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THE Fracking Thread (merged)

Discussions of conventional and alternative energy production technologies.

Re: EROEI on New Natural Gas from Shale, or Fracking Technol

Unread postby shortonoil » Tue 08 Nov 2011, 12:53:40

kublikhan quoted:

The estimated total energy cost of shale gas extraction is thus in the approximate range of 30 to 35 billion Btu while the estimated ultimate energy produced is in the range of 2.6 trillion to nearly 5 trillion Btu.

If we use World Gross Energy Production (EIA) divided by World GDP (World Bank) to get BTU/$, it calculates to 6,656 BTU/$ for 2011. Dividing this figure into 35 billion BTU produces $5.26 million per year (I assume per year) total expenditures on shale gas production. This assumes that shale gas production is no more energy intensive than, let's say, growing a bushel of corn or writing an insurance policy. Obviously, this analyst has misplaced a few decimal points in their calculation!

Although ERoEI can be a very powerful tool for the analysis of energy production and depletion, its determination is rarely accurate. A plethora of such quotes can be found in the MSM and on the Internet; they vary from the reasonable to the absurd. This distribution is weighted heavily towards the later.

When reviewing such projections it might be advisable to keep in mind that the commentator is highly likely to be either incompetent, biased or wrong.
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Re: EROEI on New Natural Gas from Shale, or Fracking Technol

Unread postby kublikhan » Wed 09 Nov 2011, 14:34:35

As several posters, including myself, mentioned in that thread. 4 pages of arguing back and forth over there :)
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Re: THE Fracking Thread (merged)

Unread postby JRP3 » Fri 11 Nov 2011, 08:39:36

Fracking chemicals in drinking water. Just a coincidence I'm sure.
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/45246260/ns/us_news-environment/#.Tr0ckfKB0Ys

A pair of environmental monitoring wells drilled deep into an aquifer in Pavillion, Wyo., contain high levels of cancer-causing compounds and at least one chemical commonly used in hydraulic fracturing, according to new water test results released yesterday by the Environmental Protection Agency.
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Re: THE Fracking Thread (merged)

Unread postby ColossalContrarian » Fri 11 Nov 2011, 09:45:26

I haven't read through the entire thread but in case anyone missed this on Zerohedge the other day...

Guest Post: U.S. Government Confirms Link Between Earthquakes and Hydraulic Fracturing

http://www.zerohedge.com/news/guest-post-us-government-confirms-link-between-earthquakes-and-hydraulic-fracturing

The cause was injection of fluids into deep wells for waste disposal and secondary recovery of oil, and the use of reservoirs for water supplies. Most of these earthquakes were minor. The largest and most widely known resulted from fluid injection at the Rocky Mountain Arsenal near Denver, Colorado. In 1967, an earthquake of magnitude 5.5 followed a series of smaller earthquakes. Injection had been discontinued at the site in the previous year once the link between the fluid injection and the earlier series of earthquakes was established.”
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Re: THE Fracking Thread (merged)

Unread postby basil_hayden » Fri 11 Nov 2011, 10:17:41

http://michiganmessenger.com/53926/epa-finds-fracking-chemicals-in-wyoming-groundwater

I'll try to research the depth on this fracking as this is the so-called smoking gun.
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Re: THE Fracking Thread (merged)

Unread postby Bruce_S » Fri 11 Nov 2011, 10:50:28

The referenced article:

"While the EPA has not claimed certainty that the contamination came from fracking at this point, the presence of 2-Butoxyethanol (2-BE), a chemical used in fracking, and the lack of contamination with nitrates and fertilizers that would indicate an agricultural source, suggest a link."

Apparently, the EPA isn't willing to draw quite the same conclusion you are at this point. But notice the wonderful innuendo in the article.
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Re: THE Fracking Thread (merged)

Unread postby careinke » Fri 11 Nov 2011, 11:57:30

Does anyone know if there is fracking going on by OK City? Maybe a source of the recent volconoes? (I have know idea, just asking)
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Re: THE Fracking Thread (merged)

Unread postby basil_hayden » Fri 11 Nov 2011, 14:55:22

Looks like Pavillion, Wyoming fracking depth is about 5,000 feet; Marcellus shale is about 3,000 feet.

This might be to shallow if the aquifer above the fracked area needs to be preserved.

Contrast this with the Bakken where the average fracking depth is 9-10,000 feet and no compaints (yet).
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Re: THE Fracking Thread (merged)

Unread postby basil_hayden » Fri 11 Nov 2011, 14:57:31

careinke wrote:Does anyone know if there is fracking going on by OK City? Maybe a source of the recent volconoes? (I have know idea, just asking)


2-BE is the least of our worries, wait until the LAVA surfaces! :-D

(You meant earthquakes, right?)
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Re: THE Fracking Thread (merged)

Unread postby careinke » Fri 11 Nov 2011, 15:02:16

basil_hayden wrote:
careinke wrote:Does anyone know if there is fracking going on by OK City? Maybe a source of the recent volconoes? (I have know idea, just asking)


2-BE is the least of our worries, wait until the LAVA surfaces! :-D

(You meant earthquakes, right?)


DUH! :oops: , yea I meant earthquakes. Sorry, I seem to be having my own Perry moment....
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Re: THE Fracking Thread (merged)

Unread postby basil_hayden » Fri 11 Nov 2011, 15:09:52

careinke wrote:DUH! :oops: , yea I meant earthquakes. Sorry, I seem to be having my own Perry moment....

Quite all right, you and me both. From what I've read, this part Oklahoma has earthquakes of this magnitude about every 50 years along a fault zone. Fracking/Injecting quakes are a few orders of magnitude smaller. In SE Texas, so much oil has been sucked out of the ground it has caused subsidence (i.e., sinking ground level) of several feet.
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Re: On "fracking" fairy tales

Unread postby seikialice88 » Mon 28 Nov 2011, 03:02:54

lonewolf wrote:@pstarr - then you may also 'appreciate' another surrogate identity, Dr. Doom, as seen here
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v-ZNG-tY7_Q


Such a very amazing link!

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Re: THE Fracking Thread (merged)

Unread postby Ferretlover » Sat 31 Dec 2011, 19:02:17

4.0 earthquake strikes in northeast Ohio
Associated Press updated 2 hours 43 minutes ago
The U.S. Geological Survey says the 4.0 magnitude quake struck Saturday afternoon in McDonald, outside of Youngstown.
… It was the latest in a series of minor quakes in the area in 2011, though residents say Saturday's appeared to be stronger than others. Many have struck near an injection well used to dispose of brine water that's a byproduct of oil and gas drilling.
Its owner agreed this week to stop injecting brine into the earth while the quakes are investigated.
MSNBC
One agitated blogger’s esponse to the news item:
11 quakes in a previously quake free area within a year and within a mile or two of a deep brine injection well - you would have to be a government lackey, paid for politician or gas profiteer to believe it's coincidence. Fracking and disposal of its byproducts is like a giant game of Jenga. When they make enough holes, everything falls down. Maybe it will drain the Mahoning River, thus fixing the last problem created by thoughtless exploitation of the local environment.
"Open the gates of hell!" ~Morgan Freeman's character in the movie, Olympus Has Fallen.
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Re: THE Fracking Thread (merged)

Unread postby rockdoc123 » Sat 31 Dec 2011, 20:55:52

The thought that NE Ohio is an area previously free of earthquake activity is utter nonsense.
From an article back in January 2008
Still, Ohio seems increasingly prone to the shakes; there have been 25 earthquakes of magnitude 2.0 or higher over the past two years, equal to the number the five years before that. There have been about as many such quakes in Ohio so far this decade as in the previous 30 years

“We think Ohio, especially northeast Ohio and Lake Erie, is going through a period of increased seismic activity,” said Mike Hansen, coordinator of the Ohio Seismic Network.
One explanation could be that there is better monitoring equipment than in the past. But more frequent activity is a likelihood.
Ohio State University geophysics professor Ralph Von Frese said location is the key.
“We’re the earthquake capital of the Big Ten, at least,” he said. “This is earthquake country, and Ohio is situated so that we’ve experienced more than every state around us.”
So just what is it that seems to make Ohio so … shaky?
“That’s the question everyone is interested in _ and the one we can’t answer for certain,” Hansen said.
There are, however, several theories about frequent earthquakes, including the one with the 3.1 magnitude that hit Tuesday.
Geologists say Ohio might be especially active because of a combination of a few ancient collisions.
The first was probably 800 million years ago, when land masses the size of continents came together, causing mountain ranges and fault lines.
Another factor is that movement still is going on.
“We know that North America is being gradually pushed westward,” Hansen said.
Sylvia Hayek, a seismologist with Natural Resources Canada, said the Ohio area also may be reacting to something called glacial or crustal rebound. The idea is that the Earth’s crust is still recovering or shifting from the retreat of glaciers. The weight of the glaciers depressed the crust of the Earth.
When they retreated about 12,000 years ago, they caused some instability in the Earth’s crust in Ohio, Hansen and Hayek said.


And they haven’t all been small earthquakes in the past

this from the Ohio Government Dept of Natural Resources

January 31, 1986 Northeastern Ohio Earthquake
(from Summer 1986 Ohio Geology)
On January 31, 1986, many northeastern Ohio residents were startled into the realization that this area is seismically active; historically, the region has the second highest frequency of earthquake activity of any area of the state. Only Shelby County and vicinity in western Ohio have experienced more earthquakes in historic times. The 1986 northeastern Ohio earthquake has the distinction of being the most intensively studied Ohio earthquake, the first earth quake in the state for which injuries were recorded, and the nearest earthquake to a nuclear power plant in the United States. The 1986 event ranks as probably the third largest earthquake in Ohio.

and
The historic seismic activity in northeastern Ohio, which long predates the Calhio injection well and indeed any drilling or deep mining activity in this part of the state, suggests that seismic activity in this area is not a result of human activities.

and
At least 19 earthquakes are known to have occurred in the northeastern Ohio counties of Ashtabula (1), Cuyahoga (7), Lake (4), Lorain (1), Portage (3), and Summit (3) prior to the 1986 Lake County event. Most of these earthquakes, the earliest of which occurred in 1836, predate the availability of seismographs and are therefore located and rated as to intensity on the basis of newspaper and other historic accounts. These data have recently been researched and evaluated in detail by personnel from Weston Geophysical.
These accounts suggest that most of the previous seismic activity in northeastern Ohio was of relatively low intensity and associated with only minor and isolated damages such as a few broken windows and items falling off shelves. One earthquake, which occurred on March 9, 1943, had a Richter magnitude of 4.7 and an epicentral intensity of V. No significant damages were reported from this quake, which had a felt area of 220,000 square kilometers (85,000 square miles). This event was originally assigned a location beneath Lake Erie, offshore from Ashtabula County; however, recent reevaluation of the seismic records of this event by seismologists from the U.S. Geological Survey placed the epicenter on the Lake-Geauga County line, near the epicenter of the 1986 event.


If you are interested in looking at information on Ohio historical seismicity, earthquakes etc.

http://earthquake.usgs.gov/earthquakes/states/?region=Ohio

Note that there are two time periods since modern seismic monitoring has been in place during which there were 13 recorded earthquakes above 3.0, both of which predated the drilling of shale gas wells in Ohio by 1.2 decades.

I note that the article in question doesn’t mention what the epicenter depth for the earthquakes are. The fault system which runs through NE Ohio into the Great Lakes is thought to be responsible for earthquakes in the region and generally the epicenter is several km deeper than any well, especially the shallow shale wells.

Sounds to me like the farmer quoted has been talking to a legal team bent on extracting payment from oil and gas operators to make claims (no matter how frivolous) go away.
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Fracking Blowout in Alberta

Unread postby Keith_McClary » Tue 17 Jan 2012, 11:48:40

Regulators say hydraulic fracturing may have caused oil spill on farm near Innisfail
Hydraulic fracturing of an oil well in southern Alberta could have caused an oil well blowout a kilometre away, according to provincial regulators.

Friday afternoon, a landowner in the Garrington area west of Innisfail spotted a pumpjack spewing what appeared to be oil and chemicals onto his neighbour's field.

Black fluid from the well sprayed 15 metres in the air until the man was able to alert a hydraulic fracturing crew working on a nearby well for Midway Energy.
...
"We don't know the details yet . . . but my understanding is that it appears the fracturing process affected the other well," said an ERCB spokeswoman, Cara Tobin.
...
Don Bester, president of the Alberta Surface Rights Group, is worried the accelerated rate of multi-stage hydraulic fracturing in Alberta could eventually affect water resources underground.

"We're concerned that these things are going to start damaging aquifers," said Bester, a retired petroleum engineer. "If they can hit another well, like this one here, what if they communicate and put all that frac fluid into an aquifer and destroy it."

He noted every formation has natural fractures running through them. If one in the Garrington area was crossed by fracking operations, it could have increased the pressure in Wild Stream's producing oil pool by five to 10 times.

"Fracks propagate out so far that if they hit one of these natural fracture systems, they will just follow that natural channel straight up from a high pressure zone to a low pressure zone," Bester said.
===============================================================
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Re: Fracking Blowout in Alberta

Unread postby careinke » Tue 17 Jan 2012, 13:58:40

It seems we do not understand the fracking process as well as we need to. Hopefully some major lawsuits will be filed to stop the process until we get a better handle on it.
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Re: Fracking Blowout in Alberta

Unread postby Cog » Tue 17 Jan 2012, 17:09:14

Fracking does not affect aquifers.
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Re: Fracking Blowout in Alberta

Unread postby WildRose » Tue 17 Jan 2012, 18:34:31

[quote="Cog"]Fracking does not affect aquifers.[/quote

The guy in the article seems to think it can, and he's a retired petroleum engineer.
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Re: Fracking Blowout in Alberta

Unread postby PrestonSturges » Wed 18 Jan 2012, 11:27:11

Note to Libetrtarians - the landowner is supposed to be the last bastion of individual liberty. How's that working out?
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Re: Fracking Blowout in Alberta

Unread postby careinke » Wed 18 Jan 2012, 15:28:39

PrestonSturges wrote:Note to Libetrtarians - the landowner is supposed to be the last bastion of individual liberty. How's that working out?


Well in a libertarian society, the landowner would sue the fracker and be compensated for damages, hopefully at a triple damage rate. In a socialist system, the government would fine the offender, and the landowner may or may not be compensated.

So Preston, how did the present system work out for us?????
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