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THE Nuclear Power Thread pt 5 (merged)

Discussions of conventional and alternative energy production technologies.

Re: THE Bikini Island Nuclear Situation Thread

Unread postby ColossalContrarian » Thu 01 Sep 2011, 19:45:31

babystrangeloop wrote:
Frank M. Nelson, engineer, consultant
By T. Rees Shapiro / Washington Post / August 15, 2011


Frank M. Nelson, 89, a retired Navy lieutenant commander who later worked as a private engineering consultant, died Aug. 5 ...

Dr. Nelson, an electrical engineer, served as an officer aboard destroyers and an aircraft carrier in the Pacific during World War II. He participated in ... the Bikini Atoll atomic bomb tests, witnessing one of the explosive blasts from the deck of a Navy ship. ...


You just go picking and choosing links from google to make your point don't you. He had Alzheimer’s disease... That probably came from witnessing the explosive blast??? you just connect the dots like that and it all comes together doesn't it? He must have died from witnessing the explosions.

I've got news for you baby, everybody dies some day. Most importantly, he is survived by three children. Can so much be said of you? Do you even pay attention to your children or do constantly google catastrophes trying to convince people that we're all going to die?

NEWS FLASH ----> WE ALREADY KNOW WE'RE GOING TO DIE!!!

Don't omit the most important part of the article to make your point.
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Re: Nuclear Power = Human & Environmental Disaster

Unread postby dohboi » Fri 02 Sep 2011, 11:37:54

Video A vast swirling miasma of airborne cesium 137. Sickeningly hypnotic to watch.

Meanwhile, closer to the plant, many reports of soil showing over 3 million b.
Contamination

updates
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Re: THE Bikini Island Nuclear Situation Thread

Unread postby babystrangeloop » Sat 03 Sep 2011, 16:19:07

ColossalContrarian wrote:NEWS FLASH ----> WE ALREADY KNOW WE'RE GOING TO DIE!!!


Umm, this is the "Current Events" thread and nuclear energy is more than tangential to Peak Oil and Bikini Island is still a current event in that it didn't get cleaned up and it didn't go away.

So far the only two responses to this thread fall into two categories:

1. off-topic stuff about Japan (there is already a thread about the Japanese nuclear situation where such posts would not be off-topic)

2. emotional outburst (which are relevant in that nuclear energy should provoke outrage.)

So I must thank you for being, at least, a number two type response.
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Re: THE Bikini Island Nuclear Situation Thread

Unread postby Ferretlover » Sat 03 Sep 2011, 16:24:50

Everybody: No matter which thread/topic you post on, PLEASE stay of topic!
"Open the gates of hell!" ~Morgan Freeman's character in the movie, Olympus Has Fallen.
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Re: THE Bikini Island Nuclear Situation Thread

Unread postby ColossalContrarian » Sat 03 Sep 2011, 18:48:47

babystrangeloop wrote:
ColossalContrarian wrote:NEWS FLASH ----> WE ALREADY KNOW WE'RE GOING TO DIE!!!


Umm, this is the "Current Events" thread and nuclear energy is more than tangential to Peak Oil and Bikini Island is still a current event in that it didn't get cleaned up and it didn't go away.

So far the only two responses to this thread fall into two categories:

1. off-topic stuff about Japan (there is already a thread about the Japanese nuclear situation where such posts would not be off-topic)

2. emotional outburst (which are relevant in that nuclear energy should provoke outrage.)

So I must thank you for being, at least, a number two type response.


You don't know Frank, you don't know his children, you only know he died at 89 and witnessed a nuclear explosion. This is why you lose any credit in any argument. You're a bot that searches threads and articles looking for simple links to make extraordinary connections. Come up with something REAL and then your arguments may have value.
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Re: THE Bikini Island Nuclear Situation Thread

Unread postby babystrangeloop » Sat 03 Sep 2011, 20:10:34

ColossalContrarian wrote:You don't know Frank, you don't know his children, you only know he died at 89 and witnessed a nuclear explosion. This is why you lose any credit in any argument. You're a bot that searches threads and articles looking for simple links to make extraordinary connections. Come up with something REAL and then your arguments may have value.


What exactly are you saying? Bikini Island isn't an issue?
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Re: THE Bikini Island Nuclear Situation Thread

Unread postby ColossalContrarian » Sun 04 Sep 2011, 03:37:51

babystrangeloop wrote:
ColossalContrarian wrote:You don't know Frank, you don't know his children, you only know he died at 89 and witnessed a nuclear explosion. This is why you lose any credit in any argument. You're a bot that searches threads and articles looking for simple links to make extraordinary connections. Come up with something REAL and then your arguments may have value.


What exactly are you saying? Bikini Island isn't an issue?


It certainly is an issue but you should be more concerned with the fact that you will pass with no acknowledgement and dignaty for you are simply a stool to be examined. 1's and 0's, unimportant in a radioactive universe. 10000000110000001101110000111100001111000100001111011100011000111112 ouch, forgotten, you've witnessed nothing except self deprivation, hell no? not for you, that is too nice for a bit of bytes. SUX2BU, do your job and keep posting pointless mindless blabber because that is your existence -nothing of existential importance. 00000001+00000001=00000010 but two too you = nonsense, ashamed I am for ever giving credit to what you post...
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Re: Nuclear Power = Human & Environmental Disaster

Unread postby dohboi » Mon 12 Sep 2011, 09:02:20

One dead in blast at French nuclear facility
France

Nuclear site
The furnace that exploded is used to melt waste with levels of radioactivity ranging from low to very high, ASN said.
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Re: Nuclear Power = Human & Environmental Disaster

Unread postby ColossalContrarian » Mon 12 Sep 2011, 09:16:45

dohboi wrote:
One dead in blast at French nuclear facility
France
Nuclear site
The furnace that exploded is used to melt waste with levels of radioactivity ranging from low to very high, ASN said.

I wonder if we'll get any news on why it blew up? Maybe this is a typical industrial accident or it's being played down like Fukushima initially was. Too early to tell at least.

Would this even be "scaled" on the nuclear accident level that goes to 7 or does it not apply here? So many questions. Hopefully it truly is contained but it's so hard to trust the news anymore...
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Re: Nuclear Power = Human & Environmental Disaster

Unread postby ColossalContrarian » Mon 12 Sep 2011, 09:33:34

Anyone have any idea how these nuclear ovens work? I thought MOX was already really hot to begin with.
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Re: Nuclear Power = Human & Environmental Disaster

Unread postby dohboi » Mon 12 Sep 2011, 15:00:02

RalphW at TOD's drumbeat says:
The furnace that exploded is used to melt waste with levels of radioactivity ranging from low to very high, ASN said.
The Oil Drum

and as Undertow point out in the same thread, the whole site is pixelated on Google earth: maps
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Re: Nuclear Power = Human & Environmental Disaster

Unread postby peeker01 » Mon 12 Sep 2011, 15:04:58

It was an industrial accident doobie. Every day people die as a result of industrialization. Sad, but true.
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Re: Nuclear Power = Human & Environmental Disaster

Unread postby dohboi » Mon 12 Sep 2011, 23:30:10

Japan's prime minister at the height of the nuclear crisis has said he feared the country would collapse, and revealed that Tepco had considered abandoning the Fukushima Daiichi power plant after it was hit by the 11 March tsunami.

In candid interviews with Japanese newspapers, Naoto Kan, who resigned this month, said that at one point he believed the disaster could become many times worse than Chernobyl.

"It was truly a spine-chilling thought," he told the Tokyo Shimbun, adding that he foresaw a situation in which greater Tokyo's 30 million people would have to be evacuated, a move that would "compromise the very existence of the Japanese nation".

In the first week of the crisis Tepco played down speculation that fuel rods had melted after the quake and tsunami crippled the reactors' cooling systems. "The power was totally lost and there was no cooling capacity," Kan said. "I knew what that meant and I thought, 'This is going to be a disaster'."

His unease grew when his trade minister, Banri Kaieda, told him that Tepco was considering pulling its staff out of the plant and leaving it to its fate. "Withdrawing from the plant was out of the question," he said. "If that had happened, Tokyo would be deserted by now. It was a critical moment for Japan's survival. It could have been a led to leaks of dozens of times more radiation than Chernobyl."...



http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2011/sep/08/fukushima-nuclear-disaster-pm-japan
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Re: Nuclear Power = Human & Environmental Disaster

Unread postby dohboi » Tue 13 Sep 2011, 13:07:20

Glowing cats--coming soon to a nuclear facility near you?
glowing cats
Last edited by Ferretlover on Thu 22 Sep 2011, 09:00:29, edited 1 time in total.
Reason: Shortened EXTREMELY long URL.
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Re: The REAL problem with nuclear energy

Unread postby LiannaS » Wed 14 Sep 2011, 04:06:54

When I read this thread I remembered the nuclear waste treatment facility in the south of France that was shaken by a blast Monday afternoon. The explosion in French nuclear facility kills one, injures four. French authorities say that no radiation was leaked in the incident. It all got resolved without major damage (except someone died).
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Re: The REAL problem with nuclear energy

Unread postby diemos » Wed 14 Sep 2011, 09:29:59

LiannaS wrote:It all got resolved without major damage (except someone died).


Industrial accidents happen. Do you know how many people die each year in coal mines? On oil rigs?
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Re: The REAL problem with nuclear energy

Unread postby steam_cannon » Wed 14 Sep 2011, 09:39:19

cephalotus wrote:PS: afaik Norway has stopped its plans to build a thorium reactor in 2009 after a study from Statens Strålevern calculated the costs and risks of that technology:
http://www.taz.de/1/zukunft/umwelt/arti ... e-loesung/
(sorry, I wasn't able to find any news about that in English)


Here's a translation:
Thorium is not a solution

von REINHARD WOLFF Norway gives up plans to build a thorium reactor, after a study has shown. Safe and clean nuclear power is not with the fuel of uncleavable REINHARD WOLFF

Now Norway is so far. The local Radiation Protection Authority Statens Strålevern allow all plans for the construction of a thorium reactor, a rejection. Both Environment Minister Erik Sohlheim and Economy Minister Sylvia Brustad at the close.

The red-green government in Oslo in 2007 had been at Statens Strålevern commissioned a study. At that time, the strong lobby of thorium had started a debate about the supposed benefits of this technique, the state power company Statkraft initiated, to indicate interest for a reactor. Norwegen verfügt vermutlich über die drittreichsten Thorium-Vorkommen der Welt. Norway has probably the world's third richest thorium deposits in the world.

The Norwegian parliament has banned the construction of nuclear power plants 30 years ago by law. And it should remain under the present ruling of the Radiation Protection Authority probably. In their report Statens Strålevern examined the entire thorium fuel cycle from extraction to nuclear waste storage. Result: "Conventional reactors, regardless whether they are based on uranium and thorium fuel, lead to radioactive contamination of air and water, in both cases there is a significant accident risk, especially with regard to uncontrolled chain reactions and at worst a meltdown."

Reactors, which operate with thorium were so similar adverse environmental consequences and a similar risk as those with potential uranium fuel. Of thorium supporters just before the supposed safety as a core melt is brought into the argument field. The minerals from the radioactive metal thorium extracted Thorite is not fissionable. Thorium as fuel must therefore be supplied from outside neutrons to start the chain reaction producing energy and keep going. If this is set, it also stops the reaction.

According to the Radiation Protection Authority but does not mean that there is no risk of accident to a nuclear meltdown. Also for the removal of residual heat-functioning cooling systems were needed: "The probability of a meltdown is to be judged on uranium or thorium fuel immediately."

A thorium reactor while producing less and less long-lived nuclear waste than a nuclear power with uranium fuel rods. This is also more stable than conventional nuclear waste. But he radiates stronger, which complicates transport and storage.

The decisive point, however, the study shows that the thorium technology does not solve the nuclear waste problem. It adds even during operation of the reactor, a much higher radiation levels. Even the safety-thorium-use offer little advantage: Although only small amounts of plutonium fell on, and this is also for the production of nuclear weapons is not particularly interesting. But in the hands of terrorists could also thorium reactor for "non-peaceful purposes" are used.

The verdict is not much better for the hitherto existing only on paper thorium-concept Accelerator Driven System (ADS), a combination of a particle accelerator and a lead-cooled reactor from. It is true that the risk of a meltdown here really low, they say. The 8,000 to 10,000 tonnes of lead metal of his cooling system could absorb the residual heat from the core probably. But such a construction due to the combination with a particle accelerator as a whole is vulnerable. At the same time it will come to a radioactive contamination of the entire cooling system. There's also a completely clear whether this technique could be implemented in 20 or 30 years to economically acceptable cost.

"The debate should now be thorium is a closed chapter," Nils Bohmer, believes nuclear expert at the environmental organization Bellona, "Hopefully, the policy now busy with real solutions to the climate problem."
"So people go out there and spend years of their life researching and applying strict scientific method, all in good faith, only to have their body of work discredited with sound-bite sized arguments in which they are accused of having some nefarious agenda." -mos6507
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Re: Nuclear Power = Human & Environmental Disaster

Unread postby dohboi » Tue 20 Sep 2011, 14:05:09

Fukushima: Reflections six months on In a special Fukushima issue of the Bulletin of the Atomic Scientists, published today by SAGE, experts examine the current and future impact of Fukushima, what might have been done to lessen the scale of the accident, and the steps we need to take both in Japan and worldwide to prevent another nuclear tragedy. This content will be free to access for a limited period.

Special Fukushima Issue (full access): http://bos.sagepub.com/content/current

And then there's:
Will Tokyo Be Evacuated Due to Fukushima Radiation?
Tokyo Radiation Exceeds Chernobyl In Some Places … Japanese Government and Experts Discuss Evacuation. Yesterday, Al Jazeera pointed out:

Experts estimate the radiation leaked from Fukushima nuclear plant will exceed that of Chernobyl.

The need to evacuate parts of the sprawling capital of 35 million may have once seemed an incredible prospect but some experts say the possibility can no longer be ignored.
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Re: Nuclear Power = Human & Environmental Disaster

Unread postby meemoe_uk » Thu 22 Sep 2011, 08:28:44

And here's what you won't read in any of the nuke scare&hype spam that Dohboi's dumping on this thread. Threads at PO.com should not be used as a spam dump dohboi. They should be used for debate.

Energy Source Death Rate (deaths per TWh)

Coal – world average 161 (26% of world energy, 50% of electricity)
Coal – China 278
Coal – USA 15
Oil 36 (36% of world energy)
Natural Gas 4 (21% of world energy)
Biofuel/Biomass 12
Peat 12
Solar (rooftop) 0.44 (less than 0.1% of world energy)
Wind 0.15 (less than 1% of world energy)
Hydro 0.10 (europe death rate, 2.2% of world energy)
Hydro - world including Banqiao) 1.4 (about 2500 TWh/yr and 171,000 Banqiao dead)
Nuclear 0.04 (5.9% of world energy)


Before anything is done about by far the safest way to create energy, we should be improving coal miner's health and safety conditions.

Total deaths due to radiation at Fukushima = 0


Maybe dohboi think's the more spam he dumps on this thread, the more people he kills at fukushima, therfore amping the hype he revels. It ain't working doh.
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Re: The REAL problem with nuclear energy

Unread postby GoIllini » Tue 11 Oct 2011, 08:59:09

It's not that simple guys. A number of plants have gravity driven coolant and all have on-site generators at least a week of fuel- some with several weeks. Also, the entire emission of long-term radioactive materials (Cesium and Strontium) from Fukushima Daiichi for all three plants amounts to 20% of that from Chernobyl. Hence why the contaminated area is significantly smaller and Japan is saying folks *should* be able to return within 20 years while Pripyat still remains a ghost town after 25. The off-site contamination from the plutonium and other trans-uranics is a tiny fraction of what we had from Little Boy in Nagasaki; it's largely all "short term" fission products that last less than 500 years.

There's five years worth of fuel that has to be cooled in the spent fuel storage pools. After that, the fuel doesn't require significant cooling and can be put into dry casks. The Cesium and Strontium- the most damaging long-term radioactive waste- has a half life of 30 years and will be nearly gone within 300 years.

Bottom line is that if TSHTF and society implodes, we only need to keep the fuel cooled for five years. Also western nuclear reactors have proven to have less severity of reactor failure and the US will, at worst, see the impact of 30 Fukushimas if every reactor melts down. This will have a serious impact on our economy, but a single-digit impact on our long-term agricultural productivity.
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