The Bloom Box: An Energy Breakthrough?

[Texas_T]

I say that they should be mandated for every landfill in the country.

that is precisely where Bloom belongs. In a landfill, for distracting the populace from real problems and offering fake solutions. These greedy faux capitalists should be ashamed.

Energy is a real problem. Bloom can take methane from whatever source and convert it into electricity. This is certainly a good thing, particularly considering the amount of methane created by the average landfill, which would otherwise contribute to global warming scenarios.

Turn it into electricity instead, and run the transport system. Not a distraction at all.

Most larger landfills already have a system in place to use the methane, either to generate electricity on site (typically using engines) or the methane is piped to a local industrial or institutional facility. I was involved in a project where landfill gas was piped two miles to a correctional facility to fire the central heating plant.

[pstarr]

Most larger landfills already have a system in place to use the methane, either to generate electricity on site (typically using engines) or the methane is piped to a local industrial or institutional facility. I was involved in a project where landfill gas was piped two miles to a correctional facility to fire the central heating plant.

I do believe you have overstated your case. I not aware of a landfill methane extraction systems that actually supplies an end-user consumer product at a cost less than production. So these systems are not fossil-fuel replacements, but rather AGW mitigations. There just is not the concentration of gases to justify the expensive underground collection system.

[Texas_T]

Most larger landfills already have a system in place to use the methane, either to generate electricity on site (typically using engines) or the methane is piped to a local industrial or institutional facility. I was involved in a project where landfill gas was piped two miles to a correctional facility to fire the central heating plant.

I do believe you have overstated your case. I not aware of a landfill methane extraction systems that actually supplies an end-user consumer product at a cost less than production. So these systems are not fossil-fuel replacements, but rather AGW mitigations. There just is not the concentration of gases to justify the expensive underground collection system.

You can believe whatever you want...but I have seen many landfill gas collection/cogeneration systems installed over the last 25 years that were done strictly based on the economics of the systems. If the financial payback was not there then these systems would not have been built. BMW in South Carolina would be one example but there are many others.

I am not sure what you mean by "an end-user consumer product at a cost less than production". LFG systems take a waste gas and use it either to generate electricity and pump it into the grid (displacing conventially generated electricity) or to displace the use of natural gas in boiler systems.

[pstarr]

Most larger landfills already have a system in place to use the methane, either to generate electricity on site (typically using engines) or the methane is piped to a local industrial or institutional facility. I was involved in a project where landfill gas was piped two miles to a correctional facility to fire the central heating plant.

I do believe you have overstated your case. I not aware of a landfill methane extraction systems that actually supplies an end-user consumer product at a cost less than production. So these systems are not fossil-fuel replacements, but rather AGW mitigations. There just is not the concentration of gases to justify the expensive underground collection system.

You can believe whatever you want...but I have seen many landfill gas collection/cogeneration systems installed over the last 25 years that were done strictly based on the economics of the systems. If the financial payback was not there then these systems would not have been built. BMW in South Carolina would be one example but there are many others.

I am not sure what you mean by "an end-user consumer product at a cost less than production". LFG systems take a waste gas and use it either to generate electricity and pump it into the grid (displacing conventially generated electricity) or to displace the use of natural gas in boiler systems.

You state above that the systems were installed "strictly based on the economics of the system" yet you claim not to understand what I mean by "at a cost less than production."

I am asking you to justify the development, construction/installation, maintenance, and operation of a landfill methane energy collection system by any measure. Can you show that the systems generates more energy than is embodied in the construction of the system; i.e. does it have a positive EROEI? Or are you able to prove that the costs of the entire system amortized and depreciated over time is less than the replacement value of the gas produced? Either will do.

[Texas_T]

Many of the LFG systems that I have seen installed were implemented as part of energy savings performance contracts. Typical simple payback requirements for these projects are in the seven to ten year range. Therefore the construction cost of the system divided by the net annual income stream (annual dollar value of natural gas displaced by landfill gas minus annual operation and maintenance costs for the LFG system) would be in the range of seven to ten years.

Other LFG systems have been installed directly by end users (and example would be Ford Motor Company). Typically industrial users have somewhat more stringent simple payback requirements.

[DoomersUnite]

I not aware ....

me not aware toos......

[DoomersUnite]

Many of the LFG systems that I have seen installed were implemented as part of energy savings performance contracts. Typical simple payback requirements for these projects are in the seven to ten year range. Therefore the construction cost of the system divided by the net annual income stream (annual dollar value of natural gas displaced by landfill gas minus annual operation and maintenance costs for the LFG system) would be in the range of seven to ten years.

Other LFG systems have been installed directly by end users (and example would be Ford Motor Company). Typically industrial users have somewhat more stringent simple payback requirements.

Thanks Texas_T. Its nice to have people around with direct experience with these types of systems. Until someone with direct experience gets involved, you can see what passes for knowledge among the average poster types. I hadn't realized methane capture was in such widespread use already, here I figured that Bloom boxes could corner the market in yet another obvious use for them.

[Texas_T]

I'm not really familiar with the Bloom device except to know that (as far as I know) its a fuel cell. Who knows, the Bloom device may open up more applications for LFG recovery. But to do so it would have to be less expensive to install than the engines that are typically used (an existing well proven technology) or it must offer some other clear advantage. My admittedly limited experience in looking at fuel cell applications would lead me to believe that it would not, unless Bloom has some new breakthrough technology.

[DoomersUnite]

I'm not really familiar with the Bloom device except to know that (as far as I know) its a fuel cell.

Thats about it. Dump in the methane, from whatever source, and it makes electricity. Scalable enough to run something small, like an electric scooter, or an entire building. I think they were using them to run some significant fraction of ebays California operations.

Who knows, the Bloom device may open up more applications for LFG recovery. But to do so it would have to be less expensive to install than the engines that are typically used (an existing well proven technology) or it must offer some other clear advantage. My admittedly limited experience in looking at fuel cell applications would lead me to believe that it would not, unless Bloom has some new breakthrough technology.

The problem Bloom admitted to during his 60 minutes interview a year or two back was cost competitiveness. He needed a subsidy to make it work. Fortunately, California in its infinite wisdom and requirements for "clean" electricity" has provided just that for him.

But California electricity prices are pretty high compared to the rest of the US, if I recall my electric stats correctly. Besides lining the pockets of politicians who don't know enough about power generation to spot snakes like the Enron gang, I'm guessing huge chunks of this type of consumer fleecing go to the regulatory environment in California.

[pstarr]

You two cornies are still dumb even after the wet love-fest. I will ask the essential question one more time before I report you two the guidance counselor: can a LFG operation supply an end-user consumer product at a cost less than production? That is all that counts in the content of peak oil. Is there energy left over after the extraction and processing phase to drive Mom, the kids, the dog and SUV to the mall?

I'll bet the answer is no.