A Farm for the Future

[Ludi]

Whatever the hell that means. Who is "we" and who are the "masters"? Language like this is useless.

Pstarr is "on the land" as in he is a landowner and lives on his own land, so, by some reckoning, he is one of "the Masters."

But I'm a permacultural newbie also (only been studying it a decade, practicing less than that), so I probably don't understand the lingo. I don't recall seeing the term "The Masters" in my permie books, but it might be in some I haven't read (which would be a lot).



I'm not sure Pstarr is very interested in communicating much of the time, at least not with us here on the board. Hence the "you wouldn't understand" which is similar to the language vision-master uses. Maybe we need to consume more magical plants, or something, to be able to understand these concepts.

[SilentRunning]

I've been having a good time with my daughter going over my land and planning what to plant and where. We are going to be putting in an orchard in the spring. I have also been surveying our woodlands, and figuring out what to harvest in order to encourage long term sustainable maple sugar production as well as a revitalized old growth forest. It gives me a good feeling that I am starting something that will very likely benefit my children and future generations - and that both my kids are interested in seeing it succeed.

Yes, but the doomer in me says "best laid plans of mice and men often go astray".

It's easy to say you'll impress the same value system on your kids that you have, but it's the nature of kids growing up to rebel. You know, one generation is a strict catholic, the next is a stripper, the one after that is a strict catholic. You do the opposite for the sake of being different.

That's why I say the human element is the weakest link. If we were all 2,000 year old elves tending to Rivendell, that's one thing, but keeping a family food forest going generation after generation, especially into the chaotic future we're facing in the 21st century and beyond, well, that's gonna be really hard.

Considering the way my daughter is growing up, I can't even count on her to continue whatever I start. These things just are not directly in your control.

MY kids are in their mid 20s and we've been through the normal teen rebellion phase. I was deeply impressed with my daughter when she started her own garden on a plot of land owned by a friend. I had not even talked to her about peak oil and my own plans - but after I saw that she was prepping on her own, we had some great conversations.

I understand that times may be very hard ahead - but without some sort of long term vision I don't see any chance for success.

[Ludi]

I understand that times may be very hard ahead - but without some sort of long term vision I don't see any chance for success.

Do you mean a long term vision for yourself and your family? Or do you mean a sort of vision for the world which will be imposed on other people somehow? Or are you saying if any given person doesn't have a long term vision they are not likely to successfully survive?

Just wanting a little clarification. Thanks.

[pstarr]

we allowed the Masters to force us off the land.

Whatever the hell that means. Who is "we" and who are the "masters"? Language like this is useless.

I am glad you asked, because you probably wouldn't understand. You are only a permacultural newbie

Original permaculture was about perennial crops. Then it changed to include zoning etc. Also, your response to mos's question doesn't actually answer his question.

I didn't have the time and the answer is involved. I'll start. We know that hunter-gatherers did have leisure time. I am not an anarcho-primitivist (at least I don't think so) and I will not to idealize Ludditism. But common sense and a detached mind will tell you that a burning through our planet, fossil fuels, and the atmosphere for 9 hours employment/commute, another 2/3 for home/house/family work, and endless traffic jams for entertainment/visiting is not necessary. Something is wrong. What is that?

What is the point of "permaculture?" Is it to raise organic healthy food, to farm sustainably/lightly on the earth, reduce C02 emissions, to free the practitioner from drudgery? Is it for food security, freedom, independence, novelty, attitude, to be part of a movement? I don't know. You tell me. What is the point?

I do know this: I love to be with the earth, part of living systems, close to nature, in ecologic balance with my surroundings. We have agricultural tools, appropriate technology, smart machines, micro-manufacturing, solar energy to free us to live in our communities without the car culture. I love museums and fine art and food, but I hate the striving in cities. We need balance and I have it in my little corner of the planet. It barely existed in the numerous cities and suburbs I lived in. Why? Follow the money. Who benefits? I would say it is the folks who own the timberlands, the mines, the industrial farms, the giant processing plants, the factories.

How did this happen? The paleolithic revolution, the Enclosure Act, the fencing of the rangelands. Concentration of power. Ownership of grains. Standing armies. Cowered populace. I could go on and on.

Here is a good place to start: The Story of Your Enslavement

Was that a start?

[mos6507]

Something is wrong. What is that?

This good enough for ya?

How about this?



I got it. It's someone else's fault. It's always someone else's fault.

Who benefits? I would say it is the folks who own the timberlands, the mines, the industrial farms, the giant processing plants, the factories.

What's the end goal of all that production? Takes two to tango.

How did this happen? The paleolithic revolution, the Enclosure Act, the fencing of the rangelands. Concentration of power. Ownership of grains. Standing armies. Cowered populace. I could go on and on.

Let me guess. Evil people who aren't part of your definition of "we"? They aren't really human, right? None of the greed that drove them is a part of "we"? They were born evil, right?

I'm waiting for you to pull a ReverseEngineer here and call for the "death of the pigmen".

Was that a start?

I'd say it's just an attempt to divide humanity into two camps in order to absolve yourself of personal responsibility for perpetuating BAU. We're all brainwashed victims led into our McMansions and SUVs by the banksters and the corporatists. Oh, poor us, the downtrodden masses. How can we be expected to express freewill when those Big Macs taste soo good? Our victimhood is predecided. That is, unless we're lucky enough to live behind the "redwood curtain", in which case we can whine about how downtrodden "we" are from the perch of a bucolic sanctuary.

Sorry, man, I stand by this graphic.

[Ludi]

Sorry, man, I stand by this graphic.

Yep, we're back to our own little private parts.

[pstarr]

This good enough for ya?

Did you read your wiki reference? Have you bothered to investigate Hardin's claim? Obviously not. The Tragedy of the Commons is a myth and there are endless examples of complex societies living in harmony with their ecologies. My favorite example was/is Bali. You know there is a simple solution to the problem of the commons: self/government regulation. It actually works just outside Boston, the lobster fishery is a well-managed commons.

. . . the rest of your ugly rant

Let me see if can paraphrase your shitty little rant.

--Mos: "Humans are all bad, they are greedy and will steal everyone and everything in their commons blind." Rebuttal: I am not shitty and I have not stolen anyone blind.

--Mos: "By shopping we are all responsible for the shittyness around us." You post a Walmart graphic. Rebuttal: some are less responsible, others more. Shades of gray. Some shopping is better than other shopping. I buy organic, Fair Trade. (You want to change the subject and call me effete? Great have fun. Have a distraction)

--Mos: "Corporations are us, therefore we are evil." Rebuttal: No corporations are not us. Rather they are entities under specific edits engineered by greedy corrupt individuals at particular moments in history. Yes, we are lazy for allowing their mandates to outlive their usefulness. But they are not me.

--Mos: (this is my favorite)"I'd say it's just an attempt to divide humanity into two camps in order to absolve yourself of personal responsibility for perpetuating BAU. We're all brainwashed victims led into our McMansions and SUVs by the banksters and the corporatists. Oh, poor us, the downtrodden masses." Rebuttal: You have me confused with someone else. I have spent a lifetime in professional sustainable development. I know who is wrong.

[pstarr]

Whatever the hell that means. Who is "we" and who are the "masters"? Language like this is useless.

Pstarr is "on the land" as in he is a landowner and lives on his own land, so, by some reckoning, he is one of "the Masters."

But I'm a permacultural newbie also (only been studying it a decade, practicing less than that), so I probably don't understand the lingo. I don't recall seeing the term "The Masters" in my permie books, but it might be in some I haven't read (which would be a lot).

Yeah. That's me, the Master.

I am blessed to own a measly little 2 1/2 acres that I am making the best of. I guess I should be guilty for that? Maybe I will sell it and move into a swanky loft in Brooklyn. Whaddya want, huh?

I'm not sure Pstarr is very interested in communicating much of the time, at least not with us here on the board. Hence the "you wouldn't understand" which is similar to the language vision-master uses. Maybe we need to consume more magical plants, or something, to be able to understand these concepts.

Ok. Permaculture is great. A nice way to garden. But it is not high concept. It is not a "solution" for anything. If it is gonna help you grow your broccoli, or bananas, or some tropical wonder-fruit, then don't let me stand in your way. Okay?

Here is my problem. I doubt that among the hundreds of people that frequent this board few have enough land to grow anything more than a weekly salad. Trust me on that. I have tried for several decades. No amount of permacultural "study" or "theory" or even the right "paradigm" is going to grow anyone's food on their patio or postage-sized suburban lot. Sorry. No go.

What annoys me is this: there is this cute mostly unstated assumption that it is a wonderous new radical innovation that will save the world. Wrongoooooooo! Hey. Invest in a small rototiller, burn a little oil, get your hands dirty and have a ball. You can even grab a couple of units of natural solar-based vitamin D3 for cancer prevention.

Sorry I tread on the permie religion

[Narz]

Thanks Ludi, finally got around to watching the movie.

All seems so distant for me though living in a suburban apartment complex which I'll be moving out of in May, my significant other thinks she'll be getting a job in Brooklyn (speaking of Brooklyn) soon so she wants to move there (how we can afford it I'm not sure, we'll probably have to co-habit, which is fine with me as long as I can get my own room for a change). I don't really want to move to Brooklyn but I don't want to abandon my daughter either.

[mos6507]

The Tragedy of the Commons is a myth

BS. What kind of world do you think we're living in?

and there are endless examples of complex societies living in harmony with their ecologies.

Considering that we're entering a mass extinction event of our own making, your "countless examples" don't amount to squat. The jury's coming in on homo sapiens, sir. What our theoretical capabilities are don't matter. What our aggregate demonstrative behavior is doing, that's what matters.

You know there is a simple solution

There is no simple solution otherwise it would have happened already. Whenever anybody throws out phrases like that, I know they are full of sh*t. Forgive me for having a short-fuse, but I'm just burnt out on all this simplification that some people have, where they have "THE SOLUTION"(TM). There is no simple solution because people don't all get together and march in time, and that's what we'd need to stop this train-wreck, a global epiphany, basically.

they are entities under specific edits engineered by greedy corrupt individuals

Greedy individuals are "us" if you want to step back and look at homo sapiens. They are not a separate species. They are not subhumans. They are not sociopaths. They are US. You read The Oil Drum, don't you? The psychological angle has been explored quite thoroughly by Nate. It's not so easy to just brush aside.

You have me confused with someone else. I have spent a lifetime in professional sustainable development. I know who is wrong.

I thought you were talking about WE? Now you're talking about I (meaning you, the individual). If you want to talk about where humanity is headed, your anecdotal situation is meaningless. We're talking about the aggregate impact of humanity. If you're some higher being, and 99% of the rest of us are not, who gives a rat's ass? So you can stop feeling guilty for the planet dying? Big deal.

[mos6507]

What annoys me is this: there is this cute mostly unstated assumption that it is a wonderous new radical innovation that will save the world.

Wasn't it last year or so you said the only reason you were here was for sh*ts and giggles? Then why all this talk about solutions (aka death to the pigmen) and non-solutions (permaculture)?

[Ludi]

My main problem with solutions like permaculture is they are not being implemented much. Of course they are less likely to be implemented if people make it their business to go around saying how useless they are, etc etc as Pstarr does in every conversation about permaculture. I'm not sure why it's so important for him to do this, but it is, apparently. A fun hobby, I guess.

[Ludi]

Thanks Ludi, finally got around to watching the movie.

All seems so distant for me though living in a suburban apartment complex which I'll be moving out of in May, my significant other thinks she'll be getting a job in Brooklyn (speaking of Brooklyn) soon so she wants to move there (how we can afford it I'm not sure, we'll probably have to co-habit, which is fine with me as long as I can get my own room for a change). I don't really want to move to Brooklyn but I don't want to abandon my daughter either.

Yeah, it's definitely a problem for city-dwellers, because it's hard to overcome the limitations of being in the city and not having your own yard. And with most of the population living in cities, permaculture seems an unreachable goal. But people who really want to do this manage to get together with other people and form community gardens. There's a lot of "waste" space in many cities (not so much around NYC) that could be turned to growing areas.

http://www.communitygarden.org/learn/st ... garden.php

[pstarr]

The Tragedy of the Commons is a myth

BS. What kind of world do you think we're living in?

Hardin's thesis was not supported, in fact it was a gross misrepresentation of historical and human behavioral fact. It is useful propaganda repeated endlessly and usefully within a highly competitive capitalist paradigm The Myth of the Tragedy of the Commons.

For another perspective, this is what we have learned in recent years from animals studies.

The biological truth is that man is hot-wired by nature through acquired evolutionary behavior and psychology for altruism. It was once argued that altruism was only relevant applied to immediate relations i.e. genes for altruism could only be selected by parents for children (or visa versa)

It is now known (through mathematical analysis of "inclusive" genetic fitness) that group selection conveys that trait among larger social units ensuring social unity, common defense and compact

Love always was the reason for the season.

and there are endless examples of complex societies living in harmony with their ecologies.

Considering that we're entering a mass extinction event of our own making, your "countless examples" don't amount to squat. The jury's coming in on homo sapiens, sir. What our theoretical capabilities are don't matter. What our aggregate demonstrative behavior is doing, that's what matters.

We are complex entities, there is no "aggregate." There are only individual actions and personal responsibility. People have faced uncertain and evil times before, ultimately rising to the occasion. What is ultimately important however is human nature, as recently revealed by ethology, the study human-primate behavior. Yes there is mob rule at times, people can be weak and will follow alpha males, and people are genetically predisposed to search for chaos (see behavior of certain songbirds and squirrels--they are attracted to loud noises in the woods)---that is a paleoithic behavioral trait of a predatory scavenger.

We have at times cooperated for the common good, as we have receded into personal fear and prejudice. It is our choice, your hysteria notwithstanding. You sound like a doomer.

You know there is a simple solution

There is no simple solution otherwise it would have happened already. Whenever anybody throws out phrases like that, I know they are full of sh*t. Forgive me for having a short-fuse, but I'm just burnt out on all this simplification that some people have, where they have "THE SOLUTION"(TM). There is no simple solution because people don't all get together and march in time, and that's what we'd need to stop this train-wreck, a global epiphany, basically.

You do have a short fuse. You are often "burnt out". You need to see the humor in our existance. Yes. I misspoke. There are no simple solutions.

they are entities under specific edits engineered by greedy corrupt individuals

Greedy individuals are "us" if you want to step back and look at homo sapiens. They are not a separate species. They are not subhumans. They are not sociopaths. They are US. You read The Oil Drum, don't you? The psychological angle has been explored quite thoroughly by Nate. It's not so easy to just brush aside.

No. Greedy individuals are not "us" I can give you countless examples of sacrifice. Perhaps Nate knows squat?

More important, I was specifically talking about corporate law and the hijack of our democracy. You need to investigate the history of corporate legal history, start with Santa Clara County v. Southern Pacific Railroad, 118 U.S. 394A series of corrupt supreme and lower court decisions granted corporations rights that were intended by the 14th amendment for freed slaves. Previously corporations were created (and dissolved) under very limited charters (originally for short durations) to do the bidding of the commonweath.

You have me confused with someone else. I have spent a lifetime in professional sustainable development. I know who is wrong.

I thought you were talking about WE? Now you're talking about I (meaning you, the individual). If you want to talk about where humanity is headed, your anecdotal situation is meaningless. We're talking about the aggregate impact of humanity. If you're some higher being, and 99% of the rest of us are not, who gives a rat's ass? So you can stop feeling guilty for the planet dying? Big deal.

Yes me. One exception disproves the rule.

[pstarr]

Ludi, you accused me of bad communication. You were right.

After 15 years without my own garden, I finally have one again. The best ever. I moved in to my new home a year ago and I already built a garden shed, am now putting in a 12x20 greenhouse, and next is the chicken coop.

When I started at PO.com I was living cooperatively in a cohousing community and the garden situation sucked. Too much wind off the Pacific, bad politics, crappy clay soil, not enough good garden space (others wanted it for a frickin' frisbee field ) Now I am happy again I guess I was jealous. Bad.