battery Technology Thread pt 2 (merged)

[JRP3]

I think the car will change. Why drive a monster around when a small, lightweight car would do?

Until laws change it's not possible for many. I could use a NEV for most of my driving needs, but NEV's can't be used on roads with higher than 35mph speed limits, which means I can't leave my driveway. Also I'd need something that could deal with deep snow for some of the year, or at least I used to, since we've had almost none this winter.

[JRP3]

I bet I can go faster and carry more on my vehicle, which doesn't need plugging in, runs on the same food I eat, keeps me fit and cost $600 15 years ago. They sell for around the same price today.

How fast does it go up hill, do you like it in the rain and snow, and where do I put my dog? Yeah, bikes are cool, but let's not pretend they can replace enclosed, powered vehicles for much of the population.

[JRP3]

Great, so we can run our cars on coal and Uranium, instead of oil.

Or wind, hydro, solar, and thorium.

[pstarr]

I think the car will change. Why drive a monster around when a small, lightweight car would do?

Until laws change it's not possible for many. I could use a NEV for most of my driving needs, but NEV's can't be used on roads with higher than 35mph speed limits, which means I can't leave my driveway. Also I'd need something that could deal with deep snow for some of the year, or at least I used to, since we've had almost none this winter.

this is where I agree with you and rockdoc. While EV (and NG vehicles) are theoretically possible, they do not meet the particular transportation needs of the real world where work is done.

As for bikes many folks are old, have kids and pets, live in exurbia, on steep hillside. Some have long commutes. Winter. Summer. Rainstorms.

the-world-does-not-care-if-you-are-green-and-young.

As for EV and NG; many vehicles on the road are really multipurpose, and a typical commuter vehicle might also do work in a factory, pasture, farm field, wood lot, mine or timberland. They have to pick up and deliver materials. Many need to park and stay where electricity and NG are not available. The world does not run on apps. It is fine and nice to expect people to own many vehicles for different jobs but for most there is not the money or room to store them.

The answer; mass transit. the problem with that; we are too dispersed in american suburbia.that is our predicament, to which there probably is not solution.

[JRP3]

Lessee, a gallon of gas contains about 132 megajoules. There's about 7 gallons worth in a cubic foot, or about 924 megajoules per cubic foot. Got a battery with that energy density? Get back to me on that one, eh?

You forgot to do the rest of the math. ICE vehicles are maybe 20% efficient, EV's better than 80% efficient. Nor do we actually need to be able to travel 100's of miles on a whim. We don't need batteries with the same energy density of fossil fuels, ever. We can already do over 300 miles of range with existing technology, as Toecutter pointed out, and Tesla is already doing it in a luxury performance sedan. Further advances will just allow us to do it in less expensive vehicles.

[JRP3]

[ this is where I agree with you and rockdoc. While EV (and NG vehicles) are theoretically possible, they do not meet the particular transportation needs of the real world where work is done.

This is where I disagree with you. Though NEV's aren't the answer for many people, moderate range EV's can be. That's why I did an EV conversion, I get a road legal vehicle with full performance and a 50 mile range. If there is a market and OEM's see the light they can make a similar even more efficient vehicle at an affordable price, and if batteries improve and get cheaper it becomes even easier, and at some point my car will have 100 miles of range, or more.

[pstarr]

JP3 have you ever re-wired a house? Now imagine trying to rewire a concrete apartment garage, or a office-complex/shopping-center parking so the folks can recharge when they are out. Have you ever drove a vehicle for work. Not to work. But for work. I don't think the REAL WORLD is ready for EV.

I have come to believe that personal transport is not the answer. It is an indulgence of ours that will not last much longer.

[JRP3]

You don't need to rewire a complex, you add a single extra circuit for a single extra outlet for each dwelling. Most likely a separate feed to the parking area from the transformer. A 15 amp 120V circuit is all that is needed to replace an average day's commute over night. Same can be done at the work place to allow solar charging while parked at work. Fast charge stations can provide the extra when needed. More to your point apartment dwellers are more likely to have good access to public transportation and won't need a personal vehicle. Those of us in more rural areas will need personal transportation, and there is no reason it can't be made much more efficient and run mostly from daytime solar at very low cost per mile. The REAL WORLD drives less than 40 miles per day, how is that not ready for EV's? Many delivery and work vehicles drive less than 100 miles per day as well. EV's don't have to work for every situation to work well for many.

[JRP3]

I should add that I added a circuit to the outside of my home, including drilling through a concrete wall. Cost me less than $50 and about half an hour of time, and that was for a 240V 30 amp circuit.

[rockdoc123]

EV's don't have to work for every situation to work well for many.

I believe this is the important point. Too often people propose a given solution as being the one true solution for everywhere and everyone. This sort of myopia only creates further problems in trying to diversify away from intense hydrocarbon usage.
In reality the only way out of this mess (to my mind) is to use other technologies appropriately and encourage that application where it makes sense but not advocate for where it doesn't. As an example would it make sense to own a D9 Cat if all you had to do each year was dig a 100m square vegetable garden? Of course not you could do that with a spade and a bunch of food energy. On the other hand it would make no sense whatsoever in this day and age to construct a dam simply with spades. The right tool for the right task. Just as it makes no sense whatsoever for someone living in the country to attempt a 20 km commute through 2 feet of snow in windblown conditions in a little electric vehicle it also makes no sense for someone who lives in the city to be driving around constantly in a full size Range Rover.

My view is that if you mix the use of electricity from various sources including nuclear, wind, water along with traditional hydrocarbon sources while taking advantage of extensive natural gas to create GTL (diesel set off) and propane fuel sources a difference can be made. Run trains off of electric, use the GTL to power the trucking industry, propane for other commercial uses. Provide incentives for car manufacturers to make vehicles more fuel efficient (we know this is possible as BMW this past year came out with a new M5 that has more power but also better fuel consumption stats). It seems to me the problem is that everyone approaches the problem from a single solution perspective rather than holistically.

[vision-master]

the fact of the matter is that in North America many people live in suburbs for a reason....the centre of the city is overcrowded, and often rife with crime. In many cities the public transport is either unreliable or overutilized. This requires commuting.

Oh bs......... they live in the burbs so they can have bigger yards and houses.

[ralfy]

Best to focus on regular electric rail to carry vital cargo, EVs for emergencies, diesel-powered and other vehicles for cargo to places where roads are rough, and bicycles, animal power, walking, etc., for short trips. Most of the cargo will consist of tools and resources to supporting planting food, medicine and medical equipment, etc.

Even the resources and energy that are needed to provide "electric cars to all" might not even be enough to provide for such necessities.

[pstarr]

rockdoc, I could fill my tank in less time than it took to explain your convoluted energy future.

[furrybill]

Interesting article that relates to this discussion:

http://www.solarfeeds.com/did-you-know- ... -than-evs/

[JRP3]

Unfortunately he makes a fundamental error, that keeps getting repeated. Around 6kWh's of ENERGY is used per gallon of refined gasoline, but only a small portion of that energy is electricity. Gasoline production is an inefficient process, likely to get more so as the easy high quality oil gets depleted, but using inaccurate figures to make a point serves no purpose.

[Frank]

Do you have a source for your rebuttal? He claims it takes 6kwh to pump water around which is the source of the electricity consumption. It sounds like a lot but who knows for sure. I always thought most of the energy consumed during refining came from the crude itself. I've tried to research electricity consumption myself but couldn't find anything definitive.

[kublikhan]

New index shows price of vehicle-grade lithium-ion batteries is dropping rapidly, due to excess manufacturing capacity and weak demand. The average price for an electric vehicle lithium-ion battery pack was $689/kWh in Q1 2012, down 14% from approximately $800/kWh a year earlier and down around 30% from $1000-plus levels in 2009.

Electric vehicles such as the Mitsubishi Motor iMiEV, Nissan Leaf or Tesla Model S require between 16 and 85kWh of storage, with a total cost of $11,200 and $34,000, or around 25% of the total cost of the vehicle. Battery pack prices for plug-in hybrid vehicles such as GM’s Volt are on average 67% higher in terms of $/kWh, than those for electric-only vehicles like Nissan’s Leaf. This higher price is mainly due to the greater power-to-energy performance required for plug-in hybrid vehicles.

Bloomberg New Energy Finance expects the cost of lithium-ion batteries to drop as far as $150/kWh in 2030 (in 2012 dollars).

"Batteries are one of the biggest drivers of the cost of electric vehicles, and hence of their uptake. A sharp decline in price may be unwelcome for battery manufacturers, but it is essential for the long-term health of the sector. Battery prices will be one of the key pieces of data for investors, policy-makers and the car industry to watch over the next few years, and that is why we have launched this index."

Electric vehicle battery prices down 14% year on year

[JRP3]

Do you have a source for your rebuttal? He claims it takes 6kwh to pump water around which is the source of the electricity consumption. It sounds like a lot but who knows for sure. I always thought most of the energy consumed during refining came from the crude itself. I've tried to research electricity consumption myself but couldn't find anything definitive.

Actually he just says this:

In California, oil refineries are the second largest users of electricity. Moving water around the state via water authorities is the single largest contributor to state electricity use. And, you guessed it, refining crude also takes a tremendous amount of water!

He doesn't give any value to the energy used or any value to the amount of water used. While it's true that refineries use a lot of electricity it's also true that most of it is generated from petroleum byproducts, which also supplies power to the grid. However on a percentage basis the largest energy input in refining is heat, not electricity. They entire petroleum cycle is considered to be around 80% efficient from the well to the gas station. With around 33kWh equivalent in each gallon of gas that means about 6.6kWh's, 20%, of that energy equivalent is used to create it. Only a small portion of that 6.6kWh of potential energy is actually electricity, and most of it, maybe all of it, came from petroleum byproducts, like natural gas.

[stevensrd1]

Just thought I would mention this,,since it relates to the battery. Ive been powering things on water for some time now. Thats without using any salts, acids or chemicals, just water. Ive been running things like wall clocks,,digital clocks,,led lights and so forth on just water cells. Ive explained how its done as well. To see the live cam always showing something powered on water, with links as well to the videos of how such is done, visit http://blinkyblue.zapto.org

[kublikhan]

Looks like molten salt batteries are getting better and going mainstream.

Sumitomo Electric Industries Ltd. plans to sell a sodium-ion battery it is developing to makers of electric and hybrid passenger cars, expanding beyond the original target of commercial-vehicle fleet operators. “We can expect overall sales of the batteries to be boosted because we are now targeting a much big sector of the automotive market.”

Sumitomo, which supplies electrical wiring to Toyota Motor Corp. and Volkswagen AG, said in March it developed a cheaper alternative to lithium-ion batteries that uses liquefied salt as an electrolyte. It aims to begin production of the batteries in 2015 and targets revenue of more than 1 trillion yen ($13 billion), Chief Executive Officer Masayoshi Matsumoto said at the time.

Sumitomo Electric said its new battery can be made cheaper and safer compared with lithium-ion batteries because liquefied salt costs less and is noncombustible.

Sumitomo Electric May Expand Sodium Battery Sales to Carmakers

GE Energy Storage Technologies, a unit of GE Transportation, introduced its Durathon sodium-metal halide battery for critical backup power. The battery can be used in uninterruptible power supply (UPS) applications for large data centers, hospitals, and other areas where a continuous supply of power is necessary. GE has also introduced Durathon batteries for applications in the telecom and utility industries. GE is also using the technology to develop advanced transportation energy storage systems.

Because of its proprietary chemistry, the Durathon battery has the ability to provide back-up service for up to two decades. The battery has a high energy density that, along with its ability to replace current technology, minimizes installation costs.

GE Launches Durathon Sodium-Metal Halide Battery for UPS Market

Arista Power, a manufacturer, designer and integrator of renewable energy generation, management and distribution systems, has selected GE's new Durathon Battery system for use in its new Power on Demand Systems. GE's Durathon Battery is the product of a $100 million investment in next-generation battery technology. Durathon™ is a nickel salt battery that is marketed for telecommunications, utilities and uninterruptable power supply (UPS) applications.

GE's Durathon is 50 percent smaller and 25 percent lighter than traditional batteries, enabling more energy to be stored in a smaller space. In addition, Durathon Batteries can last up to 20 years, operate effectively in extreme temperatures, are recyclable, and require no cooling and only minimal maintenance.

Arista Power selects GE Durathon Battery for new Power on Demand Systems