Future of timber (for timber owners and aficionados)

[Heineken]

Well, Ibon. That is a confession. I don't know whether I'm sorry or glad that you can make it.

Your Panama project sounds so thrilling, except when you get centipedes in your mouth. (That goes beyond thrilling.) I'm envious.

Can you refresh my memory on how it is you live in Wash. State and manage forest land in Panama? Do you travel back and forth regularly?

[Ibon]

Well, Ibon. That is a confession. I don't know whether I'm sorry or glad that you can make it.

Your Panama project sounds so thrilling, except when you get centipedes in your mouth. (That goes beyond thrilling.) I'm envious.

Can you refresh my memory on how it is you live in Wash. State and manage forest land in Panama? Do you travel back and forth regularly?

Geez you remember that centipede story. That happened actually in Thailand a couple of years ago.

We have already immigrated to Panama and we have residency down there. My wife and the youngest of our two teenage daughters are still in Seattle where we are renting a small place. I join them when I am not in Panama but this past year I have been most of the year down there. I am now in Seattle actually and am returning to Panama again in two weeks. I am usually active here on PO.com when I am in the USA. Once I am back up the mountain in Panama I have only limited internet access. We are basically finishing up the transition to living permanently down there which will be complete once our youngest daughter finishes high school (next year). I have a caretaker and his family who are year round present on site in Panama and look after things when I am not there.

[Newfie]

Good conversation here.

I don't know if I would consider myself "wealthy." Although I am by some standards by many traditional Western standards I am only "middle class" or perhaps "upper middle class." For all that we live in an urban center we are pretty frugal. I had some inheritance and put it to where I thought it made the most sense, and where my Father would have approved.

We bought 168 acres for $58,000 US about 7 years ago. Taxes are about $800/year. For the most part I have quit giving to charities, I feel that supporting this land makes for a more direct contribution to the world. This will likely be my inheritance to my kids.

True many can not afford it. But, on the other hand, if each person were required to have some reasonable scope of land, I don't know, say 40 acres, then that would limit our population to something sustainable. I don't for a second, a milli-second think such a proposal has a chance, I'm just relating to Earth's carrying capacity.

[Heineken]

We have already immigrated to Panama . . . .

Just amazing. I love it when people make their dreams HAPPEN.

[Heineken]

Good conversation here.

I don't know if I would consider myself "wealthy." Although I am by some standards by many traditional Western standards I am only "middle class" or perhaps "upper middle class." For all that we live in an urban center we are pretty frugal. I had some inheritance and put it to where I thought it made the most sense, and where my Father would have approved.

We bought 168 acres for $58,000 US about 7 years ago. Taxes are about $800/year. For the most part I have quit giving to charities, I feel that supporting this land makes for a more direct contribution to the world. This will likely be my inheritance to my kids.

True many can not afford it. But, on the other hand, if each person were required to have some reasonable scope of land, I don't know, say 40 acres, then that would limit our population to something sustainable. I don't for a second, a milli-second, think such a proposal has a chance, I'm just relating to Earth's carrying capacity.

Land is, in general, the smartest investment. (After health, anyway.) Not necessarily an investment for making money, but for engaging the natural world . . . life itself.

168 acres is huge, Newfie. Like owning your own little country. I bet there are places on it you'll never even see.

How far a drive is it from the city where you live? And do you have any hope to move there? (I know it's in Canada.)

I own land in two parcels, the 25 acres where I live, and 50 acres of wild pine timberland (which I call "Silverdeer") about 70 miles south of here. It cost $118,000 three years ago (land in Virginia is expensive; that was cheap by our standards . . . although the tract is one mile off road by deeded ROW). Taxes are only $220/yr. I used to visit Silverdeer monthly, but I don't get down there nearly as often anymore because both my parents are in nursing homes now, I don't like leaving this place or my dog alone, and my dog doesn't travel well, lol. After my fiancee arrives at the end of August I hope to start hitting Silverdeer again. The drive isn't bad but I do wish it were closer, and I'm not sure I'm going to keep it long-term. It's best to live on land you own, or for the land to be just down the road around the bend.

After being on 25 acres so long, the 50 acres seems really big. I can't imagine how big 168 acres must "feel." You can get lost on it, right?

I'd like to buy another 7-acre lot adjacent to these 25 acres, but I've never been able to contact the owner of record. I imagine this is the place where I'll croak, unless my fiancee doesn't like it (but she's gaga about it so far, without having been here yet). I'd pay big bucks for that 7 acres.

[Newfie]

Yes, there are compromises. It is close to 1,200 miles by car. And I only last year got to walk the perimeter. I did walk it in the snow when I bought but had not gotten all over and it looks a whole lot different with 2 feet of cover. I learned a lot when I did get to walk it. It is far less conducive to farming than I had thought, but some areas are just drop dead gorgeous. I even have a little gorge and saw a small trout in the stream. The elevation change is on the order of 400', then 500' down to the lake. There are at least 5 different "regions" on the property, three are: clear cut 25 years ago (about 40 acres), maple removed much earlier (maybe another 40 acres), no signs of tree cutting what-so-ever which is mixed beech and maple. Then there is old black spruce, a little stream flood plain, and finally the deep mixed wood drop off (500')into the Bra 'd Or Lake.

Three years ago we planted 35 trees: apples, pears, cherry, and two kinds of oaks. The idea being to put in something that would produce food for us or food for game. As to improvements it only has a bridge over the creek and an old logging road up the property. We planted the trees, for the most part, along the road. I did a little, very little, selective clearing last summer around the turn around where we park.

Without going into too much detail our decision to buy here was to find a place sufficiently difficult to get to that we could escape the mass of the crowds, but not so difficult we ourselves could not get there.

There is little sense in doing much to "improve" the property as we won't live there and it will be subject to vandalism and decay. But, it is a place we can go to if we need to. Now with our boat we can get there without road travel. If that is where we choose to go. It is big enough that my kids could do something with it if necessary, while living on the boat in the meantime.

I would love to spend more time there, but @#$% work gets in the way.

[Heineken]

Sounds fascinating (especially the water aspects), Newfie, although definitely a bit far.

It's nice just knowing it's there, right?

I guess I'd think of a place like that as a sort of time-share vacation place you don't have to share, if that makes any sense. Since you can only go there occasionally, but when you do you want to spend some serious time there.

I bought a largish shed ($3,000) and had it moved to Silverdeer, and I built on a small deck; also a fire pit. Vandalism to the shed ("cabin") is a possibility, always, but I'm not worried about it and if it happens I'm not out too much money.

[Newfie]

I have come to the conclusion that I really don't understand all that drives me, perhaps that is true for most of us.

The things I like about the property include:
1 Just the sense of having enough property to have some privacy
2 Someplace of my own to hunt on, if even just rabbits
3 A bug out place for when it happens
4 Preservation of, perhaps, a little bit of old growth
5 Doing my own, for real no BS, carbon off set which relieves a bit of my guilt for being such a consumer
6 Stopping the clear cutting

Not all of those reasons require me to be there so I get some benefit just knowing it is there.

But, it is far and I do wish I had more time there.

[Ibon]

I thought I would share with those following this thread some photos and details of two dead ancient oak trees we recently harvested at Mount Totumas Cloud Forest in Panama.

http://mounttotumas.com/wordpress/?m=201008

[Pops]

Stunning Ibon.

I'm not often envious but I am now, more power to you.

[Revi]

Awesome blog Ibon! I used to live in Guatemala right near the Biotopo del Quetzal and love the cloud forest.

I think having some timberland is a good move, especially for those of us who work a regular job. You get a bunch of things that are useful such as firewood, building materials and recreation. We make maple syrup as well. I call it a farm for us regular people.

It would be nice to have some arable land as well, but I really don't need more than a garden spot. Anything more than that is more lawn to mow.

I own a 20 acre woodlot with a friend, 5 acres on a rocky island with spruce covering it and a half acre around our house. It seems like that's a lot to take care of.