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Plentiful Energy and the IFR Story

Discussions of conventional and alternative energy production technologies.

Re: Plentiful Energy and the IFR Story

Unread postby EnergyUnlimited » Sun 19 Sep 2010, 13:41:44

Carlhole wrote: If you have a source whereby you can show that the Argonne IFR never operated, by all means post it. Good luck with that.

You could call Argonne IFR experimentally verified if:

1. Fissile nuclear material was loaded into reactor core and ignition in fast neutron mode have taken place with rate of process within design range.

2.Successful on site reprocessing of spent fuel as per proposed scheme have been demonstrated.

3. No incidents questioning ability of the setup to work properly have been found or reasons of any such incidents were rectified.

Then and only then you can call your reactor project working.
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Re: Plentiful Energy and the IFR Story

Unread postby Carlhole » Sun 19 Sep 2010, 14:13:58

EnergyUnlimited wrote:
Carlhole wrote: If you have a source whereby you can show that the Argonne IFR never operated, by all means post it. Good luck with that.

You could call Argonne IFR experimentally verified if:

1. Fissile nuclear material was loaded into reactor core and ignition in fast neutron mode have taken place with rate of process within design range.

For christ sake, it was a 2.5 GW reactor that operated for years. Anyone can read this stuff. It's public domain. The OP link "Plentiful Energy and the IFR Story" was written by the former director of the program, Charles Till. Read it. I can't believe how dense you are.

EnergyUnlimited wrote:2.Successful on site reprocessing of spent fuel as per proposed scheme have been demonstrated.

Integral Fast Reactors, by design, reprocess fuel. They utilize 99.5% of the energy contained in nuclear fuel (as compared to less than 1% accomplished by conventional reactors such as LWR). The residual waste remaining after multiple passes through the reactor is then made safe via pyroprocessing, an "integral" part of the Argonne design, hence the name "Integral Fast Reactor".

The Integral Fast Reactor Q&A
The last step of the project that got short-circuited (by politics) was the commercial scale pyroprocessing, but by the time Congress killed it the facilities had already been built and were ready to go. It's a pretty simple technology and had been used over the course of the years of the IFR research to make over 3,400 fuel slugs. We're not talking about large amounts here, either, only about a gallon a day for a 2.5 GW reactor. That's peanuts. I think it's important to stress not that research has to be restarted, which makes this sound undeveloped, but that we have to build them.

EnergyUnlimited wrote:3. No incidents questioning ability of the setup to work properly have been found or reasons of any such incidents were rectified. Then and only then you can call your reactor project working.

The IFR worked extremely well by all accounts. There were no accidents or anything.

Wiki
In 2001, as part of the Generation IV roadmap, the DOE tasked a 242 person team of scientists from DOE, UC Berkeley, MIT, Stanford, ANL, LLNL, Toshiba, Westinghouse, Duke, EPRI, and other institutions to evaluate 19 of the best reactor designs on 27 different criteria. The IFR ranked #1 in their study which was released April 9, 2002
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Re: Plentiful Energy and the IFR Story

Unread postby pstarr » Sun 19 Sep 2010, 14:17:48

Carlhole wrote:
EnergyUnlimited wrote:
Carlhole wrote: If you have a source whereby you can show that the Argonne IFR never operated, by all means post it. Good luck with that.

You could call Argonne IFR experimentally verified if:

1. Fissile nuclear material was loaded into reactor core and ignition in fast neutron mode have taken place with rate of process within design range.

For christ sake, it was a 2.5 GW reactor that operated for years.
No. It was/did not. It generated a pittance, 20 megawatts of electricity, and only produced 2.5 GW/H over its lifetime of 30 years
Our great-great-grandparents burned wood and coal. Our grandparents burned oil. We burn natural gas. Our children will burn their furniture. :badgrin:
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Re: Plentiful Energy and the IFR Story

Unread postby Carlhole » Sun 19 Sep 2010, 14:31:27

pstarr wrote:
Carlhole wrote:
EnergyUnlimited wrote:
Carlhole wrote: If you have a source whereby you can show that the Argonne IFR never operated, by all means post it. Good luck with that.

You could call Argonne IFR experimentally verified if:

1. Fissile nuclear material was loaded into reactor core and ignition in fast neutron mode have taken place with rate of process within design range.

For christ sake, it was a 2.5 GW reactor that operated for years.
No. It was/did not. It generated a pittance, 20 megawatts of electricity, and only produced 2.5 GW/H over its lifetime of 30 years


Oh come on, you pathetic liar. Got a link for that?
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Re: Plentiful Energy and the IFR Story

Unread postby pstarr » Sun 19 Sep 2010, 14:38:22

Carlhole wrote:Oh come on, you pathetic liar. Got a link for that?


wiki wrote:It was designed to produce about 62.5 megawatts of heat and 20 megawatts of electricity, which was achieved in September 1969 and continued for most of its lifetime. Over its lifetime it has generated over two billion kilowatt-hours of electricity, providing a majority of the electricity and also heat to the facilities of the Argonne National Laboratory-West.
What's with the name-calling? You don't win arguments acting like a petulant little boy or deranged comic-book bad guy. This isn't Batman and Robin :razz:
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Re: Plentiful Energy and the IFR Story

Unread postby efarmer » Sun 19 Sep 2010, 14:44:45

I have listened to Dr. Hansen over the years and I have respect for him. I recently watched a 28 minute interview with him and was struck by his presentation of AGW and his call for carbon being made expensive as a fuel source and nuclear innovation and deployment for base load energy.
For acceptance Dr. Hansen will have to deliver the game of progressive pain in chapters based on the chronology of symptoms, and then wait for symptom manifestation to deliver the next chapter as a teaching moment. I.E. You have to sell pain with pain.

For example:

1. First your toes will tingle and ache.
(Oh that's a bunch of BS, ha ha ha... dang my toes is tingling!) (or not)
2. Then your knees will knock like castanets and become bruised and purple.
(Ain't so bad if you duct tape foam rubber around your knees, what did he say comes next?)
3. Next your thighs will swell until they dwarf your buttocks.
(Okay, what do I have to do to again?)


Dr. Hansen is selling solutions to trends that are not acute enough to buy acceptance and moving on to technology like IFR that is similarly not manifested in concrete terms enough as a solution for the trends. Think simple, if you can't drive your pickup out and eat a corn dog while you tour the IFR
it ain't real enough to double your electric bill locally to slap one up.

AGW has not hurt people at a fundamental enough level on a persistent enough basis for them to consider it as real, much less to consider anything attached to sacrifice in order to combat it.
This is compounded that when he attempts to make carbon more expensive as fuel there is real
evidence that it is vanishing due to resource limits anyway, and those who fight with every fiber of their being against the resource limits issues now, will put these issues on like a cheap suit to fight the taking of their green from carbon fueled exploits to apply as carbon sin payments.

Dr. Hansen is not being assailed or doubted at all by me, but I am convinced he is attempting to train and guide a mule, and until it gets smacked with a two by four, he simply is not going to have it's attention.
Last edited by efarmer on Sun 19 Sep 2010, 14:52:04, edited 3 times in total.
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Re: Plentiful Energy and the IFR Story

Unread postby Carlhole » Sun 19 Sep 2010, 14:45:44

pstarr wrote:
Carlhole wrote:Oh come on, you pathetic liar. Got a link for that?


wiki wrote:It was designed to produce about 62.5 megawatts of heat and 20 megawatts of electricity, which was achieved in September 1969 and continued for most of its lifetime. Over its lifetime it has generated over two billion kilowatt-hours of electricity, providing a majority of the electricity and also heat to the facilities of the Argonne National Laboratory-West.
What's with the name-calling? You don't win arguments acting like a petulant little boy or deranged comic-book bad guy. This isn't Batman and Robin :razz:


You're quoting something on Wikipedia about the Experimental Breeder Reactor II which was the Integral Fast Reactor's predecessor and prototype.

The EBR-II has served as prototype of the Integral Fast Reactor (IFR), which was the intended successor to the EBR-II. The IFR program was started in 1983, but funding was withdrawn by U.S. Congress in 1994, three years before the intended completion of the program. The Nuclear Energy division of General Electric, which was involved in the development of the IFR, has presented a design for a commercial version of the IFR: the S-PRISM reactor.


So I guess I should have said, "you pathetic dumbass", instead of "liar", since you are unable to search for and retrieve simple, accurate information.
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Re: Plentiful Energy and the IFR Story

Unread postby EnergyUnlimited » Sun 19 Sep 2010, 15:00:56

pstarr wrote:What's with the name-calling? You don't win arguments acting like a petulant little boy or deranged comic-book bad guy. This isn't Batman and Robin :razz:

He is emotionally invested in survival of technotopia so he will start ad hominems against anyone questioning that.

I actually don't understand his argument.
Proper design of IFR capable to demonstrate feasibility of commercial application was scrapped and not demonstrated to work in practice.
It was scrapped 3 years before completion.

Small scale prototype resembling in size and power output military FBR for plutonium production was investigated but it was not fully featured IFR.

This project is known as EBR II.

He simply doesn't know what he is talking about.
No 2.5GW nuclear reactor, even one working in LWR mode have been built up to date.
We are discussing here some phantom nuclear technology which is not there.
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Re: Plentiful Energy and the IFR Story

Unread postby diemos » Sun 19 Sep 2010, 15:02:35

"The EBR-II has served as prototype of the Integral Fast Reactor (IFR), which was the intended successor to the EBR-II. The IFR program was started in 1983, but funding was withdrawn by U.S. Congress in 1994, three years before the indended completion of the program. The Nuclear Energy division of General Electric, which was involved in the development of the IFR, has presented a design for a commercial version of the IFR: the S-PRISM reactor."

From your own link. EBR-II was the only thing that ever ran. You really need to work on your reading comprehension.
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Re: Plentiful Energy and the IFR Story

Unread postby Tanada » Sun 19 Sep 2010, 15:54:53

EnergyUnlimited wrote:
Subjectivist wrote:Russia has two fast reactor operating and several more under construction.

http://www.insc.anl.gov/cgi-bin/sql_int ... id&qval=12

Russian BN-350 and BN-600 are not breeding fast breeders.
They are like an aircraft which have never taken off...
They produce energy twice as expensive as LWR base on burning of enriched uranium and some MOX.
They were never operated in a mode allowing to produce more fissile material than they use.

If you add expenses of reprocessing in proper FBR cycle, price of this energy will go up few times again.
Realistically it may be something like 5 times more than LWR.

FBR-s are working best as 20-100MW military applications directed at plutonium manufacturing.
They cannot compete with LWR for energy production.


Hold up there a minute Pilgrim, unless these things are fueled with either pure U-235 or a matrix compound like Silicon Carbide with U-235 in it then they most certainly are producing Plutonium. Every reactor on the planet fueled with LEU also converts some of its U-238 into Pu-239, but the fast reactors do this with far greater efficiency. My understanding from a quick look at it is these reactors started out with a 17%-22% HEU fuel load and operated for years at a time before enough neutron absorbing fission fragments build up to stifle the reaction. The only way they could run for years is if they are converting U-238 into Pu-239 with substantial efficiency, either as very high capacity converters or as actual breeders.

As for the IFR project, every step was tested and proven using the EBR-2 and Fermi-1 fuel elements to test the Electro-refining process up to and including reinserting refined fuel back into the EBR-2. The part of the project that was canceled was the construction of a large scale commercial power production fast reactor with all the technologies integrated together on the plant site. Each of the individual technologies have been tested separately and shown to be viable. The cost for producing power commercially with the fully integrated IFR system all on one plant site were calculated based on real world experience to be cost competitive with other base load power supply technologies.
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Re: Plentiful Energy and the IFR Story

Unread postby efarmer » Sun 19 Sep 2010, 16:12:06

Excellent data Tanada, so are we to expect abandonment of all other reactor types for the IFR designs or will other factors drive the next commercially deployed reactors and if so, why?
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Re: Plentiful Energy and the IFR Story

Unread postby Carlhole » Sun 19 Sep 2010, 16:23:35

diemos wrote:"The EBR-II has served as prototype of the Integral Fast Reactor (IFR), which was the intended successor to the EBR-II. The IFR program was started in 1983, but funding was withdrawn by U.S. Congress in 1994, three years before the indended completion of the program. The Nuclear Energy division of General Electric, which was involved in the development of the IFR, has presented a design for a commercial version of the IFR: the S-PRISM reactor."

From your own link. EBR-II was the only thing that ever ran. You really need to work on your reading comprehension.


The IFR and EBR II were research programs that took place at the Argonne research facility in Idaho. But the IFR was fundamentally different than the EBR II because it sought to demonstrate a closed fuel cycle system with an on-site recycling capability - and it was successful. The only thing that the program lacked was a formal demonstration of all processes including on-site pyroprocessing. But the IFR had been doing pyroprocessing for quite some time. All capabilities were in place.

People like Dr. James Hansen recommend the IFR to solve or mitigate our global warming problems. James Lovelock is also one who believes that nuclear power is the only energy source that can pull our GW fat out of the fire.

James Lovelock - Nuclear power is the only green solution

Opposition to nuclear energy is based on irrational fear fed by Hollywood-style fiction, the Green lobbies and the media. These fears are unjustified, and nuclear energy from its start in 1952 has proved to be the safest of all energy sources...

I find it sad and ironic that the UK, which leads the world in the quality of its Earth and climate scientists, rejects their warnings and advice, and prefers to listen to the Greens. But I am a Green and I entreat my friends in the movement to drop their wrongheaded objection to nuclear energy.

Even if they were right about its dangers, and they are not, its worldwide use as our main source of energy would pose an insignificant threat compared with the dangers of intolerable and lethal heat waves and sea levels rising to drown every coastal city of the world. We have no time to experiment with visionary energy sources; civilisation is in imminent danger and has to use nuclear - the one safe, available, energy source - now or suffer the pain soon to be inflicted by our outraged planet.
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Re: Plentiful Energy and the IFR Story

Unread postby diemos » Sun 19 Sep 2010, 16:29:07

Carlhole wrote:People like Dr. James Hansen recommend the IFR to solve or mitigate our global warming problems.


So do I. I just don't kid myself that we're ready to phone up GE and cut them a purchase order.
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Re: Plentiful Energy and the IFR Story

Unread postby efarmer » Sun 19 Sep 2010, 16:36:28

The best I have been able to decipher, General Electric and Hitachi who are joint ventured on the PRISM IFR reactor and are looking for a large investor (probably government) and hinting at 2030 for coming on line with the first commercial installations.
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Re: Plentiful Energy and the IFR Story

Unread postby Carlhole » Sun 19 Sep 2010, 16:50:45

Climate Bill Ignores Our Biggest Clean Energy Source

Other countries are building fourth generation nuclear reactors

Russia, China, and India are building fast nuclear reactors now and the French plan to begin construction in 2012 with completion by 2020. Japan plans to build a prototype fast reactor by 2025.

Russians scientists independently found the same thing the scientists at Argonne have been saying for years: these plants are safer and less expensive to build and operate than existing nuclear plants and they solve the nuclear waste problem while providing a virtually inexhaustible power source. The Russians also realized a key point that the 2003 MIT report on the Future of Nuclear Power had missed: that if nuclear power grows faster than people think, large scale deployment of fast reactors will absolutely be required in as little as 25 years from now (see the first paragraph of BN-800 as a New Stage in the Development of Fast Sodium-Cooled Reactors).

In the US, the complexity of understanding the science combined with an abundance of misperception and misinformation has stalled any progress on fast nuclear technology

Dr. Hansen and scientists at MIT are urging Obama to build fast reactors now. House Members Jerry McNerney (D-CA) and Judy Biggert (R-IL) agree.

But what about Al Gore? The environmental groups? What do they think? The problem is that there is so much misinformation in the nuclear space and the science is so complicated that it takes a reasonably large investment of time to really understand what is going on so you can sort truth from fiction. Al Gore has looked at fast reactors, but hasn't taken a position on the issue and it's likely he never will. The top environmental groups have either been too busy to be briefed, have no nuclear expert on staff qualified to be briefed, or have already taken an anti-nuclear position before the briefing and have no interest in impartially weighing the facts.

At the most recent Aspen Institute Energy Forum held March 25-28, the experts talked about how difficult tackling all three issues together: environment, economy, energy. Sure, I agree. It's difficult to impossible without the IFR. But the IFR enables us to solve all three simultaneously. But it wasn't brought up by anyone, even though the attendees acknowledged nuclear had to be part of the solution. This is a big problem that the "big thinker" experts assembled at Aspen seemed to be completely unaware of the world's best nuclear design.

The former top civilian nuclear guy at DOE thinks we are nuts for not pursuing this technology

Ray Hunter was Deputy Director of the Office of Nuclear Energy, Science and Technology in the U.S. DOE. At the time of his retirement in 1998, he was the most knowledgeable senior person in the government on civilian reactor research and development. He spent more than 29 years in DOE and predecessor agencies working on developing advanced nuclear reactors for civilian nuclear power applications. He's seen it all. He's heard all the arguments from every side multiple times. His conclusions are the same as Hansen; he thinks it is a huge mistake that we are not pursuing the IFR technology we invented at Argonne.
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Re: Plentiful Energy and the IFR Story

Unread postby Tanada » Sun 19 Sep 2010, 17:25:50

efarmer wrote:Excellent data Tanada, so are we to expect abandonment of all other reactor types for the IFR designs or will other factors drive the next commercially deployed reactors and if so, why?


Fast reactors are all about fuel efficiency, at least in a civilian context. That means that unless fuel is very limited their main selling point of fuel efficiency is moot. However they do have a secondary selling point, they consume the long lived actinides as part of their fuel matrix and deliver energy as a side effect. In an ideal world we would build a fleet of IFR design fast reactors as we reprocess our once through LWR fuel spent fuel stockpiles which results in separated Plutonium and the potential for all actinides separation.

For clarity think of it this way, you build a dozen IFR reactors that will essentially refuel themselves indefinitely provided about two cores worth of material at start up. To start each of them you take depleted uranium, which we have tens of thousands of tons of on hand, and blend it with the chemicals Neptunium, Plutonium, Americium, Curium and on up the table through Nobelium. Americium is rare in this blend and the higher up the table you go the rarer each element is because they are progressively harder to make. You need about 20% of the fuel mixture to be these chemicals seperated from LWR fuel after it has been used for a year or more in producing power. You get roughly 1% from each LWR each year of these elements in the spent fuel, so for efficient use you could build one IFR for every 10 LWR's operating in any given year in the USA or elsewhere. The thing is the USA had over 100 reactors operating for about 30 years by this time, so we could fuel 300 IFR plants for life with just the spent fuel we already have stockpiled. And as each year goes by we could fully fuel another 10 next year, and the year after that, and the year after that, for another 20 years into the future at least.

Each IFR would regenerate Plutonium from the 80% depleted Uranium in its core as it consumed the chemical mix of Actinides in its start up core, and every few months some of the core would be exchanged for fresh fuel from the second core set on site. Once the extracted fuel has cooled for about 240 days it would be electro-refined to extract the fission fragments from it, then depleted Uranium would be added to the mix to replace the fission fragments and it would be put in the que of stockpiled fuel at the plant site. Over time the proportion of the fuel which are actinides other than Uranium 238 and Plutonium would decrease as they get consumed and very little more is made in the IFR to replace them. There would always be a little Americium and even a little Curium, but everything heavier than that is very rarely made by fast neutrons.

So short answer, fuel for LWR's is not going to be in short supply for any reasonable future, but the civilian Plutonium and higher Actinides stockpile will keep growing until it gets burned up in fast reactors at some point. Why not start building IFR's now and use up these stockpiles now while we can make the effort safely instead of leaving all that spent fuel laying around for our descendants to deal with? Anti-nuclear protesters often point to civilian Plutonium as the Achilles' heel of nuclear fission. IFR's remove that problem while providing energy in the process. Not only do they remove the problem directly they avoid all the Plutonium transportation issues once their 2 initial core loads are delivered on site, after that all they need is depleted or recycled Uranium to make up for the fission fragments extracted.
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Re: Plentiful Energy and the IFR Story

Unread postby Carlhole » Sun 19 Sep 2010, 17:41:17

And why not settle on a design suitable for standardization and start building them now in order to solve our global warming problem? -- as Hansen and others are campaigning for.
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Re: Plentiful Energy and the IFR Story

Unread postby diemos » Sun 19 Sep 2010, 18:01:11

Carlhole wrote:And why not settle on a design suitable for standardization and start building them now in order to solve our global warming problem? -- as Hansen and others are campaigning for.


Because we have no actual operational experience with them. The first few will by necessity be learning experiences that will lead to a version 2.0 model.

However, yes, we should be building those first models today. Along with a variety of other technologies in the hope that at least one will be suitable for mass adoption.
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Re: Plentiful Energy and the IFR Story

Unread postby efarmer » Sun 19 Sep 2010, 18:17:13

Thanks Tanada for a great explanation. So simple economics will drive more LWR types and the aspect of disposing of long lived elements instead of entombing them,(if the arguments ever cease on how and where and when) would seem to offer the exploit of IFR types to become a portion of the reactor fleet in the long term. Am I correct to assume that the wide mix of elements to fuel the IFR would still require LWR reactors in the far long term when existing stocks of nuclear wastes would be fully exploited?

Even taking proliferation and transport risks into consideration, it seems that nations such as America and Russia and other legacy reactor operators would be greatly aided by pursuing IFR types in their fleet of base load generation reactors.

Some day when you are so disposed, please tutor us on how thorium ties into the mix.
Also, how a 3rd world reactor solution that perhaps worked in tandem with more secure nation
fuels processing including IFR usage would be interesting to consider. Obviously, the initial core
load for an IFR would make a nation so enabled, in possession of bomb grade materials as a by product,
(I assume it would still be a mix requiring highly skilled, but less intensive refinement though).

Even with our intractable liquid fuels issues, and fossil fuels players having bodacious lobbyist clout,
if seems like our baseload strategy deserves the upgrade of a long term nuclear complement with an eye towards nuclear dominance. Yes Carl, I agree there is merit, don't you dare jump to fusion while some of us are chewing on IFR.
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Re: Plentiful Energy and the IFR Story

Unread postby Carlhole » Sun 19 Sep 2010, 21:05:58

efarmer wrote:Yes Carl, I agree there is merit, don't you dare jump to fusion while some of us are chewing on IFR.


You know, once you understand the issues of the nuclear fuel cycle, fertile materials, fissile materials, costs, etc., there probably isn't a really good reason to develop pure fusion energy -- aside from the scientific and engineering challenge of it.

You can get uranium out of seawater and there is gobs of Thorium all over the place. Taking all sources of nuclear fuel into consideration, you could sustain our present civilization for hundreds of thousands of years.

Of course, people like James Hansen are not favoring IFR and Thorium reactors because of any perceived energy shortages; they are arguing for it because of the necessity of reducing greenhouse gas emissions. But in so doing, they calculate that we have mined enough fuel already to provide energy to run our civilization for a couple of hundred years.
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