Natural Gas Vehicles

[pstarr]

Can you guys please stop with the childish taunts and insults and start discussing your differences like rational adults?

Since Xeno/Shorty is incapable of debating essential intrinsic limitations of the natural-gas vehicle paradigm (one might refer to these as externalities. Or perhaps collateral insufficiency) then why don't you? It seems that Xeno/Shorty would rather delegate.

How would you create the necessary NG infrastructure for all regional transport, and not just urban areas currently supplied with dense NG supply lines? What is your solution to the costly energy overhead required to compress and recompress NG during fillups and for remote transport? It seems this is an unsurmountable problem. The Xeno/Shorty/Troll refuses to address these questions, except to post JPG's of bankrupt home compressors that never made it (and never will make it) to the consumer/end-user market. Any ideas?

[pstarr]

Can you guys please stop with the childish taunts and insults and start discussing your differences like rational adults?

Of course I can. But you must admit, it can be difficult when someone calls you a liar in every other post, or a Republican, deleted

You are a liar, the worst kind who can't even take responsibilities for past lies. You know very well that the Honda compressor JPG you just posted today (on this, or an associated thread) never went into production, was sold by Honda, and then was discontinued. You also know why the NG compression product failed---because it is insufficient and dangerous. I already explained that a high-pressure (5,000 psi) compressor from Ingersoll Rand starts at $100,000 and is much to expensive for a consumer market, much less a normal gas station.

You constant humiliation has nothing to do with your AGW/Evolution denying agenda. And stop whining that everybody hates you. Only I do.

[Xenophobe]

How would you create the necessary NG infrastructure for all regional transport, and not just urban areas currently supplied with dense NG supply lines?

There are 300,000 miles of natural gas pipeline in the US. Got some leading right up to the corner of my house. I don't have to create anything, especially for the millions of American homes which heat them with natural gas. Go...we start with those millions, and work on the rest next decade? Sound fair?

Any ideas?

Just listed one. deleted.

[pstarr]

How would you create the necessary NG infrastructure for all regional transport, and not just urban areas currently supplied with dense NG supply lines?

There are 300,000 miles of natural gas pipeline in the US. Got some leading right up to the corner of my house.

My house. My house. My house.

Many, most of those are supply/collection and not delivery lines. There is a world outside you Basement Command Center. A world where pipelines do not run along rural interstates. A world where pipelines do not run to farms and other REAL PLACES. deleted

[Xenophobe]

There are 300,000 miles of natural gas pipeline in the US. Got some leading right up to the corner of my house.

My house. My house. My house.

Well, lets just try this then. NG pipelines in America. Go add up all the people who live near one. Want to bet some significant majority of this countries population lives within, say 50 miles of one? These are just the big ones by the way. Certainly the ones I laid down some years ago aren't even on this map.

http://www.eia.doe.gov/pub/oil_gas/natu ... es_map.jpg

Fortunately, for those who don't or can't use cheap and clean and plentiful natural gas, we have plenty of crude left for them to use, or can make it from that same natural gas.

[KingM]

I guess the answer is no, you guys can't discuss the issues like rational adults, but must insist on insulting, name calling, etc.

[pstarr]

I guess the answer is no, you guys can't discuss the issues like rational adults, but must insist on insulting, name calling, etc.

I challenged you to respond to the issues I brought up. But you defer to name calling (accusing me of not being a rational adult) rather than addressing necessary conditions. I will make it simple for you.

What has/will change(d) in the transport environment in the US, such that natural gas vehicles become possible/acceptable to the driving public? Simple question. There remains virtually no market penetration here. Why?

It should be obvious that historically high oil prices have not jump-started the NT automobile revolution. I don't expect compressor technology to change, certainly there are not game-changing new designs on the drawing board. Natural-gas ICE conversions are not new and never caught on. Natural gas prices are a historical normal levels. What has or will change such that NG vehicles replace liquid fuel vehicles?

I on the other hand listed all the reasons why NG vehicles have never entered the consumer market in the US and I showed how there is little effort to address the underlying limits to that market penetration. No one has countered my arguments. here. much. less. you. or xeno.

[Xenophobe]

I will make it simple for you.

What has/will change(d) in the transport environment in the US, such that natural gas vehicles become possible/acceptable to the driving public? Simple question. There remains virtually no market penetration here. Why?

The price of gasoline and diesel remains too low.

[KingM]

No one has countered my arguments. here. much. less. you. or xeno.

I'm not trying to counter anyone's arguments. I don't think I have enough information on the subject, which is one of the reasons I'm reading this thread. I just want people to have a rational discussion instead of letting the thread degenerate. I don't think that's too much to ask.

[Xenophobe]

I just want people to have a rational discussion instead of letting the thread degenerate. I don't think that's too much to ask.

Completely reasonable.

So, here is the uptake on CNG transport. It is used on all sorts of mass transit, it's used in certain types of hybrid mass transit (saw a few in Vegas a couple months back), you can buy a CNG powered Honda Civic in America without too much trouble, and T. B. Pickens, for all his peak oil failings, seems to recognize that with as much natural gas as America has, it might be a reasonable idea to use some for transport, rather than paying foreign powers to send us ever more costly crude.

I, like millions of other Americans who heat our homes with the stuff, are a few joints of 1" line pipe and a small compressor in the garage from being able to fuel these things right at home. With hundreds of thousands of miles of pipelines ready to go, infrastructure certainly isn't any trouble.

The rub, as usual, is in those who certainly aren't about to change unless someone, or something, makes them, or there are incentives. The incentive business seems to work much better for anything EV rather than CNG powered. I would attribute that to lobby power, the electric utilities in this country are substantially better represented than the small independent natural gas drillers in America. Those electric utilities REALLY want a slice of the billions Americans spend on fuel for their transport. Natural pipeline infrastructure is good, but electric distribution across the country has it beat, hands down.

[Tanada]

No one has countered my arguments. here. much. less. you. or xeno.

I'm not trying to counter anyone's arguments. I don't think I have enough information on the subject, which is one of the reasons I'm reading this thread. I just want people to have a rational discussion instead of letting the thread degenerate. I don't think that's too much to ask.

You sir apparently are a Troll-Enabler. You must be unable or unwilling to take the correct side in a this debate (mine) or discern the difference between reasonable discussion and the distractions of a disruptive disingenuous ad hom deleted like Xeno. Shame

edit note knock it off pete, you have been baiting this poster for weeks. Try starting the new year without any of these personal statements.

[TheAntiDoomer]

No one has countered my arguments. here. much. less. you. or xeno.

I'm not trying to counter anyone's arguments. I don't think I have enough information on the subject, which is one of the reasons I'm reading this thread. I just want people to have a rational discussion instead of letting the thread degenerate. I don't think that's too much to ask.

You sir apparently are a Troll-Enabler. You must be unable or unwilling to take the correct side in a this debate (mine) or discern the difference between reasonable discussion and the distractions of a disruptive disingenuous (ad hom deleted) like Xeno. Shame

KingM is just trying to learn more about the subject and make a reasonable judgement on the subject for himself, nothing wrong with that. I personally believe we can switch a lot of our vehicles to natural gas, as some of teh poorest countries on earth have already proven that it can be done.

[TheAntiDoomer]

Westport Innovations has part of order for 50 liquefied natural gas trucks

http://www.winnipegfreepress.com/busine ... 45944.html

Westport Innovations Inc. (TSX:WPT) said Tuesday that it has received orders for its engine and fuel system technology to be included in 50 liquefied natural gas trucks.
Terms of the order with B.C.-based Vedder Transport Ltd. weren't released.
Westport said its engines, fuel tanks and electrical components are part the order for the 50 Peterbilt trucks that Vedder is buying.

[TheAntiDoomer]

That's too bad. Let me know when you want to have honest debate and discussion deleted
Kicking the crude

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/co ... 02948.html

America has a lot of natural gas, much of it newly accessible thanks to improved drilling technology. The fuel is inexpensive. The technology to run cars on natural gas exists, and burning natural gas instead of gasoline may reduce vehicle carbon emissions. Building enough fueling stations to service passenger cars, though, would be very expensive. So Mr. Reid, with a sustained push from natural gas booster T. Boone Pickens, wants to subsidize the replacement of America's buses and large trucks with ones that run on natural gas. Building infrastructure for vehicle fleets that travel along particular routes and refuel at predictable intervals is much cheaper - in fact, such a network already exists along major interstates in California and other western states.

[TheAntiDoomer]

Natural-Gas Vehicles On The Road To Acceptance

http://www.cnbc.com/id/40794709

With nearly 12 million vehicles around the world running on compressed natural gas these days, but only 120,000 of them in the U.S., opportunity looms in a country that is weary of expensive crude oil from increasingly unfriendly nations and home to a vast supply of natural gas.

“Without question, natural gas will allow our country to transition our transportation system away from expensive and carbon-heavy gasoline and diesel towards carbon-light, affordable American produced natural gas,” says Aubrey K. McClendon, CEO of Chesapeake Energy.

[pstarr]

Natural-Gas Vehicles On The Road To Acceptance

http://www.cnbc.com/id/40794709

With nearly 12 million vehicles around the world running on compressed natural gas these days, but only 120,000 of them in the U.S., opportunity looms . . .

I'll bet there are less than 120 goat carts in the US, but that is no reason to assume that we'll see a spike in goat-cart purchases anytime soon.

[TheAntiDoomer]

Natural-Gas Vehicles On The Road To Acceptance

http://www.cnbc.com/id/40794709

With nearly 12 million vehicles around the world running on compressed natural gas these days, but only 120,000 of them in the U.S., opportunity looms . . .

I'll bet there are less than 120 goat carts in the US, but that is no reason to assume that we'll see a spike in goat-cart purchases anytime soon.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5hfYJsQAhl0

[pstarr]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5hfYJsQAhl0

You have to post more than a link, otherwise you are in violation of the COC. But that's okay. I'll try to be more generous to the cornie in the future, because I can see this upsets him. Let's revisit your last rational statement:

I personally believe we can switch a lot of our vehicles to natural gas, as some of teh poorest countries on earth have already proven that it can be done.

You don't see the problem here? That the poorest countries need natural gas because they are poor, and can't afford gasoline and diesel? That natural gas is a lousy substitute for gasoline and diesel. Have you considered this?

Nah. You are the AntiDoomer and you are smarter than the doomers.

[OilFinder2]

You don't see the problem here? That the poorest countries need natural gas because they are poor, and can't afford gasoline and diesel? That natural gas is a lousy substitute for gasoline and diesel. Have you considered this?

If that is true, then you must believe the US will transition to natural gas, because, after all, you keep telling me the US economy will never recover and Americans will get poorer and poorer. This will force them to use an inferior fuel such as natural gas because they cannot afford gasoline and diesel anymore. Correct?

[JRP3]

That looks very similar to the constraints of the current crop of EV's coming out, though electrical outlets are far more prevalent than CNG stations.

So who cares that no parking lot in the United States has plugs?

But every home and business does. Vehicles spend more time parked than in motion, giving them plenty of time to charge. Eventually reality will force people to realize they don't really need the ability to travel endlessly on a whim, especially when cheap gas no longer exists, and they'll be quite happy to put up with limited range in exchange for the ability to go to work and the store cheaply in their limited range EV.