Would like the board's opinion on my current situation...

[SeaGypsy]

Timing is important, many of us here have banged heads with Cog at some point, but on this he is essentially right. It's best on a board like this if we all try to stick with the subject at hand and address the post in response, rather than becoming emotionally clouded by past communication with particular board members. Some people visiting have no idea what past conversations have taken place.

One thing I would bet is that Cog has had to deal with more than his fair share of a$$holes in his time and that he probably has some very practical techniques for doing so. His mentioning the importance of work ethic is touching on this.

It is true that while working, one learns about work. You can learn things from garbage cleaning which apply to teaching and vis-versa. It is vital to keep motivated, nomatter how hard it seems. Responsibility is a good thing if it keeps you going. My children are my biggest motivator. If not for them I probably would already be set up in a mountain cave.

[Cog]

You can start by finding a job. Any job. You will feel better about yourself right off the bat. Working in fast food is a humbling experience. Trust me, after doing it for four years in college, while seemingly everyone else partied, I made sure I wouldn't have to do it again. But do it again I would if I had to.

Even if paid in chips?

Its funny you mentioned chips. I worked at a Long John Silvers as a cook. After getting back to the dorm with a shitload of leftover french fries and fish, which I traded for beer, I would sit and study until 0200 and do it all over again the next day. Yeah, I would work for chips.

[PrestonSturges]

You mentioned a lousy home environment as a child and perplexing problems as an adult.

Have you tried a program like Al-Anon? You have the time. It's a good way to meet people, although many of them can be distractions. Find a program and work it hard. There is no telling where it will go, but it will change your perspective.

[Sixstrings]

2) Start some sort of business. You'll need transportation, most likely. I had a "maid" a few years back, who was about my age (50s) and a slightly overweight white guy. Not much education. He made, he claimed, about $50K a year cleaning houses. We paid him $70. I doubt he was ever here for more than 3 hours. I think he did 3 of those a day. It wasn't much, but it kept the wolf from the door. Cash business. Few if any taxes and he had all the work he could handle.

That's actually not a bad idea. I don't know for sure about the money part, but I've run into people too over the years who have a "cleaning business." They seem to make a living at it. The nice thing is this appears to be an industry where big corp chains haven't taken over. Lot of businesses use cleaning services (all the doctors and dentist offices do, lawyers offices accountants insurance etc., call centers, some retail like car rental).. get a couple contracts going and hey you're in business. Hardly any investment involved.. windex, paper towels. That's about it.

And the thing is.. if you're going to do a crap job, it's much nicer to be the *owner* in business for yourself.

[americandream]

@oneaboveall

Some on this forum are symptomatic of society's malaise where those who are invariably the fastest to the mooch line when life turns hard for them, are also the first to proffer "manly" advice. However, if there's anything to learn from these critters, it's that you're largely on your own and you are going to have to think creatively to improve the quality of what gives you satisfaction and meaning. That's the nature of a system that promotes self interest above all else. Just take this as a lesson on what confronts you and use some creative out of the box thinking.

There's a whole lot you can do out there, both within the system and on the margins of it. It all depends on what inspires you. I had long fancied the idea of living a communal life but my life has essentially revolved around the financial services which I excel in so I have sort of combined the two and live a fairly rural life surrounded by all manner of sustainable initiatives but earn a living from the finance world, self employed.

I prepared myself for this transition whilst working as a lawyer...so to that extent, I used my employment to open a gateway into transition. Just an example of how an existing situation can be made to work for you and how one can arrive at a nice mix by creative compromise. You need to first work out what it is that inspires you creatively.

[Oneaboveall]

You mentioned a lousy home environment as a child and perplexing problems as an adult...

I did have a lousy home environment, true. I do think I did pretty well for myself despite of it. I'm guessing most people who come from that environment don't get master's degrees. I should also note that I don't drink at all anymore, but my sister and other relatives do. Funny thing is they all have steady jobs despite some obvious problems with alcohol (Granted they don't drink at work, but get them at a party and watch them go. We had a wedding about a month ago and all of my cousins were drunk).

[Sixstrings]

Oneaboveall,

You haven't really described your job search (we don't need details though). What's really the situation, are you at the end of your rope as far as finding something you went to college for? Finding a career position?

How do you feel about working any job, anything, just to get working and some money coming in?

Is depression the issue and you just feel stuck? I know what that's like, I've been laid off before. For professionals this is a tough spot, they really don't want to work outside their chosen field. But IMHO anyway it's important to keep working no matter what it is. Keeps your skills up, how to deal with people etc.

OTOH I've seen studies that show once professional downgrade in job choices, most don't recover their previous income. It's a tough thing going on in the US, there are millions of former professionals spending 2, 3, 4 years looking for something like what they had previously. So the question is at what point does one take any job, just to get working again.

P.S. what about virtual schools on the internet. I know a guy who got a job like that, my state has an online school option. So he just works from home or wherever he wants to. He also teaches University of Phoenix online. Could this be an option for you? You wouldn't have to deal with bosses in person.

[Oneaboveall]

@oneaboveall

Some on this forum are symptomatic of society's malaise where those who are invariably the fastest to the mooch line when life turns hard for them, are also the first to proffer "manly" advice. However, if there's anything to learn from these critters, it's that you're largely on your own and you are going to have to think creatively to improve the quality of what gives you satisfaction and meaning. That's the nature of a system that promotes self interest above all else. Just take this as a lesson on what confronts you and use some creative out of the box thinking.

There's a whole lot you can do out there, both within the system and on the margins of it. It all depends on what inspires you. I had long fancied the idea of living a communal life but my life has essentially revolved around the financial services which I excel in so I have sort of combined the two and live a fairly rural life surrounded by all manner of sustainable initiatives but earn a living from the finance world, self employed.

I prepared myself for this transition whilst working as a lawyer...so to that extent, I used my employment to open a gateway into transition. Just an example of how an existing situation can be made to work for you and how one can arrive at a nice mix by creative compromise. You need to first work out what it is that inspires you creatively.

Like I said before AmericanDream, there are lot of insightful people on this board and I consider you to among their number.

I tell you honestly though... it's not only being unemployed; it's also looking at what I've done as well. The primary purpose of this board is the discussion of resource depletion and, when I actually think about it, haven't I contributed to that issue as much as anyone? I collect toys and have accumulated a huge collection over the years.

I'm sure you don't consider this:

013 by oneaboveall23, on Flickr
to be anymore significant than the cheap "garden gnomes" you've mentioned a few times. By buying this stuff, which costs energy and material to make, haven't I helped to waste precious resources?

[peeker01]

Everybody has a hobby. Don't beat yourself up. I bet even american dream indulges himself
in some kind of hobby, when he's not spewing anti-american rhetoric here on po.

[Oneaboveall]

Oneaboveall,

You haven't really described your job search (we don't need details though). What's really the situation, are you at the end of your rope as far as finding something you went to college for? Finding a career position?

How do you feel about working any job, anything, just to get working and some money coming in?

Is depression the issue and you just feel stuck? I know what that's like, I've been laid off before. For professionals this is a tough spot, they really don't want to work outside their chosen field. But IMHO anyway it's important to keep working no matter what it is. Keeps your skills up, how to deal with people etc...

well, the whole point of getting the MLIS at Clarion was to start a new career, as my previous one wasn't for me. Right now, it seems that everyplace wants experience and/or some bizarre requirement (e.g. being able to speak French and Japanese). I really would like to work in a library at some point, but that's been the part that's been such a slog.

[AgentR11]

Yeah, don't sweat your hobbies.. unless they're outside in the Texas summer and make you sweat.

Your problem seems very symptomatic of those who pursue liberal arts fields; in that there are lot more of you guys, than there are jobs of any sort that call to your specific field of study. OTOH, have you considered that, like many, the liberal arts education you have received need not be expressed strictly in a career based upon that study? A lot of liberal arts folks go in to finance, retail, and service fields and do very well; others have talent as writers and such. While you should never pay to get entry into a career, there's nothing wrong with pursuing careers that compensate based on commissions or modest salary plus performance bonuses; you don't need to pursue some small cog in giant machine career if you are not well suited to it. There's also absolutely nothing wrong with being self employed, or pursuing a career as a novelist or other print field. Just don't expect easy; the times require those who wish for early stage professional careers to be absolutely dedicated to their craft and their company; doing it on your own demands more, not less should that be your choice.

You don't need permission.
You need to produce.

[SeaGypsy]

One of my brothers was in a similar predicament a couple of years back. He has a degree in Eng Lit but had no real relevant experience, wanted to work in a library. I guess he kind of lucked in. There was a job advert for someone to sort out books for a large charity group. He went for it, during the interview, they showed him a few shipping containers full of books, unsorted and told him there is no way they can process all of it. They mainly wanted him to go through looking for high value/ rare titles. He wound up bringing in a few people. Over the last 2 years he has built a very successfull cafe/ library/ bookstore and a bulk used book business. The cafe and book sorting staff are now 6 in total. They only throw out wrecked books. His wage is pretty ordinary, but he loves the job and knows it is leading in a direction where he has a lot of options including the possibility to start his own business. His passion for books and ethic for recycling are the keys to his success.

I saw the writing on the wall in 07 and switched very deliberately from arts to medical. It was very easy to get started in remote care work, having experience working with aboriginal people was enough to get me a go. In 4 years in this sector I have now had 8 employers, I am now on my 7th and 8th. I am continuously studying for work, but have mostly been paid the same as qualified people alongside me. Having so much diverse experience has put me in a position ideal to work training people in this field, thus my last 3 jobs have all been training people as part of the work. My main job now is just training/ tutoring/ counselling.

I had no great desire for this kind of work. It was simply a matter of having to make a living, support my family, whilst knowing that peak oil is going to trigger a collapse in employment markets. The way I see it the last secure 'jobs' will be in care services. If it gets to the point the old and infirm are dumped in the street, it's time to run to the hills, regardless of what industry you work in.

I haven't had a male boss for about 5 years. Care services and training for care services are dominated by women. It has taken me quite a while to learn how to work well with female managers. I don't want to go into a big spiel about the difference, but it is significant. Teaching is not an easy job. I have found it more tiring than laying bricks. However it is likely to be a fairly secure option for employment for those who can hack it. There is a shortage of male teachers, mostly because of the fear of being persecuted by students or female coworkers. This is simple to deal with. Never be alone with a student. Don't put a foot out of line. If people make false accusations, just get on with doing what's right.

[Cog]

I believe I know the problem now.

[americandream]

Yeah, don't sweat your hobbies.. unless they're outside in the Texas summer and make you sweat.

Your problem seems very symptomatic of those who pursue liberal arts fields; in that there are lot more of you guys, than there are jobs of any sort that call to your specific field of study. OTOH, have you considered that, like many, the liberal arts education you have received need not be expressed strictly in a career based upon that study? A lot of liberal arts folks go in to finance, retail, and service fields and do very well; others have talent as writers and such. While you should never pay to get entry into a career, there's nothing wrong with pursuing careers that compensate based on commissions or modest salary plus performance bonuses; you don't need to pursue some small cog in giant machine career if you are not well suited to it. There's also absolutely nothing wrong with being self employed, or pursuing a career as a novelist or other print field. Just don't expect easy; the times require those who wish for early stage professional careers to be absolutely dedicated to their craft and their company; doing it on your own demands more, not less should that be your choice.

You don't need permission.
You need to produce.

I don't know what sort of people you have met in finance, but from my experience, although you get all sorts in all fields, the financial field is rife with egos and ambition and is anything but liberally arts inclined. You don't work in an accounting firm for a sense of equanimity or cameradarie.

Power dynamics however, are rife in many sectors of the economy and has its own issues as climbing the ladder tend to be less a case of how good you are but more one of how well you can please the boss. Capitalism being what it is, there are no easy answers to this problem but doing a little of what you find rewarding goes a long way in helping ones productivity and can blunt/negate these problems, depending on whether you remain employed or go it alone. As an employed tax lawyer, my solution was being fast off the block with answers to complex tax issues...being able to think and give answers whilst on the move..and at a faster pace than my colleagues. As a self employed person, I am my own master so I have gone one step further in controlling my destiny.

The resolution may well be sweeping the streets or working on Wall Street. What's important is that you find that niche that gives one a sense of well-being and let the rest fall into place.

[americandream]

Yeah, don't sweat your hobbies.. unless they're outside in the Texas summer and make you sweat.

Your problem seems very symptomatic of those who pursue liberal arts fields; in that there are lot more of you guys, than there are jobs of any sort that call to your specific field of study. OTOH, have you considered that, like many, the liberal arts education you have received need not be expressed strictly in a career based upon that study? A lot of liberal arts folks go in to finance, retail, and service fields and do very well; others have talent as writers and such. While you should never pay to get entry into a career, there's nothing wrong with pursuing careers that compensate based on commissions or modest salary plus performance bonuses; you don't need to pursue some small cog in giant machine career if you are not well suited to it. There's also absolutely nothing wrong with being self employed, or pursuing a career as a novelist or other print field. Just don't expect easy; the times require those who wish for early stage professional careers to be absolutely dedicated to their craft and their company; doing it on your own demands more, not less should that be your choice.

You don't need permission.
You need to produce.

I don't know what sort of people you have met in finance, but from my experience, although you get all sorts in all fields, the financial field is rife with egos and ambition and is anything but liberally arts inclined. You don't work in an accounting firm for a sense of equanimity or cameradarie.

Power dynamics however, are rife in many sectors of the economy and has its own issues as climbing the ladder tend to be less a case of how good you are but more one of how well you can please the boss. Capitalism being what it is, there are no easy answers to this problem but doing a little of what you find rewarding goes a long way in helping ones productivity and can blunt/negate these problems, depending on whether you remain employed or go it alone. As an employed tax lawyer, my solution was being fast off the block with answers to complex tax issues...being able to think and give answers whilst on the move..and at a faster pace than my colleagues. As a self employed person, I am my own master so I have gone one step further in controlling my destiny.

The resolution may well be sweeping the streets or working on Wall Street. What's important is that you find that niche that gives one a sense of well-being and let the rest fall into place.

[americandream]

Sorry mod. Double post. Can't seem to delete the second, apologies.

[diemos]

Power dynamics however, are rife in many sectors of the economy

Humans are hierarchic social animals. You'll never run out of people trying to advance themselves by stepping on you.

[Sixstrings]

By buying this stuff, which costs energy and material to make, haven't I helped to waste precious resources?

You're thinking too deeply. The rich have more toys than you.. and everyone has lots of stuff or something they collect or just so much plastic junk in their home they become a hoarder and it all caves in on them one day.

Old toys are an investment, they'll be worth money assuming no Mad Max collapse.

Reading your above post, I understand now.. it's not a situation where you're desperate for employment ASAP. If you can afford to hold out for the job you want, that's your right. The old standard advice is "take any job, just get working" but as I said there are also studies that show it may be wise to be stubborn and hold out as long finances allow.

[americandream]

Power dynamics however, are rife in many sectors of the economy

Humans are hierarchic social animals. You'll never run out of people trying to advance themselves by stepping on you.

That may well be true. Which is why I strongly advocate that whilst in capitalism, which is self advancement on steroids, do not entertain illusions. This guy has issues with the way he is being treated at work. Eiether he make himself valuable enough that he can bludgeon his way through them or else he strikes out on his own. Alternatively he can take the view that its just the way it is and spend a very short life miserable as hell.

Enforced suffering is no solution for him or else he would not have posted this thread, it seems. It may well work for those who are resigned to their fate, but not for the OP I suspect.

[Loki]

Oneaboveall, we're the same age and have pursued a similar career/educational trajectory. I think Six's advice on the first page is golden. Probably not something a person who's spent too long in school wants to hear, but it's the brutal truth, put far more constructively than Cog's abrasive responses (despite him being 100% correct).

I also have a master's in history---most useless piece of paper ever. I was also pursuing a teaching career before I figured out that I didn't like teaching. And I've known a number of library science majors---the job market for them has been terrible for many years. Bad decision to get an MLS, but it's a done deal, just like my bad decision to go to grad school.

What Six says on page one, and what posters here have said for years, is that in the context of economic decline, you need to (1) diversify your job skills and (2) be prepared to do any kind of work that pays the bills. Have multiple income streams if possible. Work is better than no work, regardless of what you're doing. A prideful decision to become part of the structurally unemployed will lead to ruin.

We are in economic decline now, you really need to absorb that fact. Based on your posts in this thread, I don't think you have.

What am I doing with my master's in history now? Working on a farm. I'm either out in the field, in the packout, or driving a delivery truck every day, ~50hrs/wk this time of year. It's hard physical labor in the cold rain or hot sun, transplanting, weeding, moving irrigation pipe, spraying, harvesting, processing, loading/unloading trucks, driving tractor, etc. I won't be starving for lack of Mexicans any time in the near future, thanks very much ShavedMonkey (what is it with you Aussies and your hatred of Americans?).

Farm work pays shiite, no benefits, no overtime. But I frickin' love it. I got into horticulture 4 years ago almost by accident, applied for a random job I saw on Craigslist doing tree work, found that I loved horticultural work, got an applied associate's in horticulture, then moved into farming when I finally had had enough from my dick of a boss at the tree job.

Horticulture/farming has been the best career move I've made thus far. I wish I had gotten into horticulture/farming when I was in my 20s instead of going to grad school, but better late than never.

Bottom line Oneaboveall is that you need to broaden your outlook and don't expect to get work in your field. Find a productive trade, swallow your pride, and work your fucking ass off.