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Roads Post Peak

General discussions of the systemic, societal and civilisational effects of depletion.

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Re: Roads Post Peak

Unread postby careinke » Thu 22 Dec 2011, 17:08:49

In some places, roads were maintained by conscripting all of the males who lived along the route to work on the road. So, basically if road work needed to be done within a mile or so of your house, you were expected to provide the labor to keep it maintained. Of course it was scheduled around harvests and other work that needed to be done.
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Re: Roads Post Peak

Unread postby Lore » Thu 22 Dec 2011, 17:55:25

careinke wrote:In some places, roads were maintained by conscripting all of the males who lived along the route to work on the road. So, basically if road work needed to be done within a mile or so of your house, you were expected to provide the labor to keep it maintained. Of course it was scheduled around harvests and other work that needed to be done.


I wouldn't have a problem with that. I could do a damn site better then my county road commission. Being the true capitilist I am, maybe I could set up a toll?
The things that will destroy America are prosperity-at-any-price, peace-at-any-price, safety-first instead of duty-first, the love of soft living, and the get-rich-quick theory of life.
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Re: Roads Post Peak

Unread postby sparky » Thu 22 Dec 2011, 18:39:28

.
I't hardly capitalism , the feudal lords has labor rights over the tenants
usually about 40 days a year , it was some kind of tax in kind
it was used for working the lords lands , building forts and clearing the roads
pretty much in this order
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Re: Roads Post Peak

Unread postby Lore » Thu 22 Dec 2011, 18:50:52

But I have no feudal lords,... I sense another opportunity!
The things that will destroy America are prosperity-at-any-price, peace-at-any-price, safety-first instead of duty-first, the love of soft living, and the get-rich-quick theory of life.
... Theodore Roosevelt
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Re: Roads Post Peak

Unread postby vtsnowedin » Thu 22 Dec 2011, 20:38:22

sparky wrote:.
I't hardly capitalism , the feudal lords has labor rights over the tenants
usually about 40 days a year , it was some kind of tax in kind
it was used for working the lords lands , building forts and clearing the roads
pretty much in this order

But after feudalism was passe the need was still there. In post revolution Vermont the town meeting elected a road commissioner and he worked the roads with land owners and their families and crediting their labor against the property taxes that had been voted. A farmer would get a dollar a day and if he brought a team of horses they would make a additional dollar and a half and a boy with a hoe or shovel fifty cents. A man with a team and a couple of sons old enough to be counted as men could pay his taxes with a couple of weeks work between planting and harvest. Of course everyone wanted the road to their place worked on first and the debates about what road to fix each year were sometimes quite lively.
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Re: Roads Post Peak

Unread postby sparky » Fri 23 Dec 2011, 20:24:58

.
Indeed , road maintenance was for a long time a local concern .
it could be the local big man or the local council ,
that's a distinction without a difference in my mind
As far as I know ,after the Roman Empire ,
the first case of the central government taking some interest in road
was in Victoria Britain during the great potato famine of the 1840ies

Welfare on demand was unthinkable especially to those shifty Irish
then so someone in Whitehall got a scheme going eventually ,
people would work on the roads and get paid a dole
It didn't stop a million or so to starve , but it gave Ireland some fine roads
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Re: Roads Post Peak

Unread postby The Practician » Fri 23 Dec 2011, 21:03:58

Lore wrote:
In an imaginary post apocalyptic world bicycles will have a place, but I doubt very much if you're going to be able to find parts to fix a Shimano derailleur.


:lol: Trust me, Apocalypse or not, there will be plenty. (and if we run out we can always switch to Campy)
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Re: Roads Post Peak

Unread postby dorlomin » Fri 23 Dec 2011, 21:39:46

The Practician wrote:
Lore wrote:
In an imaginary post apocalyptic world bicycles will have a place, but I doubt very much if you're going to be able to find parts to fix a Shimano derailleur.


:lol: Trust me, Apocalypse or not, there will be plenty. (and if we run out we can always switch to Campy)
Now you have the basic shape and the more advanced knowledge of steel, you can ask almost any blacksmith to produce bike parts. The shape can be used to make a mold and the quality of steel dependent on the craftsman.

The cheapness of modern parts comes from their high volume, but the basics of a bike are not going to be lost. The knowledge of materials was not their but the craft skill is visible in bronze age craftmanship. By 1900 Parsons were turning out turbines with tollerances of 1/1000th of an inch, that is several orders of magnitude beyond what is necessary for a bike. So we would need to go way beyond the late 19th century of technology to no longer be able to produce a decent shifter (discounting fixies).
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Re: Roads Post Peak

Unread postby Lore » Fri 23 Dec 2011, 23:13:42

dorlomin wrote:
The Practician wrote:
Lore wrote:
In an imaginary post apocalyptic world bicycles will have a place, but I doubt very much if you're going to be able to find parts to fix a Shimano derailleur.


:lol: Trust me, Apocalypse or not, there will be plenty. (and if we run out we can always switch to Campy)
Now you have the basic shape and the more advanced knowledge of steel, you can ask almost any blacksmith to produce bike parts. The shape can be used to make a mold and the quality of steel dependent on the craftsman.

The cheapness of modern parts comes from their high volume, but the basics of a bike are not going to be lost. The knowledge of materials was not their but the craft skill is visible in bronze age craftmanship. By 1900 Parsons were turning out turbines with tollerances of 1/1000th of an inch, that is several orders of magnitude beyond what is necessary for a bike. So we would need to go way beyond the late 19th century of technology to no longer be able to produce a decent shifter (discounting fixies).


There would certainly be enough to scavenge off the old bones for many years to come as you busy yourself prying dead fingers off of rusty handlebars.

One of the things though about modern societies is that the knowledge of doing things is held in very few hands. Also, that knowledge is usually fragmented across many individuals and is critically dependent on current technologies which are themselves vulnerable to mass systematic failure of specialized components that are often sourced halfway around the planet.

While engineering, manufacturing and assembling a modern metal bicycle might at first seem like a rather simple enterprise; I couldn't imagine any one person right off hand that could accomplish the task. Specially if they were handicapped in primitive conditions.
The things that will destroy America are prosperity-at-any-price, peace-at-any-price, safety-first instead of duty-first, the love of soft living, and the get-rich-quick theory of life.
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Re: Roads Post Peak

Unread postby dolanbaker » Sat 24 Dec 2011, 08:47:57

Don't underestimate the abilities of people to "reinvent the wheel" if necessary, the end product will not be anywhere as sophisticated as the current production models but will be functional and build-able.

As for roads, well they'll be around for centuries but motorways & bypasses would mostly be abandoned due to the reduced horizon of most travellers.
Ronald Coase, Nobel Economic Sciences, said in 1991 “If we torture the data long enough, it will confess.”
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Re: Roads Post Peak

Unread postby dorlomin » Sat 24 Dec 2011, 09:20:55

Lore wrote:While engineering, manufacturing and assembling a modern metal bicycle might at first seem like a rather simple enterprise; I couldn't imagine any one person right off hand that could accomplish the task.

Well thats you and your imagination. I have known dozens of fitters who could do the job, certainly up to the standards of a basic frame (not hollow). The biggest issue in terms of metal would be drawing the wire for cables, but that is an art that has been around for well over a century.

FWIW a mate of mine made his own bike frame from bamboo.
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God alone knows what kind of world people are imagining where you cant get a decent lathe set up.
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Re: Roads Post Peak

Unread postby Lore » Sat 24 Dec 2011, 21:45:50

A frame does not a bicycle make. You only have to imagine a world with no or limited electrical service to get the idea.
The things that will destroy America are prosperity-at-any-price, peace-at-any-price, safety-first instead of duty-first, the love of soft living, and the get-rich-quick theory of life.
... Theodore Roosevelt
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Re: Roads Post Peak

Unread postby dorlomin » Sat 24 Dec 2011, 22:08:37

Lore wrote:A frame does not a bicycle make.
Duh. :roll:

You only have to imagine a world with no or limited electrical service to get the idea.
Even then you are wrong.

PO.com is full of people who know what cannot be done, but have never spent any time in a workshop surrounded by competant fitters.

But they are certain they are right. I guess they have a better imagination than me.
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Re: Roads Post Peak

Unread postby Lore » Sat 24 Dec 2011, 23:01:51

dorlomin wrote:
Lore wrote:A frame does not a bicycle make.
Duh. :roll:

You only have to imagine a world with no or limited electrical service to get the idea.
Even then you are wrong.

PO.com is full of people who know what cannot be done, but have never spent any time in a workshop surrounded by competant fitters.

But they are certain they are right. I guess they have a better imagination than me.


Excuse me, I personally know many, it's been my life's career, most all of them could not function outside of their present experience.
The things that will destroy America are prosperity-at-any-price, peace-at-any-price, safety-first instead of duty-first, the love of soft living, and the get-rich-quick theory of life.
... Theodore Roosevelt
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Re: Roads Post Peak

Unread postby Beery » Tue 27 Dec 2011, 10:40:40

The bicycle was invented in the 1860s. The world of the 1860s did not have widely available cheap energy, electricity or mass production: it was a world powered by coal or wood. But it was an industrial era: the city of London had a population of 3 million. Anyone who thinks a post-oil world will regress to a pre-industrial state is fooling himself.

Besides, we do not need even 19th Century equipment to build a bicycle:

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Re: Roads Post Peak

Unread postby Lore » Tue 27 Dec 2011, 11:57:08

Had an opportunity to see the movie "War Horse" the other day. Pretty good flick by the way. I'd love to see a calvery charge across open ground on bicycles.
The things that will destroy America are prosperity-at-any-price, peace-at-any-price, safety-first instead of duty-first, the love of soft living, and the get-rich-quick theory of life.
... Theodore Roosevelt
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Re: Roads Post Peak

Unread postby dolanbaker » Tue 27 Dec 2011, 15:09:05

Interesting to see that this thread has changed from "post peak" as in having less fuel than is available now, to "post fuel" like in no fuel at all, otherwise why would only bicycles be discussed!

Post peak to me simply means less traffic, more public transport, small engined cars and far fewer SUV types.
Ronald Coase, Nobel Economic Sciences, said in 1991 “If we torture the data long enough, it will confess.”
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Re: Roads Post Peak

Unread postby ObiWan » Tue 27 Dec 2011, 16:06:55

dolanbaker wrote:Post peak to me simply means less traffic, more public transport, small engined cars and far fewer SUV types.


Peak oil happened in 2005.

It would be nice if it did mean less oil, and less traffic.

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Re: Roads Post Peak

Unread postby dolanbaker » Tue 27 Dec 2011, 18:21:17

ObiWan wrote:
dolanbaker wrote:Post peak to me simply means less traffic, more public transport, small engined cars and far fewer SUV types.


Peak oil happened in 2005.

It would be nice if it did mean less oil, and less traffic.

Image

It does, just the drop in traffic volume is still above congestion rates in many places and getting worse in the BRICS nations because they are growing at the expense of the OECD countries who are reducing their consumption. A few more Percent in the drop in oil supply and the affects will become VERY noticeable when the peak time congestion all but disappears from many of the current "pinch points".
Ronald Coase, Nobel Economic Sciences, said in 1991 “If we torture the data long enough, it will confess.”
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Re: Roads Post Peak

Unread postby ObiWan » Tue 27 Dec 2011, 18:27:32

dolanbaker wrote: A few more Percent in the drop in oil supply and the affects will become VERY noticeable when the peak time congestion all but disappears from many of the current "pinch points".


The sooner we see these peak oil effects, the better. Surely less congestion and travel will also affect the roads, they will require less maintenance and upkeep, maybe bicycles can get a fair shake in terms of the lane access they are given (and people will stop running the poor buggers over) and subsidies will head in that direction instead of buy this car, buy that car advertisements we are bombarded with so often.
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