THE Battery Technology Thread pt 2 (merged)

[Jason111]

Hi ! Mate
What is the Difference between a Cell and a Battery?
Can you explain about the topic?
Thanks in Advance.

[Jenab]

This discussion is about the results of actual tests done by posters on how long their disposable batteries last. If you test a rechargeable battery, be sure to say it is rechargeable and how long it lasted on a single charge. The purpose of this discussion is to see for ourselves which battery brands are the best made, and which ones come up short, and in so doing help Peak Oil Forum users spend their money wisely when buying batteries. Or, if longterm storage space for batteries is at a premium, we can select the longest lasting batteries rather than the ones having the best money value.

I'll go first with a few tests of my own, just to give everyone else some idea of what information should be included. Of course, there will be circumstances of which we might not be aware. For example, a given battery might have been mistreated by being improperly kept in a humid environment or exposed to high temperatures (above 100°F), which might have leached some of the chemical energy out of the battery while it was still in the store package. To overcome that kind of problem, we'll just do lots of tests.

For my first time-to-drain tests, I purchased six CREE Q5 SA20 LED flashlights, said to emit 270 lumens (with a fresh battery) from a single LED. The ambient temperature during the tests varied from 70°F to 85°F, but staying in about the middle of that range most of the time. For each test, all of the flashlights being used were turned on within a span of 10 seconds.

Most people like to have a bright flashlight, but a fresh battery will only supply that bright light for a short while (about three hours with these LED flashlights), after which time the battery will have weakened to the point where the light output would be judged unsatisfactory and the battery replaced.

However, if you were stuck in a dark cave, even the puny glow of a depleted and most inferior battery would be much better than no light at all. In the kind of survival situation in which every bit of light is critical, you would not swap old batteries for fresh ones as long as the old battery was of any use at all.

And there a situations in which you might want a weak battery in your LED flashlight to emit only a weak beam. Such as if you were committing a burglary. Alkaline batteries will go on and on for quite a while at a reduced voltage, but what that sustained "tired" voltage is varies among battery brands.

Subjective judgments regarding weak flashlight beams are, in order of decreasing brightness:

* Inspect one's near vicinity, out to about 20 feet
* See one's own shoes with the flashlight held at shoulder height
* Read one's own watch with the flashlight a foot away


Battery Test #1.

This test was carried out in early November 2010. Tests on the following three alkaline batteries were done simultaneously:

1. Dollar General Home, AA, expiration 2015.
2. Dollar General Everyday, AA, expiration 2014.
3. Duracell Coppertop, AA, expiration 2013.

The main use times, bright to fairly dim, were DG Home: 3 hours, DG Everyday: 3.5 hours, and Duracell Coppertop: 5 hours.

Following the main use times, the Duracell Coppertop battery created a much brighter light than the DG Everyday Battery, which in turn was considerably brighter than the DG Home battery.

24 hours into test. The DG Home battery's residual glow is laughably feeble. The DG Everyday battery is a little better, but nothing to brag about. The Duracell Coppertop battery is by far the brightest of the three, though of course it was nowhere near as bright as it was at the start of the experiment.

31 hours into test. The DG Home AA battery is making feeble ghostly glow, not really useful, not quite extinct. The DG Everyday AA battery produces light sufficient for user's immediate surroundings in otherwise absolute darkness. The Duracell Coppertop AA battery, strongest of the three, makes a weak but serviceable beam.

47 hours into test. All batteries are at least somewhat weaker, but the Duracell Coppertop has suffered the biggest fall during the last 16 hours. Although it remains the strongest of the three batteries, the difference is now less than it was. The beam from the LED flashlight with the Coppertop battery is now at the "useful for immediate vicinity in total darkness" level.

78 hours into test. Both of the Dollar General batteries have become so weak that the light from their LED flashlights is useless for anything other than checking your watch (hold the LED real close). The Duracell Coppertop battery is still making a relatively brighter light that is sufficient to see your shoes in total darkness with the flashlight held at shoulder height.

About 90 hours into the test, all three of the batteries completely died, with no glow whatever coming from the flashlight LEDs.

The relative ranking of these three batteries is
1st place: Duracell Coppertop
2nd place: Dollar General Everyday
3rd place: Dollar General Home


Battery Test #2.

This test was carried out in mid-November 2010. Tests on the following three alkaline batteries were done simultaneously:

1. Dollar General Energy Super Plus, AA, expiration 2012.
2. Duracell Coppertop, AA, expiration 2014.
3. Energizer Max, AA, expiration 2014.

By 1h 30m into the test, the DG Energy Super Plus battery was already weakening, having become substantially weaker than either the Duracell or the Energizer battery.

By 6 hours into the test, it appears that the Duracell Coppertop battery is holding up better than the Energizer Max battery. Although both batteries have dimmed considerably, the Energizer has dimmed the more. The light from the DG Energy Super Plus battery is already quite feeble, by far the weakest of the three.

24 hours into test, the relative situation hasn't changed except that the difference between the Duracell Coppertop and the Energizer Max is greater than it was before. The Duracell Coppertop is by far the better battery. The Dollar General Energy Super Plus battery remains, of course, the very worst.

30 hours into test. The LED powered by the Energizer Max has faded so much that it is now equally bright with the Dollar General Energy Super Plus battery. The Duracell Coppertop battery LED outshines both of the other two.

64 hours into test. The Dollar General Energy Super Plus battery is dead and in the trash can. The Energizer Max is still putting out a "see your shoes in total darkness" feeble glow. The Duracell Coppertop is producing a somewhat brighter "inspect your near surroundings" weak beam.

72 hours into test. The Energizer Max is down to "check your watch in total darkness," and the Duracell Coppertop, still slightly brighter, has fallen to "see your shoes in total darkness."

80 hours into test. The Energizer Max and the Duracell Coppertop are producing about equally dim glows from their LEDs. You could check your watch with either of them.

88 hours into test. The Duracell Coppertop battery is dead. The Energizer Max battery continues to make the LED of its flashlight glow faintly. You could probably check your watch by it in total darkness.

92 hours. The Energizer battery is dead. Test over.

The relative ranking of these three batteries is
1st place: Duracell Coppertop
2nd place: Energizer Max
3rd place: Dollar General Energy Super Plus

The reason for the #1 ranking of the Duracell Coppertop is that its LED light was significantly brighter than that of the Energizer Max through most of the test. The Coppertop had a much higher integrated light output.

Jerry Abbott

[Jenab]

Battery Test #3.

Tests on the following six alkaline batteries were done simultaneously:

1. Duracell Coppertop, AA, exp. 2013
2. Kirkland Signature AA, exp. 2017
3. Energizer Max, AA, exp. 2014
4. DG Everyday AA, exp. 2014
5. DG Home AA, exp. 2015
6. DG Energy Super Plus, AA, exp. 2012

Initially, all flashlight LEDs are making equally bright, powerful beams.

3 hours into test. All three of the Dollar General batteries are making weaker beams of light than any of the other three batteries. It is difficult to say which of the stronger three beams is the brightest.

10 hours into test. The DG Energy Super Plus battery has fallen to "see your shoes" voltage. The DG Home is at "inspect your near vicinity" level. The DG Everyday is a little brighter than the DG Home. Of the other three, the Duracell Coppertop is making the brightest beam, with the Energizer Max running a close 2nd place. The Kirkland Signature is in third place, significantly brighter than the DG Everyday, but discernibly less bright than the Energizer Max.

45 hours into test. The DG Energy Super Plus battery is now barely sufficient to check your watch into total darkness. The DG Home battery has fallen to "see your shoes" level. The DG Everyday battery used in this test is holding up better than expected, in fourth place just behind third-place Kirkland Signature. The Duracell Coppertop, in first place, has a narrow lead over the 2nd-place Energizer Max.

53 hours into test. The DG Energy Super Plus battery is dead and in the trash can.

63 hours into test. The Duracell Coppertop, still in first place, making a useful beam of light. The Kirkland Signature battery, now in 2nd place, has fallen to "inspect your near surroundings." The DG Home is in 3rd place at "see your shoes." The Energizer Max has fallen far, now in 4th place at "check your watch." The DG Everyday has also fallen to "check your watch" and is in 5th place.

68 hours into test. The DG Everyday and the DG Home batteries are both dead. The Energizer Max is barely holding on with "check your watch (hold the LED real close)," while the Kirkland Signature is somewhere between "see your shoes" and "check your watch." The Duracell Coppertop continues to make a useful beam, but now at almost the "inspect your near surroundings" level.

69 hours into test. The Energizer Max battery is dead.

73 hours into test. The Kirkland Signature battery is dead. The Duracell Coppertop battery, the only one left in this test, remains at "inspect your near surroundings" level.

88 hours into test. The Duracell Coppertop has fallen to "check your watch" level.

91 hours into test. The Duracell Coppertop battery is dead.

The relative ranking of these three batteries is
1st place: Duracell Coppertop
2nd place: Kirkland Signature
3rd place: Energizer Max
4th place: DG Everyday
5th place: DG Home
6th place: DG Energy Super Plus

[Jenab]

Three times out of three, the Duracell Coppertop battery has consistently provided a relatively brighter light from the test instruments (CREE Q5 SA20 LED flashlights that emit 270 lumens with a potential difference of 1.5 volts) than any of the competing batteries did. Furthermore, the Coppertops usually kept going longer than the other tested batteries.

It appears that Duracell just makes a better battery, so one of the questions that I have now is whether the Coppertop is the best battery that Duracell makes. To partly answer that question, my next test will include a Duracell Procell AA battery as well as a Coppertop. I'll also include another Energizer Max and another Kirkland Signature in Test #4, which begins in 24 minutes.

[KingM]

Interesting about the Kirkland battery. I've found the Kirkland products to be surprisingly high quality, given that they are essentially a store brand.

As for Duracell vs. Energizer, I guess I'd bought into the ten billion dollars in Energizer Bunny advertising over the last 25 years and assumed that it would be "still going" after Duracell was dead. Nope.

[Jenab]

Interesting about the Kirkland battery. I've found the Kirkland products to be surprisingly high quality, given that they are essentially a store brand.

As for Duracell vs. Energizer, I guess I'd bought into the ten billion dollars in Energizer Bunny advertising over the last 25 years and assumed that it would be "still going" after Duracell was dead. Nope.

I'm 47 hours into Test #4, in which I'm comparing a Duracell Coppertop, an Energizer Max, a Kirkland Signature, and THREE Duracell Procell batteries.

For the first 44 hours, the Energizer Max was making the brightest LED light of the six, while the Duracell Coppertop and the Kirkland Signature dueled for 2nd place.

The Duracell Procells are nowhere near as good as I expected them to be, showing a very early decline from their "fresh" voltage, and thereafter showing only "Dollar Store Battery" level performance.

Then about 45 hours into the test, the Energizer Max began slowly to weaken so that now, T+47 hours, the Coppertop's LED is the brightest, the Kirkland Signature is in 2nd place, with the Energizer Max running close behind in 3rd place. All three frontrunners are at the "inspect your near surroundings" level of beam brightness. One of the Procells has fallen to "check your watch" while the other two are still holding at "see your shoes."

Battery tests are a lot like horse races. You can probably even bet on them.

[basil_hayden]

OK so now you know what everyone else always knew - Duracell is the best, duh.

But do they cost twice as much and last three times as long, thereby getting the most bang for your buck?
How do they work after sitting in Roccman's bunker for a decade?
Can I recharge them with my alternative electricity source?

That would be a battery test fit for po.com!

[Keith_McClary]

As for Duracell vs. Energizer, I guess I'd bought into the ten billion dollars in Energizer Bunny advertising

If you listen carefully you will notice that battery companies never actually make specific, quantitative claims to be better. Same with many other products.

"Truth in advertising", not like the good old days:

[Jenab]

68 hours into test #4. Surprise! Both the Energizer Max and the Kirkland Signature have pooped out. They're dead and in the trash can. The Duracell Coppertop continues to make an "inspect your near surroundings" intensity beam of light, while all three of the Duracell Procell batteries are still going, if dimly. Two of the Procells are making "see your shoes" beams, while the third Procell is still glowing at the level of "check your watch (hold the LED real close).

I'll post Test #4 in its entirety once all the batteries are done.

[steam_cannon]

Thanks Jenab! Great thread, there's nothing like actual real-world testing and experience.

[Jenab]

Battery Test #4.

Tests on the following six alkaline batteries were done simultaneously:

1. Duracell Coppertop, AA, exp. 2014
2. Energizer Max, AA, exp. 2014
3. Kirkland Signature AA, exp. 2017
4. Duracell Procell AA, exp. 2017
5. Duracell Procell AA, exp. 2017
6. Duracell Procell AA, exp. 2017

Initially, all flashlight LEDs are making equally bright, powerful beams.

1h 30m into test. The Duracell Procell batteries have already fallen considerably! The other batteries are still putting forth their "fresh" intensity LED beams, but the Procells now manage only a much weaker "inspect your near surroundings" beam.

7 hours into test. All batteries have declined from their fresh output. The Energizer Max has the brightest beam of the six. The Kirkland Signature and the Duracell Coppertop are making about equally bright beams. And the Duracell Procells have the dimmest LED.

12 hours into test. The Energizer Max is the brightest, followed by the Kirkland Signature, followed by the Duracell Coppertop, followed by the Duracell Procells.

25 hours into test. So far, the Duracell Procells, although they had an early decline in brightness, haven't yet fallen off their secondary brightness plateau. Meanwhile, the other batteries have diminished somewhat. The Energizer Max still holds 1st place. The Duracell Coppertop is now in 2nd place, having a narrow lead over the Kirkland Signature. The Kirkland Signature battery is slightly brighter than the Duracell Procell.

45 hours into test. The Duracell Coppertop and the Energizer Max are tied for first place, with the Kirkland Signature being just a tiny bit weaker. One of the Duracell Procells has fallen to "see your shoes" level. The other two Procells remain at "inspect your near surroundings."

68 hours into test. The Energizer Max and the Kirkland Signature batteries are both dead. The Duracell Coppertop continues making a "inspect your near surroundings" beam. Two of the Procells are making "see your shoes" beams, with the third Procell still creating a "check your watch (hold the LED real close)" glow.

74 hours into test. The Duracell Coppertop LED has fallen to "see your shoes" level and is now about as bright as two of the Duracell Procell LEDs, but it is brighter than the dimmest Procell LED.

76 hours into test. The Duracell Coppertop light is now dimmer than the light made by two of the Duracell Procells, but isn't as dim as the light from the third Procell.

80 hours into test. The Coppertop continues to diminish. It is now the weakest of the batteries, making only a "check your watch (hold the LED real close)" glow.

82 hours into test. The Duracell Coppertop battery is dead.

100 hours into test. The Duracell Procells, all three of them, continue to enable their LEDs to emit a feeble "check your watch" level of light. Although they have been weak through most of this test, they seem to be designed to drop rapidly in voltage and then to provide a long period of current at a reduced voltage level. They are, therefore, not well suited to be flashlight batteries, where brightness counts, but they might make good batteries for gadgets that can work well with a reduced voltage.

The relative ranking of these six batteries is
1st place: Duracell Coppertop
2nd place: Energizer Max
3rd place: Kirkland Signature
4th, 5th, 6th places: Duracell Procell

Why the bottom ranking for the Duracell Procell when it outlasted all the other batteries? You don't carry a flashlight just to check your watch or see your shoes. If the flashlight beam is so dim that you can't do anything more with it, then it is practically useless. A battery's active time "counts" only so long as it remains at or above "inspect your near surroundings" level.

[Jenab]

In the four preceding tests, the Duracell Coppertop battery maintained a LED flashlight beam at or above the "inspect your near surroundings" brightness level for about 70 hours.

The Kirkland Signature battery wasn't tested in either Test #1 or Test #2. In Test #3, it made an acceptable LED flashlight beam for 65 hours. In Test #4, it was acceptable for 56 hours. We estimate it has a useful flashlight service life of about 60 hours.

(However, during the first 60 hours of use, the Duracell Coppertop makes brighter light than the Kirkland Signature does.)

The Energizer Max wasn't tested in Test #1. It served to produce an acceptable LED flashlight beam for 24 hours in Test #2, for 55 hours in Test #3, and for 56 hours in Test #4. If we assume that the Max in Test #2 was a bum battery, we'd say that it had a usual flashlight service life of about 55 hours.

Likewise, the Dollar General Everyday battery probably would work for an LED flashlight for about 40 hours, although it varies considerably. The DG Home battery might serve in an LED flashlight for about 20 hours. You'd be lucky to get 10 hours of service out of a DG Energy Super Plus battery.

Upcoming.

Test #5 will compare two Duracell Coppertops against two Duracell Ultra batteries.

[BlisteredWhippet]

As an interesting adjunct to this research (and warranting further study,) I once lived in a college house with roommates. One day I was in the room of my hippie chick roommate and she loaded some alkaline batteries (Duracell coppertop) into her CD player- from a recharger. I pointed out that such behavior might result in a fire. She scoffed at my warning and swore she had been doing this for years- with the same batteries.

So hippie chick proves "Disposable batteries" are actually rechargeable to some extent. There are probably permanent reductions in capacity for each charge, but clearly still functional in low-voltage electronics to some capacity. Something to remember when all hope (and light) has faded.

[Jenab]

As an interesting adjunct to this research (and warranting further study,) I once lived in a college house with roommates. One day I was in the room of my hippie chick roommate and she loaded some alkaline batteries (Duracell coppertop) into her CD player- from a recharger. I pointed out that such behavior might result in a fire. She scoffed at my warning and swore she had been doing this for years- with the same batteries.

So hippie chick proves "Disposable batteries" are actually rechargeable to some extent. There are probably permanent reductions in capacity for each charge, but clearly still functional in low-voltage electronics to some capacity. Something to remember when all hope (and light) has faded.

I could get a cheap charger and set it up outside where a fire would not be a problem. I might do it eventually.

[Jenab]

Battery Test #5.

Tests on the following four alkaline batteries were done simultaneously:

1. Duracell Coppertop, AA, exp. 2016
2. Duracell Coppertop, AA, exp. 2016
3. Duracell Ultra, AA, exp. 2016
4. Duracell Ultra, AA, exp. 2016

Initially, all four batteries are making bright, powerful beams, sufficient to light the tops of 30-meter-tall oak trees.

30 hours into test. All four batteries are performing as the Duracell Coppertops performed in previous tests. There is no significant difference in the brightness of any of the LEDs so far. All of the batteries have diminished from their fresh intensity, but all of them remain more than adequate for inspecting near surroundings.

55 hours into test. Until recently all of the batteries were weakening at about the same rate. Now, however, one of the Coppertops has fallen to "inspect your near surroundings."

60 hours into test. One Coppertop has fallen to "check your watch" and the other remains at "inspect your near surroundings." Both of the Duracell Ultra batteries have fallen to "inspect your near surroundings."

64 hours into test. The Coppertop that had been weaker is now dead and in the trash can. The other Coppertop is at "check your watch" level. The Ultras remain at on the dim side of "inspect your near surroundings."

It has occurred to me to wonder why I'm getting superior endurance from Coppertops having expiration dates in 2012-2014 than for Coppertops having expiration dates in 2016, and whether Duracell reduced the amount of energy put into their more recently manufactured Coppertop batteries.

72 hours into test. The other Coppertop battery is dead, after having held only a useless dim glow for the past 4 hours. One of the Duracell Ultras has fallen to the "see your shoes" level, while the other continues on at "inspect your near surroundings."

84 hours into test. The brighter Ultra is at "see your shoes." The dimmer Ultra is at "check your watch."

[Outcast_Searcher]

So hippie chick proves "Disposable batteries" are actually rechargeable to some extent. There are probably permanent reductions in capacity for each charge, but clearly still functional in low-voltage electronics to some capacity. Something to remember when all hope (and light) has faded.

When I was a kid (maybe 38 - 40 years ago) my dad had a battery charger, and I would recharge AA and DD lead acid batteries. It seems to me that you got ONE decent recharge from these. (This was pre-Alkaline, of course). The second charge was not really worth doing. The performance dropoff for successive charges after the first was more or less exponential. (I was too inexperienced to even consider safety at age 10-12. I assumed if my mechanical engineer dad wasn't worried about it, that I didn't have to).

Rechargable batteries give remarkably good performance now, IMO, and are reasonably priced if you shop. To me, except when you need fresh batteries NOW, these have basically made normal Alkaline batteries obsolete from both a cost and a waste/earth unfriendly standpoint.

Or maybe if you are backpacking and want MAXIMUM power to weight and reliability. But what percentage of the market can that be?

[oowolf]

Let's see a test of those "wind-up" flashlights, please. (You seem to have a lot of time available for such things.)

[AgentR11]

Front page article asks the question about whether economies of scale will effect the cost of the battery pack necessary for an electric car to be, electric.

I'd like to point you to the laptop battery market, and the UPS (uninterruptible power supply) battery markets. These things are produced in enormous quantities; and the price is as high as it always has been. Scaling reduces cost when the biggest portion of cost is labor or production molding type stuff. When the biggest portion of the cost is simply the raw materials; it doesn't really matter whether you produce 100 or 100,000; and in fact, if you produce enough of them, you'll hit the demand side button on those raw materials, and it'll end up being even more expensive per unit to make 1,000,000 than it will to make 100.

Scaling can not save us on the economics of batteries. New tech could, but so far nothing has come along to prove that it will.

[kublikhan]

Stanford researchers have developed a battery that takes advantage of the difference in salinity between freshwater and seawater to produce electricity. Anywhere freshwater enters the sea, such as river mouths or estuaries, could be potential sites for a power plant using such a battery.

As an indicator of the battery's potential for producing power, Cui's team calculated that if all the world's rivers were put to use, their batteries could supply about 2 terawatts of electricity annually -- that's roughly 13 percent of the world's current energy consumption.

The battery itself is simple, consisting of two electrodes -- one positive, one negative -- immersed in a liquid containing electrically charged particles, or ions. In water, the ions are sodium and chlorine, the components of ordinary table salt. Initially, the battery is filled with freshwater and a small electric current is applied to charge it up. The freshwater is then drained and replaced with seawater. Once the discharge is complete, the seawater is drained and replaced with freshwater and the cycle can begin again.

"The water for this method does not have to be extremely clean," he said. Storm runoff and gray water could potentially be useable. A power plant operating with 50 cubic meters of freshwater per second could produce up to 100 megawatts of power, according to the team's calculations.

River Water and Salty Ocean Water Used to Generate Electricity

[JRP3]

Not quite accurate. UPS batteries are lead acid, their production volume price efficiencies stopped many years ago. Laptop batteries have both improved and lowered costs, and they've had at least 10 years of development to do so. My laptop has 3 times the run time of my old one and cost almost half as much, partly because or improved and cheaper cells. Tesla leveraged that form factor in their favor to create the most energy dense EV battery pack. Those cells are still showing improvements and Tesla's new Model S will take advantage of that fact. Actual EV sized cells have not yet been produced in any real volume, and the chemistries are constantly improving. Continuing advancements coupled with real volume production will lower pack costs even without some miracle breakthrough.