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THE Saudi Arabian Oil Co. (ARAMCO) pt 2 (merged)

General discussions of the systemic, societal and civilisational effects of depletion.

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Re: THE Saudi Arabian Oil Co. (ARAMCO) pt 2 (merged)

Unread postby rockdoc123 » Tue 20 Sep 2011, 15:40:41

Rock, how come you never engage the experts at TOD?


I have from time to time over the years, most recently on the MacCondo well disaster thread.

My original reason for staying more on this site was I felt the information I could bring to the table would be helpful to more people. I find I likely spend too much time here as it is. I note that some of the other industry folk migrated away from PO and stay exclusively on TOD. I think either I'm thicker skinned or have more patience than they did.

I do think you need to qualify the term "expert". There is some good analysis done on TOD and there are a handful of experienced oil and gas professionals who report from time to time. But often there are authors who present in an authoritative manner and fail to point out the uncertainties in their analysis/statements which can easily be construed by less knowledgeable folks as "expert opinion". Don't get me wrong I think it is OK to speak with conviction but at the same time you need to acknowledge where the uncertainty lies. This is especially true of what I refer to as "remote sensing" analyses which aren't to do with satellites and the like but rather analyses where you have no direct measure and must infer conclusions based on sparse information. That was the whole point of the Saudi reserves thread of years gone by. It was intended to amalgamate all the bits and bobs of information from various sources and discuss them with respect to what was valid, what wasn't and what was still unknown. I think the best example of someone who was touted as an "expert" but who was far from it in the fields he dabbled in was Matthew Simmons (god rest his soul). For the average person reading his book and viewing his presentations it would appear that he really knew what he was talking about but once you went and looked at all the SPE publications he claimed to have read it was pretty clear that he had likely only read the abstract and worse yet did not really understand what was being said.
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Re: THE Saudi Arabian Oil Co. (ARAMCO) pt 2 (merged)

Unread postby seahorse3 » Tue 20 Sep 2011, 16:59:13

Well, I appreciate your staying here. I like more direct access to experts than can be had at TOD. Over the years, we have had a number of good "experts" here, and like you, they all took PO seriously and believed it was more an immediate concern than CERA, Yergin or the like would have us believe. Unfortunately, not all the experts we have had here have stayed.

As for the non-experts like Simmons, he may have made mistakes, but he also made great contributions to the issue of PO and SA in particular. Like it or not, SA is critical to every assumption we make about world politics, economics, etc, bc of the role they play in oil production. The same can be said of Russia and a few others. His book was critical in getting many MSM economic types to ask critical questions about BAU, which always assumed the world GDP could grow indefinitely because it was assumed Opec could increase oil production indefinitely. BAU never foresaw any limits. He was right, and we are increasingly seem that there are limits, that oil production doesn't always just go up (our plateau) and that leads to consequences and change - Arab springs, falling GDPs, bankrupt countries, etc.

Further, I believe, he pointed out that SA is at maximum production. Now, we can argue about another 2mpd in spare capacity, but even if they have it, they don't claim to have anymore than that. That was critical and is critical for MSM economist to understand that world GDP cannot grow indefinitely at 3-4% as was expected. Finally, the IEA and others are changing those assumptions that used to assume Opec would always make up the difference needed to grow world GDP until 2030. So, Simmons made a necessary contribution in a way that others were not able to.
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Re: THE Saudi Arabian Oil Co. (ARAMCO) pt 2 (merged)

Unread postby rockdoc123 » Tue 20 Sep 2011, 19:54:31

I don't disagree with the fact Simmons made a contribution. on a couple of threads here when we argued about his various statements my comment was his major contribution was in bringing the concept of Peak Oil to the general populace. The unfortunate part was too many people took his statements regarding SA going belly up based on his reading of SPE articles as fact. having read the articles and knowing quite a bit about the subject matter it was pretty obvious the situation was not as dire as depicted which I believe has been shown to be the case.
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Re: THE Saudi Arabian Oil Co. (ARAMCO) pt 2 (merged)

Unread postby misterno » Fri 23 Sep 2011, 23:08:11

I don't want to change the course of discussion here but I can't help asking this question

Now that we are deep in recession and as a result the depressed oil prices, how would you think SA will compensate the additional revenue to balance the budget?

According to what I read, they need at least $100/barrels next year to balance the budget. Yet we are heading towards $70 this year. Maybe lower

If they can not balance the budget, then what would happen?
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Re: THE Saudi Arabian Oil Co. (ARAMCO) pt 2 (merged)

Unread postby OilFinder2 » Tue 06 Dec 2011, 17:38:27

Saudi Arabia Crude Production Rises to Highest in Three Decades
Saudi Arabia, the world’s biggest crude exporter, boosted output last month to the most in more than three decades to meet customer demand.

“We produced 10 million and 40 barrels in November because that’s what the customers wanted,” Ali al-Naimi said in an interview in Durban, South Africa, where he is attending a climate conference. That’s the highest level since at least 1980, according to data from the U.S. Energy Department. The desert nation pumped 9.4 million barrels a day in October, al- Naimi said on Nov. 20.

Saudi Arabia, the largest and most influential member of the Organization of Petroleum Exporting Countries, will meet with other members of the group on Dec. 14 in Vienna to set output targets for early 2012. The kingdom raised supply this year to make up for halted production in Libya and help prevent oil prices from surging

[...]
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Re: THE Saudi Arabian Oil Co. (ARAMCO) pt 2 (merged)

Unread postby OilFinder2 » Tue 06 Dec 2011, 17:50:08

pstarr wrote:dude. SA is still below their 1980 9.9 mbpd peak.

:lol:
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Re: THE Saudi Arabian Oil Co. (ARAMCO) pt 2 (merged)

Unread postby rangerone314 » Tue 06 Dec 2011, 18:40:48

The # of rigs they have deployed, their public touting of the sufficiency of tar sands & shale oil to meet demand & their oil production level suggest they have no spare capacity left and will be going off the cliff soon.
An ideology is by definition not a search for TRUTH-but a search for PROOF that its point of view is right

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Re: THE Saudi Arabian Oil Co. (ARAMCO) pt 2 (merged)

Unread postby Bruce_S » Tue 06 Dec 2011, 19:37:49

rangerone314 wrote:The # of rigs they have deployed, their public touting of the sufficiency of tar sands & shale oil to meet demand & their oil production level suggest they have no spare capacity left and will be going off the cliff soon.


Seems like things along these lines have been claimed since the oil crisis of the 70's. Back then we were told it required finding a new Saudi Arabia every 3 years to keep up with demand. Here we are, 34 years later, and still, only 1 Saudi Arabia. And they are still running out of oil. I wonder if we can keep running out of oil into the next century as well?
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Re: THE Saudi Arabian Oil Co. (ARAMCO) pt 2 (merged)

Unread postby rangerone314 » Tue 06 Dec 2011, 19:40:29

Bruce_S wrote:
rangerone314 wrote:The # of rigs they have deployed, their public touting of the sufficiency of tar sands & shale oil to meet demand & their oil production level suggest they have no spare capacity left and will be going off the cliff soon.


Seems like things along these lines have been claimed since the oil crisis of the 70's. Back then we were told it required finding a new Saudi Arabia every 3 years to keep up with demand. Here we are, 34 years later, and still, only 1 Saudi Arabia. And they are still running out of oil. I wonder if we can keep running out of oil into the next century as well?

Is that the best you can offer, snarkiness?
An ideology is by definition not a search for TRUTH-but a search for PROOF that its point of view is right

Equals barter and negotiate-people with power just take

You cant defend freedom by eliminating it-unknown

Our elected reps should wear sponsor patches on their suits so we know who they represent-like Nascar-Roy
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Re: THE Saudi Arabian Oil Co. (ARAMCO) pt 2 (merged)

Unread postby Bruce_S » Tue 06 Dec 2011, 20:02:26

rangerone314 wrote:Is that the best you can offer, snarkiness?


You confuse snarkiness with the point. The point being (for those who confused it with snarkiness) that Saudi Arabia has been running out for a long time. Their oil production peaked back like 30 years ago. And yet...there they are....pumping oil..again...some more...and some more....

Takes a few more wells now? Okay. Certainly those who assumed previously that they were nose diving towards the desert were a bit premature.

http://www.theoildrum.com/node/2331
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Re: THE Saudi Arabian Oil Co. (ARAMCO) pt 2 (merged)

Unread postby rangerone314 » Tue 06 Dec 2011, 22:44:29

Bruce_S wrote:
rangerone314 wrote:Is that the best you can offer, snarkiness?


You confuse snarkiness with the point. The point being (for those who confused it with snarkiness) that Saudi Arabia has been running out for a long time. Their oil production peaked back like 30 years ago. And yet...there they are....pumping oil..again...some more...and some more....

Takes a few more wells now? Okay. Certainly those who assumed previously that they were nose diving towards the desert were a bit premature.

http://www.theoildrum.com/node/2331

Nice that oil is $100/bbl during a crap economy. Thats a sign of how plentiful oil is and how high production is.
An ideology is by definition not a search for TRUTH-but a search for PROOF that its point of view is right

Equals barter and negotiate-people with power just take

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Re: THE Saudi Arabian Oil Co. (ARAMCO) pt 2 (merged)

Unread postby OilFinder2 » Tue 06 Dec 2011, 23:22:58

rangerone314 wrote:The # of rigs they have deployed, their public touting of the sufficiency of tar sands & shale oil to meet demand & their oil production level suggest they have no spare capacity left and will be going off the cliff soon.

I wish I had a dime for every time someone predicted Saudi oil production was about to fall off a cliff. :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:
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Re: THE Saudi Arabian Oil Co. (ARAMCO) pt 2 (merged)

Unread postby OilFinder2 » Tue 06 Dec 2011, 23:41:24

rangerone314 wrote:Nice that oil is $100/bbl during a crap economy. Thats a sign of how plentiful oil is and how high production is.

Image
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Re: THE Saudi Arabian Oil Co. (ARAMCO) pt 2 (merged)

Unread postby rangerone314 » Wed 07 Dec 2011, 06:02:46

Bruce_S wrote:
rangerone314 wrote:Nice that oil is $100/bbl during a crap economy. Thats a sign of how plentiful oil is and how high production is.


The real price of crude was higher during the late 70's/early 80's. During a crap economy. Plus we had shortages and rationing, which we don't have now. And production is higher now than it was then, plus we are in the process of reversing US production rates as Oilfinder2 has pointed out previously. Over at TOD some of the industry guys are making cash hand over fist. I recommend finding a job in the oil patch, allowing regular people to then laugh at those who think retail jobs are worth spit.

#1) Oil supply was artificially constrainted in 70s.
#2) China and India didn't have many cars in the 70's.
An ideology is by definition not a search for TRUTH-but a search for PROOF that its point of view is right

Equals barter and negotiate-people with power just take

You cant defend freedom by eliminating it-unknown

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Re: THE Saudi Arabian Oil Co. (ARAMCO) pt 2 (merged)

Unread postby rangerone314 » Wed 07 Dec 2011, 06:04:25

OilFinder2 wrote:
rangerone314 wrote:The # of rigs they have deployed, their public touting of the sufficiency of tar sands & shale oil to meet demand & their oil production level suggest they have no spare capacity left and will be going off the cliff soon.

I wish I had a dime for every time someone predicted Saudi oil production was about to fall off a cliff. :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

Yup it'll never happen. Just like Cantarell never happened or Indonesia leaving Opec. And I'm sure it'll never happen to Iran either, and their ONLY interest in nuclear power is weapons.
An ideology is by definition not a search for TRUTH-but a search for PROOF that its point of view is right

Equals barter and negotiate-people with power just take

You cant defend freedom by eliminating it-unknown

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Re: THE Saudi Arabian Oil Co. (ARAMCO) pt 2 (merged)

Unread postby rshizzle » Mon 26 Dec 2011, 10:10:46

Cantarell provides a good lesson actually. With all the new technology, we aren't getting MORE oil, we're just getting what we can faster. If Ghawar has a decline rate similar to Cantarell, there'll be some much more interesting times ahead.
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Re: THE Saudi Arabian Oil Co. (ARAMCO) pt 2 (merged)

Unread postby ObiWan » Mon 26 Dec 2011, 10:22:40

rshizzle wrote:Cantarell provides a good lesson actually. With all the new technology, we aren't getting MORE oil, we're just getting what we can faster. If Ghawar has a decline rate similar to Cantarell, there'll be some much more interesting times ahead.


We are getting more oil. Ghawar was only supposed to be capable of producing 60 billion barrels. It has already produced that, and therefore should already be dead and gone, a field condemned to the dustbin of history. But that isn't what happened, and every barrel it produced yesterday, today and tomorrow is extra oil which wasn't supposed to happen. But did. And does. Cantarell is the same. It should be dead and gone as well. Who knows what will happen next, certainly not those who think that recoverable oil in the ground is some static answer instead of a continuum, changing through time.
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Re: THE Saudi Arabian Oil Co. (ARAMCO) pt 2 (merged)

Unread postby eXpat » Mon 26 Dec 2011, 11:33:13

ObiWan wrote:We are getting more oil. Ghawar was only supposed to be capable of producing 60 billion barrels. It has already produced that, and therefore should already be dead and gone, a field condemned to the dustbin of history. But that isn't what happened, and every barrel it produced yesterday, today and tomorrow is extra oil which wasn't supposed to happen. But did. And does. Cantarell is the same. It should be dead and gone as well.

So they will keep going in aeternum. Good. Impeccable logic shorty.
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Re: THE Saudi Arabian Oil Co. (ARAMCO) pt 2 (merged)

Unread postby kildred590 » Tue 03 Jan 2012, 21:22:38

The real price of crude was higher during the late 70's/early 80's. During a crap economy. Plus we had shortages and rationing, which we don't have now. And production is higher now than it was then, plus we are in the process of reversing US production rates as Oilfinder2 has pointed out previously. Over at TOD some of the industry guys are making cash hand over fist. I recommend finding a job in the oil patch, allowing regular people to then laugh at those who think retail jobs are worth spit.


No, the real price was equivalent to $100 bbl in the OPEC oil crisis, which triggered hyperinflation and led to the economic decline.

SE Asia was mostly jungle, the middle east was very sparsely populated, half of Europe was locked behind the Iron Curtain, and China was still recovering from the Cultural Revolution.

USA was almost self sufficient in oil, and is now the biggest importer. The UK was one of the world's biggest oil exporters.
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Re: THE Saudi Arabian Oil Co. (ARAMCO) pt 2 (merged)

Unread postby OilFinder2 » Wed 18 Jan 2012, 22:52:31

Saudi Arabia’s November Oil Output, Exports Rise to 30-Year High
Saudi Arabia, OPEC’s largest crude producer, increased output and exports in November to the highest levels in more than 30 years, according to the Joint Organization Data Initiative.

The country pumped 10.047 million barrels a day of crude, up from 9.36 million in October, statistics posted today on JODI’s website show. The kingdom’s exports increased by 721,000 barrels a day, more than 10 percent, to 7.8 million barrels a day, according to the figures, which include condensates and exclude natural-gas liquids.

[...]
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