THE Electric Vehicle (EV) Thread pt 3 (merged)

[Outcast_Searcher]

Plus it just ain't Amuricun to be riding around in no electrik hedge trimmer.

I drove a Chevy Volt for 30 miles yesterday. Interstate at 70 mph, amazed at how quiet the thing was, gentle cruising on city secondaries gaining me back a few miles through regenerative braking, a few impromptu drag races against whoever wanted to cut over on me from the other lane and doesn't understand that electric motors are all about torque, made sure the stereo was obnoxious enough to be a teenagers wet dream, and had another 19 miles showing of electric power when I parked it back at the dealership. Excellent front seats and quite nice interior (little too many buttons and gizmos on the center stack), little short of 6 footer room in the back seats, no spare tires (a real drag for those get flats) and the hatch volume was reasonable, but nothing special, although admittedly this is not a large automobile. No gasoline molecules were harmed during this exercise.

The engineers who built this thing did an excellent job. The future is here, and it ain't no hedge trimmer.

$42,000 and GM quality -- i.e. longevity (or not). For example, last I read, it's about $15,000 to replace the battery when it gets weak in about 5ish years. NO THANKS.

I'll take the 2012 model Toyota Camry Hybrid at $26,000, which gets 43 MPG city, and have NO range anxiety while the folks work out the whole charging station, battery reliability, etc. thing. And by the way, I'll have a real mid-sized car with a real trunk and 6 footer plus legroom in the back, and Toyota quality (which is fine by me, despite all the whining about floor mats).

[Bruce_S]

The engineers who built this thing did an excellent job. The future is here, and it ain't no hedge trimmer.

$42,000 and GM quality -- i.e. longevity (or not). For example, last I read, it's about $15,000 to replace the battery when it gets weak in about 5ish years. NO THANKS.

The battery warranty runs 8 years, 100K. GM quality, while certainly never a bastion of exceptionalism, was not visible in this auto. Something better was. Better than the Prius and Insight I test drove the week before, and as good as the Lexus CT200h the night before that. Batteries will undoubtedly not be cheap. Neither are they in the million Prii sold already. In the bad old days, it was engine/tranny. Now it is batteries. Six of one, half dozen of another. Except one requires gasoline to move you, the kids, grandma, the dog and friends of all of these to the grocery store, work, soccer practice, the light rail station, and the other does not. At least for 40-50 miles.

I'll take the 2012 model Toyota Camry Hybrid at $26,000, which gets 43 MPG city, and have NO range anxiety while the folks work out the whole charging station, battery reliability, etc. thing. And by the way, I'll have a real mid-sized car with a real trunk and 6 footer plus legroom in the back, and Toyota quality (which is fine by me, despite all the whining about floor mats).

The Volt has a gasoline engine for backup. Run the battery dead, and you have 250 miles of gasoline range to get you home, operating in the 35-40mpg range. I scheduled another test drive for next week, except this time I want a dead battery, to see how the car behaves when operating in "non range anxiety" mode.

[Outcast_Searcher]

The Volt has a gasoline engine for backup. Run the battery dead, and you have 250 miles of gasoline range to get you home, operating in the 35-40mpg range. I scheduled another test drive for next week, except this time I want a dead battery, to see how the car behaves when operating in "non range anxiety" mode.

Right you are. My bad (I knew that but forgot). Since the thread was about electric cars, my brain went off track on the Volt (which is kind of an electric car suggestive name, IMO anyway).

The thing that blows me away is that this is really, near as I can tell, just a hybrid with a big battery (unlike, say, the LEAF). Given that, the fact that it is $42,000ish before federal subsidies just BLOWS ME AWAY.

[Outcast_Searcher]

The battery warranty runs 8 years, 100K. GM quality, while certainly never a bastion of exceptionalism, was not visible in this auto. Something better was. Better than the Prius and Insight I test drove the week before, and as good as the Lexus CT200h the night before that.

Thanks for the info on the warranty, Bruce. Whenever I tried to find something specific in the "early" days before the Volt was released, GM was very nonspecific on that. GM being GM, I assumed this was because they planned to screw everybody (like they did with their POS Saturn, IMO). My bad on that wrong assumption.

Everyone I know who has a Prius or has ridden in one LOVED it. The overall quality reports in credible reviewers like Consumer Reports seem to show very good quality. Are you talking about "fit and finish" or "road feel" quality?

(I'm talking about durability and reliability quality).

Obviously you're right on the range without gasoline issue. Toyota's planned 2012 plug-in Prius is CLAIMED to be a compromise on gas free mileage and price (based on using a Lithium Ion battery and providing 13ish miles without gas -- which would be FINE for me 6-ish days a week, FWIW). We'll see on the price (I'm still skeptical). Once the new better Camry Hybrid was announced, I decided to wait on the likely quality, battery, efficiency, etc. issues to be proven for the plug-ins, since the 2010 model Prius has (IMO) proven Toyota has crossed that hurdle for ordinary hybrids.

Thanks in advance for any insight.

[Bruce_S]

The thing that blows me away is that this is really, near as I can tell, just a hybrid with a big battery (unlike, say, the LEAF). Given that, the fact that it is $42,000ish before federal subsidies just BLOWS ME AWAY.

It is quit expensive. With all federal and state subsidies, the $45G model is about $32Gs locally. A base model would be about $27Gs. It really isn't a true EV, you are right, it more resembles a hybrid with a mondo battery in it. But the guys driving these things are racking up months at a time before putting gas in. Some kind of game, like hybrid hyper-milers run amuck.

The median/mean (forget which) price of a new car nowadays is something like $30Gs. $27-$32Gs puts it right in the ballpark, particularly for those worried about which country we send our hard earned dollars to. I pay extra $$/kwh where I live for greener power, the idea of running my car from it rather than shipping money off to Mexico, Chavez or subsidizing some nasty political party in Africa is quite appealing, possible shortages and rationing in the future just being icing on the cake.

[Bruce_S]

Everyone I know who has a Prius or has ridden in one LOVED it. The overall quality reports in credible reviewers like Consumer Reports seem to show very good quality. Are you talking about "fit and finish" or "road feel" quality?

(I'm talking about durability and reliability quality).

I think Prius still owns the world when it comes to durability and quality. Also, their battery packs are cheaper to replace than Fords, for example, and certainly are cheaper than what it will cost to replace the Volt 400# battery pack. I've driven the last two generation of Prii and the Lexus version of same, the Lexus is quite nice. The problem, from a driving perspective, is that the Volt powers away from lights and accelerates like someone attached you to the worlds biggest bungee cord and it..just..won't..stop. All the squirrels stampeding around in their cages inside the Prius engine compartment are quite noticeable, and loud, by comparison. There is something eerie about the way a Volt accelerates, and quite exhilarating.

Long term quality will be a wait and see game. I would buy a Prius tomorrow and not worry about that, regardless of past floor mat escapades.

Obviously you're right on the range without gasoline issue. Toyota's planned 2012 plug-in Prius is CLAIMED to be a compromise on gas free mileage and price (based on using a Lithium Ion battery and providing 13ish miles without gas -- which would be FINE for me 6-ish days a week, FWIW). We'll see on the price (I'm still skeptical). Once the new better Camry Hybrid was announced, I decided to wait on the likely quality, battery, efficiency, etc. issues to be proven for the plug-ins, since the 2010 model Prius has (IMO) proven Toyota has crossed that hurdle for ordinary hybrids.

Thanks in advance for any insight.

Sure. I've been waiting for the pluggable Prius as well, and checking the reviews as they come out. It has the advantage of being a more efficient road car, the Volt is running 33-45mpg when running on the gas, the pluggable Prius is rated at nearly 50, and I believe it, based on it being just like the non-pluggable one. And it won't do more than 62mph in EV mode, and is apparently very hard to use only as an EV, give it more than half throttle and it turns on the engine. Still, for a short commuter type, it might work well. The expensive model one is being claimed at nearly the $40G mark, without near the number of subsidies the Volt has. Its base model will be cheaper, but not by all that much.

[Serial_Worrier]

One reason not to believe electric cars are getting into gear: Young people are becoming more and more disillusioned with car culture every day, and would rather just ride a bike than deal with inherent expense of a car centric lifestyle, no matter what the thing runs on. EROEI's a bi*tch.

Here's my take on cars: they're cool...but they're also stupid. the more expensive energy becomes, the less sense they are going to make, no matter what they run on. On top of that, the less people that don't really need to drive drive, the more there is for those that have honest to goodness reasons to drive to use and the cheaper it is for them-and the rest of us to afford their services. Given the unholy infrastructure arrangement my generations been left to deal with, this is just how it has to be.

Yeah because all these young people are going to have 1-2 miles commutes to work(probably Starbucks or some trendy cafe) and it's never gonna rain or snow on that commute path...

[Logic]

...

Everyone I know who has a Prius or has ridden in one LOVED it. The overall quality reports in credible reviewers like Consumer Reports seem to show very good quality. Are you talking about "fit and finish" or "road feel" quality?

(I'm talking about durability and reliability quality).

We have had two Prius in the family for 4-5 years. We now own a Volt.
The 'fit and finish' quality is far superior and the technology in the Volt is well above the technology in the Prius. Just as the Prius tech was head and shoulders above anything GM had 5 years ago or so.

The road handling of the Volt is very nice. It is a huge improvement in our minds. However, I would always recommend a test drive as that is fairly subjective.

You are correct that the Volt isn't a true EV. However, it also is very different than standard hybrids. In a standard hybrid a blend of the electric motor and ICE moves the car 95% of the time. With the Volt you are operating on electric only for the first 35-45 miles.
Due to its lower efficiency running on gas, your driving habits & distance will determine if a Prius or Volt will save you gas.

[vision-master]

Get a scooter.........

Just picked up a new Vespa 300 super yesterday.

22 hp.

[Bruce_S]

What do you do when there is no fuel for it? Or do all peak oil scenarios now include crude based liquid fuels for random transport as far as the eye can see?

[Plantagenet]

Except one requires gasoline to move you, the kids, grandma, the dog and friends of all of these to the grocery store, work, soccer practice, the light rail station, and the other does not. At least for 40-50 miles.

That depends where you get your electricity. If your friendly local power company is generating electricity by burning coal or natural gas, then your electric car is running on fossil fuel----just like your neighbor's gas guzzling SUV.


Where does electricity come from?

[Bruce_S]

Except one requires gasoline to move you, the kids, grandma, the dog and friends of all of these to the grocery store, work, soccer practice, the light rail station, and the other does not. At least for 40-50 miles.

That depends where you get your electricity. If your friendly local power company is generating electricity by burning coal or natural gas, then your electric car is running on fossil fuel----just like your neighbor's gas guzzling SUV.

Of course. So, for example, the PAC NW or south eastern Canada can have near guilt free transportation, because of the nature of their electrical generation. Those utilizing the wind mill farms across the great plains are getting there. Those using natural gas aren't so bad either.

Rather than worrying about historically interesting events, I think the greater issue is the country getting better at generating cleaner electricity. I pay extra to get mine, and until I can get my own PV installation going on the roof, it seems reasonable to encourage this type of infrastructure build out as well.

Worrying about where electricity comes from is Issue #2 in the scheme of things, as long as the quantities are there, which doesn't appear to be an issue.

[vision-master]

So why worry about crude oil?

[Plantagenet]

the PAC NW or south eastern Canada can have near guilt free transportation, because of the nature of their electrical generation.

For those people who don't care about the virtual extermination of wild salmon populations and the destruction of entire natural river ecosystems, sure.

[Bruce_S]

So why worry about crude oil?

You have to admit, peak oil is a wonderful thing for distraction and misdirection in two ways, 1) while someone corners the market on Bloom boxes, EV manufacturing, improved battery technology, PV manufacturing or whatever the next BIG thing is going to be and 2) making boatloads of money at high oil prices on oil which you assumed would be profitable at $30/bbl, and are now getting $100+ for.

You can just see the next generation of robber barons drooling over this stuff.

[Bruce_S]

the PAC NW or south eastern Canada can have near guilt free transportation, because of the nature of their electrical generation.

For those people who don't care about the virtual extermination of wild salmon populations and the destruction of entire natural river ecosystems, sure.

If they cared, those dams wouldn't be there. They are there, therefore the decision has been made. Cheap and renewable electricity trumps the ecosystem. The story of our species.

[Outcast_Searcher]

the PAC NW or south eastern Canada can have near guilt free transportation, because of the nature of their electrical generation.

For those people who don't care about the virtual extermination of wild salmon populations and the destruction of entire natural river ecosystems, sure.

True, but unless you are willing to lie down and die, you WILL impact the planet. For example, to eat, something living has to be killed.

So it's matters of degree. How much do you want to impact the planet? How much are you willing to give up to make things better? (I use "you" here as in the general "you" as in ANY of us).

I chose not to have kids, as contributing to mindless BAU growth was a societal behavior (just like racism was when I was a kid) that I just absolutely REFUSED to participate in. (For this most "Christian" types said I was a sinner and selfish. You gotta just LOVE the smugness of humanity).

Are Salmon more important than GHG or AGW? I have no idea -- so some sort of balance would seem a prudent course. Of course, we humans seem to be REALLY BAD at that -- thus our plight.

[Unconventional Ideas]

One reason not to believe electric cars are getting into gear: Young people are becoming more and more disillusioned with car culture every day, and would rather just ride a bike than deal with inherent expense of a car centric lifestyle, no matter what the thing runs on. EROEI's a bi*tch.
Here's my take on cars: they're cool...but they're also stupid. the more expensive energy becomes, the less sense they are going to make, no matter what they run on. ..

I couldn't agree more. Happily, I can report at the age of 49, I am finally car-free; have been since the end of June. It is such a relief, and life has taken on new and deeper meanings for my wife and me. This after driving since I was 16.

Americuh! The new American Dream is walkability.

[Bruce_S]

The new American Dream is walkability.

Or bikeability. Someone could argue (but it wouldn't be me) that cars like the Volt are exactly what we DON'T need, for reasons having nothing to do with peak oil. This is because it allows BAU in terms of car culture to continue, electricity now powering the Friday night burnouts in front of the local burger joint instead of gasoline, when the idea is really to get everyone out of cars altogether. Americans being Americans, I'm guessing that if they really can't afford gas powered burnuts, they'll substitute electrical powered ones with nary a seconds thought.

[pstarr]

Or bikeability. Someone could argue (but it wouldn't be me) that cars like the Volt are exactly what we DON'T need, for reasons having nothing to do with peak oil. This is because it allows BAU in terms of car culture to continue, electricity now powering the Friday night burnouts in front of the local burger joint instead of gasoline, when the idea is really to get everyone out of cars altogether. Americans being Americans, I'm guessing that if they really can't afford gas powered burnuts, they'll substitute electrical powered ones with nary a seconds thought.

I have no idea what you intend to say.