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California Approves cap and trade regulation

How to save energy through both societal and individual actions.

California Approves cap and trade regulation

Unread postby anador » Fri 17 Dec 2010, 16:26:35

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-12016137

I don't understand why republicans are so against this. They continually argue that conservation only has a place if it contributes to market competition.
This is merely an apparatus that allows competition to occur by opening new markets.

It allows entrepreneurs to open new efficient companies and gives incentive to change your behaviour.

The state has indicate by vote that it finds high carbon industries to be a nuisance and so has voted to essentially penalize people who don't make their companies less of a nuisance, and reward with incentives those that do.

Its the same thing as a government policy that fines companies who violate a clean water regulation, and rewarding with grants and tax breaks a company that goes above and beyond.

Except this allows the market to regulate the fines and incentives rather than the government itself.

If anything it seems like the most capital competition friendly, low government intrusion way of incentivizing proper behaviour.

Im sure these same type of people battled the regulations that forced factories to stop dumping chemicals in residential neighbourhoods and pouring chemical smoke into the town.

I just don't see how this is tax when the government doesn't seem to be making money from it, but other independent companies are. Actually seems pro-business in that lots o smaller companies probably hire more people than one fordist operation.
@#$% highways
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Re: California Approves cap and trade regulation

Unread postby Cloud9 » Sat 18 Dec 2010, 09:21:48

California is a failed state. You cannot pay your bills. You just raised the cost of your own energy in a peak oil world.
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Re: California Approves cap and trade regulation

Unread postby vision-master » Sat 18 Dec 2010, 09:52:41

Cap an Trade is nothing more than a spin on the Global Warming fraud.
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Re: California Approves cap and trade regulation

Unread postby Cloud9 » Sat 18 Dec 2010, 10:25:12

Arguing about the weather is like spitting in the wind. The climate has routinely heated up and cooled down for billions of years. The assumption that a bill passed in California will affect global climate is the epitome of egotism and hubris. California is not going to be able to regulate the burning of fossil fuels in China and India. What they are going to be able to do is pass some feel good regulation, raise the cost of living in their state, :badgrin: heighten their poverty level and then rush to the federal government with their hands out expecting my tax dollars to backstop their stupidity. You just bought Al Gore another villa.
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Re: California Approves cap and trade regulation

Unread postby Frank » Fri 07 Jan 2011, 10:22:53

...here we go again!

Good on 'em - if anyone thinks that energy is going to cost less in the future then they are truly delusional. We might as well try to structure behavior towards favorable outcomes. And as California goes, so goes America. Also, while China does burn a lot of coal they are making massive investments in renewable energy - and are dominating world markets because of it. A missed opportunity for us. I don't know about India but their leaders are no less astute than the Chinese: they are scientists and engineers, not lawyers.

As far as global warming, it is certainly true that the earth undergoes natural heating/cooling cycles. The difference is that they typically happen over a much longer time period. Anyone who thinks that we can dump millions of years of sequestered carbon into the atmosphere over a 200 year period and not have a significant impact is also delusional.
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Re: California Approves cap and trade regulation

Unread postby vision-master » Fri 07 Jan 2011, 11:08:35

The difference is that they typically happen over a much longer time period. Anyone who thinks that we can dump millions of years of sequestered carbon into the atmosphere over a 200 year period and not have a significant impact is also delusional.


What you just said is nothing more than conjecture.

conjecture is a proposition that is unproven but appears correct and has not been disproven.
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Re: California Approves cap and trade regulation

Unread postby scas » Fri 07 Jan 2011, 12:26:10

Cap n Trade is a step in the wrong direction. I like Jim Hansens idea better. Tax carbon directly and provide rebates to the poor.

As far as those who say human aren't the cause of the present warming - I find that they often haven't even tried to find out truthful information. Why go to the library or book store and read any of the many books by field professors, when the blogosphere provides everything they like to hear?
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Re: California Approves cap and trade regulation

Unread postby vision-master » Fri 07 Jan 2011, 13:08:19

As far as those who say human aren't the cause of the present warming - I find that they often haven't even tried to find out truthful information.


More conjecture.

What do Astrophysics have to say?
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Re: California Approves cap and trade regulation

Unread postby scas » Fri 07 Jan 2011, 13:18:28

Why don't you tell me what Astrophysics has to say?

What do paleontologists have to say?
What do ecologists have to say?
What does the director for NASA Goddard Institute for Space Studies say?
What do anthropologists have to say?
What did Carl Sagan have to say?
What do Earth and Space scientists have to say?

How many books have you actually read on the topic?
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Re: California Approves cap and trade regulation

Unread postby vision-master » Fri 07 Jan 2011, 13:25:01

Next you are going to do a beat-down on me about Darwin and his silly theory. :lol:

I swear, you all follow the same Cult.

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Re: California Approves cap and trade regulation

Unread postby scas » Fri 07 Jan 2011, 13:36:12

You're not even trying anymore.
Why post coherent paragraphs when one can just attach a graph?

It is clear now that you have not tried to educate yourself, or have done so selectively. Let me recommend a few books. There are many more.

The Weather Makers - Time Flannery - Former Harvard Prof
Revenge of Gaia - James Lovelock
The Vanishing Face of Gaia - James Lovelock
Under a Green Sky - Peter Ward - Prof of Biology, Earth, and Space at Washington Uni
Storms of my Grandchildren - James Hansen - NASA
Forecast - Stephan Faris
The Great Warming - Brian Fagan - Emeritus Anthropology California Uni

I swear you all follow the same cult.
Last edited by scas on Fri 07 Jan 2011, 13:42:17, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: California Approves cap and trade regulation

Unread postby vision-master » Fri 07 Jan 2011, 13:40:35

Sorry, I don't drink that brand of tea.

Maybe I should read up about all the crap mainstream egyptologists have written too. Like how the pyramids were built with simple hand tools and built by slaves. :badgrin:
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Re: California Approves cap and trade regulation

Unread postby scas » Fri 07 Jan 2011, 13:46:29

Everyone has the right to be a contrarian, regardless of validity.

Me, I read the junk science and the good stuff. Then see which is more logical.

It's probably better than you don't read any of those books I recommend. I wouldn't want your cognitive dissonance to get worse. If someday you are proven right, and it's all a fraud, I will be damn happy. But that's a pipe dream.
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Re: California Approves cap and trade regulation

Unread postby vision-master » Fri 07 Jan 2011, 14:04:29

So why dismiss other possiblities. Cap and trade is a money maker for the elites, no?

Don't you think this is a nice way for the 'elites' to make even more money off us plebs?

Ok, we are gonna hit peakoil, hey I know, let's cook up 'Global Warming' and then convince the masses cap an trade is a good thing. We can then fleece the sheeple without them complaining to much bc oil production is going to decrease a bunch in the following years anyways? :lol:

It's alway's about the money.

Free energy? No way ray. Not until the whole house of cards falls down.
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Re: California Approves cap and trade regulation

Unread postby scas » Fri 07 Jan 2011, 14:10:30

Cap n trade is a money making scheme - you are correct. At least we can agree on one thing.

It also allows the uneducated masses to believe something is being done about climate change, while continuing with the status quo.

Global warming is the second half of the chemical reaction of oxidizing fossil carbons. Or a great conspiracy in some peoples minds. It's not even necessary to make up such a hoax to reduce oil usage - the vast majority of people care little about peak oil and believe it will last their lifetimes.

Free energy is in fusion. Science will get us there, not ancient aliens.
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Re: California Approves cap and trade regulation

Unread postby Fishman » Fri 07 Jan 2011, 14:27:25

Anador
Lets take just a few of your statements and look at how they contradict themselves

California (first problem, failed financial state) Approves Cap and Trade Regulation

I don't understand why republicans are so against this. (They want to create jobs, not kill them or grow the government) ..
This is merely an apparatus that allows competition to occur by opening new markets.(No it doesn't)

It allows entrepreneurs to open new efficient companies (so why don't they open them themselves if they are so efficient?) and gives incentive to change your behaviour (at great jobkilling cost)

The state has indicate by vote that it finds high carbon industries to be a nuisance (so they ship the carbon production/energy production out of state along with jobs) and so has voted to essentially penalize people (itself) who don't make their companies less of a nuisance, and reward with incentives those that do (and move their "bad"jobs out of state/country)

Anador, its a failed state, deep in debt, jobs leaving like mad, because of regulation like this one. What part of this do you not understand?
Obama, the FUBAR presidency's second term
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Re: California Approves cap and trade regulation

Unread postby crude_intentions » Fri 07 Jan 2011, 16:10:30

Reality is merely an illusion, albeit a very persistent one.
- Albert Einstein
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Re: California Approves cap and trade regulation

Unread postby Frank » Sat 08 Jan 2011, 13:10:37

scas wrote:Cap n Trade is a step in the wrong direction. I like Jim Hansens idea better. Tax carbon directly and provide rebates to the poor.


I agree. Look up "Carbon Limits and Energy for American Renewal (CLEAR) Act" by Senators Collins and Cantwell. I hope it gets some legs in this session of Congress.

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I suppose melting glaciers don't mean anything vision-master?
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