Collapse of Society/Environment Pt. 2(merged)

[truecougarblue]

OK, a number that may help put bond rates in to perspective, and we should all be familiar with it, $600,000,000,000. That is the projected extent of QE2. It's declared intent is to keep bond rates low and keep deflation from slamming us into recession.

I agree that the reserve currency status enjoyed by the dollar is what makes this possible, but it is inevitable that the Fed by expanding its balance sheet in this manner is only delaying the day of reckoning, not avoiding it.

Why? Because not too many years hence the interest alone on the US sovereign debt will exceed our real GDP(minus genuine budgetary necessities), and like the loan owners from the housing bubble found out, there just isn't any free lunch.

My guess when that happens we'll get the politicos on board to abolish the fed, wipe out the balance sheet and all its obligations entirely, and start over with Fed 2.0. It has happened before.

Time line? 5-10 years out, but another front in our apparently everlasting war would accelerate that.

[rangerone314]

Oil hits $5/gallon by 2013 and $6/gallon by 2015.

By 2020, gold will be $4,500/ounce and silver will be $300/ounce. Hyperinflation will be underway by that year.

By 2025, the US will collapse as a political entity. Political power will center around the states, with some groups of states trying to cooperate (ie Washington and Oregon, Maine & Vermont etc). Cities will be split into between armed enclaves where order is maintained (Green Zones) and Cuidad Juarez-like violent slums (those parts will resemble "Escape from New York"). In the 3rd World, mass starvation will be underway.

Between 2025 and 2035, 500 million will starve to death. Between 2035 and 2050, another 1.5 billion will starve.

[americandream]

OK, a number that may help put bond rates in to perspective, and we should all be familiar with it, $600,000,000,000. That is the projected extent of QE2. It's declared intent is to keep bond rates low and keep deflation from slamming us into recession.

I agree that the reserve currency status enjoyed by the dollar is what makes this possible, but it is inevitable that the Fed by expanding its balance sheet in this manner is only delaying the day of reckoning, not avoiding it.

Why? Because not too many years hence the interest alone on the US sovereign debt will exceed our real GDP(minus genuine budgetary necessities), and like the loan owners from the housing bubble found out, there just isn't any free lunch.

My guess when that happens we'll get the politicos on board to abolish the fed, wipe out the balance sheet and all its obligations entirely, and start over with Fed 2.0. It has happened before.

Time line? 5-10 years out, but another front in our apparently everlasting war would accelerate that.

I am going to go out on a limb here and make a few bold predictions. For one, I don't believe that there is a USA. It's a fiction designed to hide the true nature of the global order. America is in fact the global banker, militia and printing press of thr world's monied elite, whether they be from Iran, China, Europe, Africa or Latin America. There are a few wild cards in the world....Sudan, Cuba and N. Korea. All the rest are effectively beholden on the continuation of an American lead in the expansion of the capitalist experiment. Without America, Putin's Russia is an oilfield with nowhere to really go other than half baked mercantilism. Likewise Iran, China and even Europe (with the exclusion of the UK seeing as it parented cultural America). Any risk of the US sliding into some inflationary fiat currency scenario would immediately rally the battalions to her aid, in defiance of what many appear to expect. This is what the end of the Cold War and defeats of the likes of Saddam and Milosevic ushered in. It will take the pauperisation of this global order to render America surplus to requirements.

[SeaGypsy]

Any risk of the US sliding into some inflationary fiat currency scenario would immediately rally the battalions to her aid, in defiance of what many appear to expect.

While your point is essentially valid, it overlooks the usefullness of the current inflationary scenario to the USA and the fact that the elites barely feel any pain from inflation; in fact they sit in glee waiting for deflationary effects to bring assets down.

Ok, the rest of the world is beholden to the $USD, the US machine of economic state.
This does not mean the rest of the world can prevent the US taking an inflationary monetary position.
It means they must allow the Fed to weaken the $USD at a pace of the choosing of the Fed.

I am sure you are correct that the world will not allow the US to fail until the elites themselves are impoverished; but inflation is as inevitable as dawn in this post peak oil world.

[Plantagenet]

Not long ago "the bond market" ... said, that Greece & Co have been in perfect shape. They said the same about Lehman brothers and so on...

Yes, of course. But credit ratings from 3 years ago are irrelevant to Greece's current predicament.

The world keeps changing---nothing is static. The fact that Greece could get loans when money was easy and credit was loose before 2009 will not prevent it from having to pay much higher interest rates now or from going bankrupt in the future.

[americandream]

Any risk of the US sliding into some inflationary fiat currency scenario would immediately rally the battalions to her aid, in defiance of what many appear to expect.

While your point is essentially valid, it overlooks the usefullness of the current inflationary scenario to the USA and the fact that the elites barely feel any pain from inflation; in fact they sit in glee waiting for deflationary effects to bring assets down.

Ok, the rest of the world is beholden to the $USD, the US machine of economic state.
This does not mean the rest of the world can prevent the US taking an inflationary monetary position.
It means they must allow the Fed to weaken the $USD at a pace of the choosing of the Fed.

I am sure you are correct that the world will not allow the US to fail until the elites themselves are impoverished; but inflation is as inevitable as dawn in this post peak oil world.

Not really. The picture is a mixed one with Fed created inflationary pressures from printing and imported deflationary pressures from offshoring and outsourcing. So as you see, the picture is not quite the same one it was when capitalism was somewhat more regional in its support mechanisms. Now you have the unbrideld valorisation of vastly underpriced global labour co-existing with inflationary regional QE. The offshored allies will tolerate this for as long as it takes the equation to balance the books. The Chinese will periodically make a variety of pronouncements as will the Europeans and the Russians. The Iranians are just noise as are the N Koreans and even the Cubans. As long as the process continues to draw value out its various elements, it works for the mutual benefit of the global elite.

This is a scam on a scale that beggars belief. To a large extent, both the left and right have fallen prey to this elite's lies and machinations, focussed as they are on outmoded thinking in a world that has long moved beyond nationalism and is rapidly approaching the point of no return as regards globalisation. No matter who rules any country, for the foreseeable future, THEY WILL NOT DELIVER as promised. Not Ron Paul, not Sarah Palin, not Obama as we have seen, nor the new European Far Right, or the isolationist Islamists. There will be no turning back this system, even were Hitler or Stalin to be resurrected. It must deliver its own coup de grace.

[truecougarblue]

Americandream said:

Any risk of the US sliding into some inflationary fiat currency scenario would immediately rally the battalions to her aid

I think you need to remember that for the elites to prosper the US population does not need to maintain the current standard of living. Why "rally" to save J6Ps pension? Why "rally" to keep the streets free of potholes or the water clean?

As has been stated before, the elites benefit from hyperinflation, they have no reason to stop it.

Any rallying would be to keep the US military machine gassed up and ready to protect the interests of TPTB.

[argyle]

the EU is in even worse shape...with country after country in the EU being cut-off from the global credit markets...

I doubt this. Look at the EU (as a whole) and the US numbers. Public dept, private dept, underwater mortages, dependency on cheap oil, trade balance, unemployment rate, rate of people that have no social security net left,...

We don't have to do our own complicated calculations of debt to see the US is better off than the EU right now. The folks in the bond market are doing all those calculations for us. Look at the interest rates for bond sales for various countries.

The bond market says Greece (EU) and Ireland (EU) are bankrupt, Portugal (EU) is mostly likely going bust, and Spain (EU), Belgium (EU), Italy (EU) and even France (EU) are at risk of going bust.

The bond market is making all those countries pay more for new loans than the US has to pay, ergo they are less credit worthy and more worse off.

If you compare the US to EU, you would need to compare the EU as a whole vs Federal US, and the seperate US states vs the countries of the EU, and citizen vs citizen?

How much debt does the EU government hold vs the Federal government of the States?
EU none? vs US?
How much debt do the seperate Countries of the EU hold, vs the seperate States?
Data about the EU countries is all well know, how about the US States (I believe the State with the biggest economy (California) is in trouble (that would equal to EU's Germany).
EU citizen vs US citizen?
Anyone got some data about debt and/or savings?

edit-> isn't the US (federal) around 90+% of GDP per year indebted (does this include the debt of all US states or just federal government?)?
I'm sure that all EU countries together this is lower then 90+%.

I believe, unless someone proves me wrong, that the EU is in fact in better shape then the US, with less debt, less unemployment (REAL vs the government numbers -> as you don't get scrapped of the list if you lose your unemployment benefits), better maintained infrastructure,. better social security net,...
US has better PR, a reserve currency (with printing presses doing overtime), and is able to put more international pressure.. (diplomatic and military force projection). US is however more flexible, and also "steers" the financial markets (for example: all rating agencies are US companies (hence the request for an EU based rating agency).
The main reason why EU banks got into trouble is because of these rating agencies that gave a high credit ranking to all those repackaged mortages products that were sold on the international markets, turned out to be "timebombs". There is/was no housing crisis in EU (except for maybe parts of Spain) of the same nature then there is in US. (number of foreclosures vs number of ppl?)

edit-> China is moving into buying less US debt, but moving in to buy more EU (like Spain) debt. If this is a good change long term, I'm not sure though (as I would not like to see countries that need severe austerity, get an 'free/easy' lunch via the Chinese and only delaying the crisis, and possibly making it worse down the line. If checked, it can mitigate some of the nastiest effects though.

Again, there is denial on both sides of the pond, and there will be enough severe austerity to go around.. We are 'both' in denial and instead of pointing to other states/countries/... and saying they are worse of (and thus hoping the "bad" guys trying to make money to focus on them (easier target), we should focus on getting our own house in order.. but pointing fingers is so much easier and popular :D

[americandream]

Americandream said:

Any risk of the US sliding into some inflationary fiat currency scenario would immediately rally the battalions to her aid

I think you need to remember that for the elites to prosper the US population does not need to maintain the current standard of living. Why "rally" to save J6Ps pension? Why "rally" to keep the streets free of potholes or the water clean?

As has been stated before, the elites benefit from hyperinflation, they have no reason to stop it.

Any rallying would be to keep the US military machine gassed up and ready to protect the interests of TPTB.

The markets turn on trust and confidence and the US is the market supremo in capitalism. Forget J6P for a minute (he just happens to be living within its borders but is persona non grata in the scheme of things) and consider the role played by territorial US in both benchmarking capital as well as extending it's value way beyond labours input, at secondary and tertiary levels of value creation. The US in essence is the hub of the global system of capital. There is no country quite capable of taking on the role of the US. The Europeans are not quite integrated enough to step into America's shoes and never will be. The UK meets some of that need but not on the same scale. Asia specialises in manufacturing but is a financial minnow. Africa and Latin America...no.

Were the US to be removed from the equation, global wealth would enter into a steep decline at a rate of knots that would see market liquidity evaporate in a flash.

[Revi]

The US is a place where the little guy can be eliminated. We don't get health care, nor do we get higher education. We just work for the man until it's time for us to be put out to pasture. Nowadays that's about 80 years old, after we've done our service as greeters at Wal Mart. Pretty much our whole paychecks go to feeding our oversized cars and underwater mortgaged houses. We don't have much of an alternative, but we do have 24 hour sports channels and radio talk shows.

How is it not going to collapse? It already has for a lot of people.

I give it a couple of years more, but I could be wrong.

[SeaGypsy]

Any risk of the US sliding into some inflationary fiat currency scenario would immediately rally the battalions to her aid, in defiance of what many appear to expect.

While your point is essentially valid, it overlooks the usefullness of the current inflationary scenario to the USA and the fact that the elites barely feel any pain from inflation; in fact they sit in glee waiting for deflationary effects to bring assets down.

Ok, the rest of the world is beholden to the $USD, the US machine of economic state.
This does not mean the rest of the world can prevent the US taking an inflationary monetary position.
It means they must allow the Fed to weaken the $USD at a pace of the choosing of the Fed.

I am sure you are correct that the world will not allow the US to fail until the elites themselves are impoverished; but inflation is as inevitable as dawn in this post peak oil world.

Not really. The picture is a mixed one with Fed created inflationary pressures from printing and imported deflationary pressures from offshoring and outsourcing. So as you see, the picture is not quite the same one it was when capitalism was somewhat more regional in its support mechanisms. Now you have the unbrideld valorisation of vastly underpriced global labour co-existing with inflationary regional QE. The offshored allies will tolerate this for as long as it takes the equation to balance the books. The Chinese will periodically make a variety of pronouncements as will the Europeans and the Russians. The Iranians are just noise as are the N Koreans and even the Cubans. As long as the process continues to draw value out its various elements, it works for the mutual benefit of the global elite.

This is a scam on a scale that beggars belief. To a large extent, both the left and right have fallen prey to this elite's lies and machinations, focussed as they are on outmoded thinking in a world that has long moved beyond nationalism and is rapidly approaching the point of no return as regards globalisation. No matter who rules any country, for the foreseeable future, THEY WILL NOT DELIVER as promised. Not Ron Paul, not Sarah Palin, not Obama as we have seen, nor the new European Far Right, or the isolationist Islamists. There will be no turning back this system, even were Hitler or Stalin to be resurrected. It must deliver its own coup de grace.

This gets my vote for your best summary yet AD, thank you.

[Repent]

On the way down to economic, political, and cultural doom, some funny things still happen in society. I saw this today on Max Keiser, China has banned reincarnation without a permit: http://www.youtube.com/user/MaxKeiserTV

I thought a new thread on the 'lighter side of collapse' might be in order. Share you're stories on the absurd things that happen on the way down!

[Newfie]

Well, for those with the ultimate doomstead (rapture) here is a way to assure our pets will be spared from the zombie hoards.

http://eternal-earthbound-pets.com/

Notice of Rate Increase: Due to the increased activity associated with the May 21, 2011 Rapture prophesy we have increased our service rates for all new contracts submitted as of 1/13/11.

You've committed your life to Jesus. You know you're saved. But when the Rapture comes what's to become of your loving pets who are left behind? Eternal Earth-Bound Pets takes that burden off your mind.

We are a group of dedicated animal lovers, and atheists. Each
Eternal Earth-Bound Pet representative is a confirmed atheist, and as such will still be here on Earth after you've received your reward. Our network of animal activists are committed to step in when you step up to Jesus.

We are currently active in 24 states. Our representatives have been screened to ensure that they are atheists, animal lovers, are moral / ethical with no criminal background, have the ability and desire to rescue your pet and the means to retrieve them and ensure their care for your pet's natural life.

We currently cover the following states:
Maine,New Hampshire, Vermont, Massachusetts, Connecticut, Rhode Island, Wisconsin, Minnesota, Michigan, Arkansas, Mississippi, Tennessee, Kentucky, Colorado, Oklahoma, Kansas, Washington, Oregon, Idaho, Montana, North Carolina, Georgia, Alabama and Ohio.

Our service is plain and simple; our fee structure is reasonable.
For $135.00 we will guarantee that should the Rapture occur within ten (10) years of receipt of payment, one pet per residence will be saved. Each additional pet at your residence will be saved for an additional $20.00 fee. A small price to pay for your peace of mind and the health and safety of your four legged and feathered friends.

Unfortunately at this time we are not equipped to accommodate all species and must limit our services to dogs, cats, birds, rabbits, and small caged mammals. [Please note: we can now offer rescue services for horses, camels, llamas and donkeys in NH,VT, ID and MT ]

Thank you for your interest in Eternal Earth-Bound Pets. We hope we can help provide you with peace of mind.

And, this is far from the only one. Google "pet rapture insurance"

[papa moose]

"Unfortunately at this time we are not equipped to accommodate all species and must limit our services to dogs, cats, birds, rabbits, and small caged mammals. "

This strikes me as an odd clause.
If they are "confirmed aethiests" then they don't believe there will ever be a rapture, so they are collecting money for a service they have no intention of ever performing (is this "trading in bad faith"? no pun intended!)

As they have no intention of actually providing this service why not accept money to never collect a rattle snake, $135 to never collect your pet elephant, seems quite reasonable.
Why are they limiting their earning potential to the gullible owners of cats/dogs/etc? What about good christian peoples with pet ferrets?

[Keith_McClary]

The archetype conception comprised created along educatees by the University of Riyadh, Saudi. It has acquired a few similarities on the Toyota FJ Cruise. The Gazal 1 itself is on the basis of the Mercedes-Benz G-Class are established and powered along a V8 engine. As we saw the archetype Gazal analyse design this year’s Geneva centrifugal Show, we believed the auto appeared jolly good, especially believing how the feel in the SUV architects to give life to a accomplished fomite had .
...
From what we can tell what it looks like the output adaptation identical close to the adult green model, we have already made in March. In other words, the top Toyota FJ Cruiser style accepts arrived at its agency into reality with the grid very international. Since its inception in March conception, the auto was burned to the cat valium output of King Abdullah. However, at that place are a few things that still stand in the way, such as financing. Based on a platform of Mercedes-Benz G-Wagon is the m-1 4.8 Gazal long and about 1.9 m wide, and adverted afterward a abandon deer, which evidently accepts grace and elegance in abrasive habitats.

[Newfie]

"Unfortunately at this time we are not equipped to accommodate all species and must limit our services to dogs, cats, birds, rabbits, and small caged mammals. "

This strikes me as an odd clause.
If they are "confirmed aethiests" then they don't believe there will ever be a rapture, so they are collecting money for a service they have no intention of ever performing (is this "trading in bad faith"? no pun intended!)
As they have no intention of actually providing this service why not accept money to never collect a rattle snake, $135 to never collect your pet elephant, seems quite reasonable.
Why are they limiting their earning potential to the gullible owners of cats/dogs/etc? What about good christian peoples with pet ferrets?

I don't write 'em, I just read 'em......................and laugh.

And I'm not getting into any serious arguments here on the "lighter side."

[Repent]

Ice cream now available made of human breast milk:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/lifeandstyle/ ... CMP=twt_fd

I showed this article to my wife, who's immediate responce was, 'What are the baby's going to drink? I some guy tried to force me to use my breast milk to make money for himself, when I was breastfeeding- he'd get what for!'

[Newfie]

Does drinking human breast milk make you a cannibal?

[anador]

I mean.... it is meant to be consumed by humans (babies) thats why we secrete the stuff.....

So cannibal, no.

Really bizzare?

Yes.

[Beery]

"Unfortunately at this time we are not equipped to accommodate all species and must limit our services to dogs, cats, birds, rabbits, and small caged mammals. "

This strikes me as an odd clause.
If they are "confirmed aethiests" then they don't believe there will ever be a rapture, so they are collecting money for a service they have no intention of ever performing...

The fact that they are confirmed atheists does not mean they have no intention of performing their duties. It just means they don't believe they'll ever have to. I'm sure that if they find the rapture happening, they'll do what they've committed to do.

You just need to have a little faith.