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The Post Peak Habitat / Doomstead pt 2 (merged)

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Re: Doomstead possibilities

Unread postby Revi » Wed 30 Nov 2011, 13:47:52

I agree with Autonomous. I have several pieces of property I have been working on for the past 20 years or so. I have come to the conclusion that there are ways of making a doomstead like property work. I have come to believe in limiting access, building bulletproof walls and limiting the exposure from the street. Here is a good place to look for property in Maine:

http://www.tcreal.com/search/
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Re: Doomstead possibilities

Unread postby Pops » Wed 30 Nov 2011, 15:25:18

Very good auto.

Nice grain bin.
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Re: Doomstead possibilities

Unread postby Revi » Sat 03 Dec 2011, 02:05:30

The way things are going it might not be a bad bet to have a place to run to. The world is getting crazier every day, and even if it doesn't go Mad Max it is nice to have a place to go to. I love the grain silo retreat Autonomous! Solar panels are amazing things. I think they may be one of those things to find in the next couple of years.
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Re: Doomstead possibilities

Unread postby Margarethe » Sun 04 Dec 2011, 09:06:09

It looks...homey!
I would want to live there, doomstead or no doomstead.
Nice shot of the place =)
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Re: Doomstead possibilities

Unread postby Pops » Sun 04 Dec 2011, 11:37:29

If a doomstead is a place to run to instead of a place to "live" I'm ambivalent. To be honest I've never like the term because instead of building a resilient lifestyle it implies that a person can simply stoke the remote bunker, continue on with BAU until the birdie keels then retreat to the undisclosed location and wait 'til the sheep all die.

I guess any plan B is better than none but a plan B that requires you to abandon everything you've worked for and built and grown accustom to in order to go off and live in a tent forever really doesn't seem realistic.

IOW, better to put in effort and resources to make a better, more resilient, livable plan A that addresses the most probable outcomes.


ETA: Not to say the livable plan A can't be a remote cabin.
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Re: Doomstead possibilities

Unread postby vtsnowedin » Sun 04 Dec 2011, 22:31:07

Pops wrote:If a doomstead is a place to run to instead of a place to "live" I'm ambivalent. To be honest I've never like the term because instead of building a resilient lifestyle it implies that a person can simply stoke the remote bunker, continue on with BAU until the birdie keels then retreat to the undisclosed location and wait 'til the sheep all die.

I guess any plan B is better than none but a plan B that requires you to abandon everything you've worked for and built and grown accustom to in order to go off and live in a tent forever really doesn't seem realistic.

IOW, better to put in effort and resources to make a better, more resilient, livable plan A that addresses the most probable outcomes.


ETA: Not to say the livable plan A can't be a remote cabin.

The trouble is that in Plan A you and I have almost no influence over the actions of the Congress or the Federal reserve, or the UN or NATO or The Peoples Republic of China or OPEC or The central bank of the Euro Zone (If there is one). Etc. A well stocked Doomstead is just a backup plan in case one of these entities F@#*s up in a big way ,and while not guaranteeing that you will survive and prosper, come what may, it will at least give you and yours a chance to not be the first to die due to the collapse of the supply chain we now receive all our consumables from.
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Re: Doomstead possibilities

Unread postby Outcast_Searcher » Mon 05 Dec 2011, 00:16:23

autonomous wrote:I have been collecting properties over the years and have developed several into what may be referred to here as a "doomstead". But I prefer to call it an "economic shelter" or "settlement" instead.

...

Here are the characteristics of my "economic shelters":

* Property is located within 15 miles or less of a small town or city.
* No building permits or other interaction with government entities occur during development of settlement.

Kudos to you. Nice plan, and the example shown looks like great results.

Dumb question, based on my brother-in-law's results with building a log home on his farm:

How do you get away without permits or interaction with govt. entities AND live within 15 miles of a town or small city?

Do you just take the chance and ignore them? Do you live in a place with very little regulation? Do you know someone in city hall?

The reason I ask is there are SO many regulations now. Even building a septic system can have all kinds of implications for soil content, etc. Electrical, foundations, plumbing, etc. very often require permits.

Just asking -- I didn't think the system would let you (legally) get around dealing with our governmental masters, er - I mean entities).
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Re: Doomstead possibilities

Unread postby autonomous » Mon 05 Dec 2011, 15:03:52

Outcast_Searcher wrote:
autonomous wrote:I have been collecting properties over the years and have developed several into what may be referred to here as a "doomstead". But I prefer to call it an "economic shelter" or "settlement" instead.

...

Here are the characteristics of my "economic shelters":

* Property is located within 15 miles or less of a small town or city.
* No building permits or other interaction with government entities occur during development of settlement.

Kudos to you. Nice plan, and the example shown looks like great results.

Dumb question, based on my brother-in-law's results with building a log home on his farm:

How do you get away without permits or interaction with govt. entities AND live within 15 miles of a town or small city?

Do you just take the chance and ignore them? Do you live in a place with very little regulation? Do you know someone in city hall?

The reason I ask is there are SO many regulations now. Even building a septic system can have all kinds of implications for soil content, etc. Electrical, foundations, plumbing, etc. very often require permits.

Just asking -- I didn't think the system would let you (legally) get around dealing with our governmental masters, er - I mean entities).


I just completed a build of a nice little cabin nestled among oak trees in a ravine not more than 15 miles away from a major city. In the hills above the property are large multi-million dollar homes. The property was a rare find and I paid more than I normally do for it, but still paid with cash. The cabin is not visible from the neighbors homes nor is it visible from the street. Officially, the property is a "garden" and the cabin is a "pergola". Most areas do not require permits for pergolas, and the codes defer the definition of a pergola to Webster's dictionary, as follows:

Pergola: A structure usually consisting of parallel colonnades supporting an open roof of girders and cross rafters.


Note that there is no mention of size, shape or materials. You can also have a fabric covering for a pergola without needing a permit. In this case I used a temper tent system for the colonnades, girders and cross rafters and the standard temper tent materials for the fabric covering.

In most areas you can build sheds up to 120 square feet without needing a permit, place water tanks on the ground, build fences, gates and walls up to 3 feet high and so on. My settlements are constructed mostly from items that do not legally require permits. However, there are items I install that do require a permit and these are portable and can be easily removed or hidden away if needed. I use a small portable dc solar electric system. Instead of a costly septic system I use an inexpensive and somewhat primitive compost toilet system. The plumbing is kept to a minimum, namely a kitchen sink and shower.

Even if the building inspectors were to illegally enter my property, I would have an explanation for everything which they may challenge of course. But there is no reason for them to be there. A surprising amount of non-permitted construction takes place in both rural and suburban areas. Since most of the permit issues originate from complaints by neighbors I keep a low profile and get to know the neighbors. Many of neighbors have non-permitted structures and don't want the building inspectors around either. During construction I keep noise levels to a minimum through various methods, by using screws instead of nails, design to dimensional lumber sizes to keep cutting to a minimum.

In rural areas most of these precautions are not necessary if you select an appropriate location. As the saying goes "Heaven is high, and the emperor is far away."
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Re: Doomstead possibilities

Unread postby Serial_Worrier » Mon 05 Dec 2011, 17:23:46

What makes you think that the TPTB will not hunt down every single doomstead?
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Re: Doomstead possibilities

Unread postby Newfie » Mon 05 Dec 2011, 22:29:57

autonomous wrote:I just completed a build of a nice little cabin nestled among oak trees in a ravine not more than 15 miles away from a major city.


I live in a 'major city.' 15 miles from here and you are still within city limits.

I know lots of folks who dislike Philadelphia because it is so "quaint," "countrified," "small," "dull," "unexciting," or even "empty" compared to the Big Apple.

Some consider Philadelphia a 'bedroom community' to NYC.

Any place as small as you describe is a 'hamlet' out here.

Our boat is 45 miles away, at the first decent country place we could find. That place is an oasis surrounded by suburban sprawl and McMansions, it just has not taken over the town proper....yet. That takes an honest hour.

Tomorrow I am driving 5 hours to my hunting cabin. Perhaps a bit obsessive, but even there suburban sprawl is rearing it's head. You can always tell when the horses move in it is getting 'gentrified.'
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Re: Doomstead possibilities

Unread postby autonomous » Tue 06 Dec 2011, 00:01:16

I agree it is hard to find anything cheap or suitable near Philadelphia or much of the east coast. In addition to looking for cheap land located much further west of you, I am looking at houses in an area stretching between Cleveland to Memphis. Some homes are selling for below $1000, on 1/4 or 1/2 acre lots. These are small homes built around the 1900's in fair to poor condition. I can't say much about the locations of these homes except that they are in perpetually depressed areas of the US. I haven't bought anything there yet, I was thinking dismantling one of these homes and hauling off the materials.

Newfie wrote:Any place as small as you describe is a 'hamlet' out here.


Shakespeare wrote:Hamlet (1.1)
"In the most high and palmy state of Rome,
A little ere the mightiest Julius fell,
The graves stood tenantless, and the sheeted dead
Did squeak and gibber in the Roman streets.

As stars with trains of fire and dews of blood,
Disasters in the sun; and the moist star
Upon whose influence Neptune's empire stands
Was sick almost to Doomsday with eclipse."


Yeah, let's call it a "hamlet" instead. Serial worrier has made me paranoid but it will pass.
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Re: Doomstead possibilities

Unread postby patience » Wed 07 Dec 2011, 18:04:09

thuja said,
"Unless you are about to retire or are independently wealthy, you will need to work. Commuting to work from a rural cabin in an era of increasingly expensive (and perhaps rationed and scarce) fuel seems pretty nonsensical to me. Could you doomsteady folks please set forth a cogent argument about why a doomstead is a good idea?"

Yes, most folks need to work, even those of us who are obstensibly "retired" for as long as SS lasts. There are many ways to work, however, that do not include commuting to a cubicle in some big box in a city. In our case, we have a machine shop/welding shop at home. I go downstairs to the walkout basement and I'm at work, or I was until I closed the shop last Fall. If/when Social Security goes the way of the Dodo bird, then I will reopen the shop, call the neighbors, put the sign back up, and I'll be back at work. (They continue to harass me to do that.) Other folks work at home, like Pops, or nearby. But living does require an income of some sort.

Another way to avoid the long commute from remote doomstead is to find a job to make a living in the local area. I have posted many times on the desirability of integrating yourself into your homestead/doomstead community. By working in the local area, you can assure that you will get to be a part of it.

In general, I don't like the "bugout" concept. It fails in many ways, not the least of which is how to make a living in such situation. Most of us can only afford to finance ONE complete life, and the bugout concept usually does not include what I would call a complete life (in terms of job, friends, role in the area) in the secondary location.

With all that said, we are sort of starting to do this anyway! I recently bought an old, but very good 29 ft. RV trailer that we plan to restore completely and augment heavily, then move it to our daughter's property. There, it will function as a place to get the heck out of the way in case of civil disturbance, or, later on, become our version of an old folks' home for when we get too old to handle our present place. (Wife and I are both 65 now.) I am fully aware of the inherent dangers of leaving our present property unattended in case of societal breakdown, however, I would rather be out of the way--and LIVE through it.

Actually, our current residence is our "doomstead". It is only one acre in a very rural community, 5 miles from the county seat of 6,400 souls. Here, we can provide our own water, most of our food, have wood heat, and ply my trade as necessary to make ends meet.

For those who may question the idea of moving out of the city, here is some reaidng material:
http://www.shtfplan.com/emergency-prepa ... s_12062011
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Re: Doomstead possibilities

Unread postby Revi » Wed 07 Dec 2011, 22:18:31

Here's a bit from the article. It was about a guy who lived through the shelling of a city in Bosnia.

"Based on you and your family’s experience, which would you prefer and why?

Selco: RUN! If you lucky yes, city might be better off but if not it is so much worse. Bug in for a few days until first madness settled and then bug out. Also depends on the weather. Might stay at home in winter and risk getting robbed / murdered instead of going out and freezing to death. Only run if you know where you run to."

That's why I believe in a bug out place. We have a place and live there in the summer. It would be a drag to have to live there full time, but it beats the alternative of living in a very unsafe town.

I lived in Central America in the 80's, and saw what it gets like when things fall apart. Where there is no security things get dicey quickly. The town I lived in had armed men at the entrances, so it was safe, but a lot of people were killed nearby. We are going to have to get to safe places quickly if it gets nasty. Having some kind of doomstead or bug out may mean the difference between life and death.
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Re: Doomstead possibilities

Unread postby patience » Thu 08 Dec 2011, 21:03:12

Revi,

Yes, a friend of mine had relatives who lived and worked in El Salvador back then. They were in an upscale area, and still had to leave the country. It can get unbelievably hairy when the rule of law breaks down.
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Re: Doomstead possibilities

Unread postby Loki » Thu 08 Dec 2011, 21:53:54

patience wrote:For those who may question the idea of moving out of the city, here is some reaidng material:
http://www.shtfplan.com/emergency-prepa ... s_12062011

Hi Patience, good to see you again, seems you've been missing lately, hope all is well.

I found that Bosnian guy's original thread super interesting, thanks for the follow up. But the situation he's describing is a nasty civil/ethnic war. I just don't see anything approaching this level of disruption in the US any time in the near future, barring a global-scale natural disaster (meteor, etc.).

I read all the replies in that blog post, mostly from Americans. Almost no one was detailing the scenario in which they'd have to "bug out" to the country. Everyone seemed to have some implicit notion as to what SHTF would look like, and it apparently involves rapid, near permanent decline to Mad Max. But no one apparently had any idea what would precipitate this decline.

I've been reading survivalist stuff for a decade now, this is a pretty typical mindset. But it strikes me that it's obsolete thinking. I believe this kind of stuff originated during the Cold War, when global thermonuclear war was a distinct possibility. I grew up at the end of the Cold War, I remember it (the movie The Day After in particular scared the crap out of me when I was a kid).

But the "collapse" we're facing now, at least here in the US, appears to be a long-term, kinda slowish economic decline. This is a situation that requires a very different response than the old-school survivalist "bugging out" solution.

I've learned a lot from survivalists over the years, but I think their focus on BOL, BOB, BOV, SHTF, TEOTWAWKI, and guns, guns, guns is not particularly useful . The "doomstead" is just another word for "bug out location," and just as wrong-headed. Bugging out only makes sense in the context of natural disasters, which are mostly short term affairs.

That said, I do have a bug-out bag (my camping pack), lots of gun toys (fun hobby), a bug-out vehicle of sorts (dual-sport motorcycle), and I've already "bugged out" to the country to work/live on a small commercial farm. So maybe I'm a survivalist doomer at heart after all.....:)
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Re: Doomstead possibilities

Unread postby rangerone314 » Mon 12 Dec 2011, 19:28:13

Serial_Worrier wrote:What makes you think that the TPTB will not hunt down every single doomstead?

To what end? Even Hitler didn't invade Switzerland. Small, neutral, well-armed, and with little worth taking.

They can fly their drones overhead (if they still can maintain them) and see the non-rows of corn growing amidst turnips and sweet potatoes, and jujube and hazelnut and blackberry hedges, and a bunch of trees.

It will look like a chaotic jumble. Much woods out where I am too, and the road will be bounded by rose thickets and evergreens.

Might have a few deadly nightshade plants along the outeredge of the doomstead to function as "flypaper". Best I can do since you can't grow a manchineel tree here.
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Re: The Post Peak Habitat / Doomstead pt 2 (merged)

Unread postby Newfie » Mon 12 Dec 2011, 20:26:25

Loki,
I'm with you to a large extent, I think. The danger I fear the most is economic collapse. I can't foretell the speed, could be slow or amazingly fast. Ran into a Wharton PhD economist at the bar the other day, he seemed to be betting on a quick collapse but could not tell how complete he thought it would be.

Since I live in a large city center I worry about my particular situation. What I fear is a general falling apart of the civil/social support mechanism leaving huge blocks of folks underfed. They get upset and start looting to feed themselves. There are very few food stores in their neighborhoods so they move out into the doughnut to get food. The are organized by neighborhood gangs, which exist as a kind of local government now.

The local police can't control the situation, eventually even NG can't handle it and large portions of the cities are more or less abandoned. Perhaps eventually they even turn off power and water to certain quarters.

Then things really start to get nasty.

Best not to be around for that.
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Re: The Post Peak Habitat / Doomstead pt 2 (merged)

Unread postby Revi » Wed 14 Dec 2011, 22:29:12

Economically it makes sense to have a place to go to if you don't have the money to keep up your present lifestyle. I just saw a bit on the news about Slab City in California. It's a large encampment out in the desert. A lot of people there came from the cities where they had a job and a life. They don't have to pay for rent so they can live out in the desert. We may all need some kind of Slab City where we can live on almost no cash income.
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Re: The Post Peak Habitat / Doomstead pt 2 (merged)

Unread postby Lore » Wed 14 Dec 2011, 22:39:35

Revi wrote:Economically it makes sense to have a place to go to if you don't have the money to keep up your present lifestyle. I just saw a bit on the news about Slab City in California. It's a large encampment out in the desert. A lot of people there came from the cities where they had a job and a life. They don't have to pay for rent so they can live out in the desert. We may all need some kind of Slab City where we can live on almost no cash income.


I believe what you're referring to are the Hoovervilles of some 80 years ago. No choice refugee shelter.
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Re: The Post Peak Habitat / Doomstead pt 2 (merged)

Unread postby Revi » Thu 15 Dec 2011, 10:27:10

No, it is not a choice refugee shelter. It is plagued by drugs and violence, just like the Hoovervilles of the depression.

Image

I think there will be a lot of Slab Cities, but most of them won't have the balmy climate of Slab City in the winter. They will be miserable squatter camps outside of every town. I would rather live in some kind of a gated trailer park, but for a lot of people there won't be that choice. Did you know that they are putting people in debtor's prison for unpaid medical bills now?
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