[Loki]

I understand that point, Quinny. My question for you: in the post-oil world, how many Permies does it take to feed the 331 million US citizens?

Ideally 331 million. The US would be a much happier place.

A nation of farmers. Can't disagree with this.

To defend permies, I don't think anyone is laboring under the delusion that permaculture will “feed the world” in the immediate post-peak era. Ditto for the kind of organic row cropping I do.

There is no single solution, we need multiple solutions at all layers of society, from the individual to the collective. None of them will be perfect, and there's no guarantee that we'll actually be able to feed the world, even with the latest techno-industrial-chemical ag. Too many damn people on too small of a planet. Best most of us can do is look out for ourselves and our immediate community.

Careinke, what role do animals play in permaculture? My hogs are going to be slaughtered tomorrow morning, livestock has been on my mind all day.

[Loki]

But I'm at the end of a long career in high tech, and I have no interest in spending my remaining days as a subsistence farmer.. I expect to have a large vegetable garden at my retirement home, but as a hobby. Maybe I will take a crack at manufacturing the Rye whiskey or Applejack from my Grandfather's recipes if I get ambitious

What you want and what options reality presents can often be two entirely different things.

But the applejack plan isn't a bad one. As long as you have plenty of apples

[Shaved Monkey]

Re feeding the world
If you could feed them they would keep breeding until you couldnt.

Re animals in permiculture
They are your tractors weeders and fertilisers

google chicken tractors
they're your major soil prep technique and then run them through your food forest when its established for weed and pest control and fertilising
Ducks are good for pest control as the plants get bigger as they dont scratch the soil but may nip younger leaves if put in too early.
Pigs are heavy duty bull dozers with added fertiliser if you want some ground ploughed.
Guinea fowl are great pest control for cattle and orchards no digging but heaps of bug eating
Goats will sort out your blackberrys and most prickly weed problems.
and unlike a tractor they are delicious when they have finished there job and the soil is way more fertile and not compacted.

[Loki]

Re feeding the world
If you could feed them they would keep breeding until you couldnt.

Re animals in permiculture
They are your tractors weeders and fertilisers

google chicken tractors
they're your major soil prep technique and then run them through your food forest when its established for weed and pest control and fertilising
Ducks are good for pest control as the plants get bigger as they dont scratch the soil but may nip younger leaves if put in too early.
Pigs are heavy duty bull dozers with added fertiliser if you want some ground ploughed.
Guinea fowl are great pest control for cattle and orchards no digging but heaps of bug eating
Goats will sort out your blackberrys and most prickly weed problems.
and unlike a tractor they are delicious when they have finished there job and the soil is way more fertile and not compacted.

We have chicken tractors, ducks, hogs, and sheep on the farm. I'm familiar with animal agriculture.

To be more specific, how are these animals fed in a permaculture system? Our hogs and poultry are pastured, but mostly eat grain and soy (not grown here, of course). Pasture is a supplement. Good luck fattening hogs on pasture alone.

"Pastoral farming" a la Gene Logsdon interests me a lot, but IIRC even his system requires some annual grain production, even if it is "hogged down" instead of combine harvested. My understanding is that annual grains are pretty much verboten in permie circles.

[Shaved Monkey]

You grow the animals that can be supported by your system and develop your system to support the animals
The whole point of permaculture is to close the loop.
The major difference between organics and permaculture is with organics you still need shops and money.
Your farm exports energy as food and has to replace it with fertiliser,organic pesticides, mulch,animal food and diesel,money changes hands.

In permaculture if you want to have chooks sort these out first.(according to your climate and carrying capacity)
http://greenharvest.com.au/PoultrySuppl ... eSeed.html

Hogs will get pretty fat on sweet potato and that grows like a weed here and so does pigeon pea, madagascar, lab lab,cow pea, soy and mung beans and plenty of food scraps,make sure you have a few fruit and nut trees and a lots of pumpkins and melons (they grow nearly all year too).
But the point isnt really to fatten them to get them to market at a particular time,its to give them a good life and eat them when they finished their job or your hungry.
If the objective was to solely to sell your meat then really you are exporting energy out of your system this would need to be replaced from outside your system.
One simple way to do this in a permaculture way, could be by bartering some pork for pig food.
If pigs or chooks couldnt be supported by your system them maybe guinea pigs,fish, quails, rabbits or pigeons could.

[Ibon]

with only 72 hours of instruction and the right motivation.

I'm waiting for the 72 minute version that instructs you where to place yourself in a horizontal position in the landscape so that the falling nuts and fruits fall right into your mouth. Designed in such a way that you don't even have to get up because when you pee your piss will flow through your pineapples and your poop will roll down next to the dung beetle bin where the scarabs will roll your poop into balls and carry them down to the roots of the kentucky blue stem grass which will grow a roof over your head.

[Pops]

I can certainly see where some people could consider it a religion. It certainly changes your paradigm, and some seem to treat it like that. Actually, to me it seems more like science, or maybe a trade.

Don't get me wrong, I think anything that gets people to think about something aside from their next selfie is a good thing.

As for feeding the world, production ag is a business like any other. Farmers seek efficiency and profit and either react to whatever conditions arise or go broke and someone else tries. Calorie farming is so incredibly efficient now I think it will be a long way down before we're all subsistence farming.

Which isn't to say we should do nothing and just wait for someone else to make things happen. Even though I'm a bleeding heart leftist I have no illusions that everyone is the same or that everyone will look out for number one if things get hard - including me ;^)

I think one of the best permie principles in light of PO and personal prep is the idea to be observant and really try to consider your land and methods for a time before making major decisions. That goes double if you are new to farming and/or new to a particular climate. On my 40 ac there are at least 3 soil types and 3 types of drainage, rocky, shallow soil to deep silty loam; and droughty to periodically swamped due to a perched water table. Although the house predates widespread auto use the outbuildings and fencelines are mostly newer and of course laid out with less consideration to the topography than to the road since they were planned in the heyday of oil in the '50s and '60s. Contour plowing isn't practiced much around here any more even though shelter belts and swales are still evident. Lots of farms show considerable erosion. I try improving pastures using periodic mowing and even then I mow on the contour. I bought a subsoiler last year after the drought and have been ripping on the contour to encourage absorption.

I haven't run new fences yet, it's only been 8 years, LOL. Having come from a Mediterranean near-desert climate to a Continental climate I'm still learning but I'm getting some feel for how things work here - which in a word is very, very variable. I've read more about the keyline idea more than the other permie concept.

Using the natural flows of water and nutrients and considering gravity regarding animals and crops will be much more important once energy slaves get tired of hauling our stuff around. Harder to plan for since we are so used to doing nothing by main might is planning for movement of heavy or bulky items, it's something I think about a lot. An great example of considering manpower over oil power is my shop, built by the Amish mechanic who lived here for a while before us. It's built on a slight slope with a big 14' x 16' drive-in door on one end and a smaller 8'x10' door over a 3' dock at the other. I can drive a wagon, pickup or even a semi trailer up to the dock to load, unload or transfer pretty well anything just by rolling it in/out the big door and onto/of off of the dock. The framing is even designed in a way to support the gantry crane that covers the entire 40' x 40' floor including a loft storage area. It seems like a small thing but if you are building a shop and know you aren't going to ever use electric motors to help move stuff it makes huge sense.

There isn't any one particular right way since there isn't one particular future any of us can predict. I think taking ideas from whatever discipline and melding them with whatever future we each see coming is the best way forward, at least someone will be successful.

[Pops]

You're right Pete, it's dog eat dog and always will be. But the most sure way to lose to the house is to play the house game. Farm folks who want HiDef TV and iPhones and expensive cars and boats are no more immune to the rules than anyone else.

But even if you're hard scrabble and like it that way you can still lose. My folks were Okies though not geographically in the main part of the dust bowl, they got free grazing land in the Run, then got free oil in the teens but then went broke when the oil played out and cattle became worthless in the 30's. I have a note to the bank from when they borrowed against a couple of cows and my grandma's pony to pay the taxes. Not sure about the true circumstances, the family legend of course lays off the blame.

Upthread Careinke talked about using surpluses today to invest in permanent improvements to your property for the sake of preparing for the future. If you can make your spot as efficient as possible in as permanent a fashion as possible, it makes sense that you'll be able to hold it easier. In my mind, having a spot is job one. For what ever reason the thing I fear the most is being on the road with no place to go, maybe it's that family history.

[Loki]

But the point isnt really to fatten them to get them to market at a particular time,its to give them a good life and eat them when they finished their job or your hungry.
If the objective was to solely to sell your meat then really you are exporting energy out of your system this would need to be replaced from outside your system.
One simple way to do this in a permaculture way, could be by bartering some pork for pig food.

I'm getting the sense that permaculture is limited to backyard gardens and subsistence homesteads. Does anyone make a living---in our real cash-based society---doing permaculture? And I mean besides teaching, or having a wife who's an optometrist

I basically do trade pork for pig food, only with a cash middleman. The hogs pay for themselves, plus fill my freezer with meat. Bartering for everything would make the process considerably more difficult.

I'd be interested in exploring raising poultry and other livestock entirely on perennial pasture or in a food forest, but there's that pesky 400-lb gorilla hanging on my back that requires me to earn cash in order to live in our current reality. The livestock are going to have to bring in cash or I won't be able to afford to keep them around. Simple as that. If I was independently wealthy or had an optometrist wife who didn't mind me spending her money, things might be different

[Shaved Monkey]

I'm getting the sense that permaculture is limited to backyard gardens and subsistence homesteads. Does anyone make a living---in our real cash-based society---doing permaculture? And I mean besides teaching, or having a wife who's an optometrist

How real is our cash based society ?
Today in Greece if your wife was an optometrist she would probably be getting paid in produce.

Originally an anti-capitalist initiative, like many of the free bartering markets that have sprung up in Greece, the time bank does not let market forces set the value of members' labour.
“We believe that we are all equal - one hour of a doctor's time is equal to the hour of a cleaning lady,” says Christine.
“Right now we only have two doctors” in the bank.

http://www.ekathimerini.com/4dcgi/_w_ar ... 012_445234

[Loki]

How real is our cash based society ?

As real as food, clothing, and shelter. I barter when I can for stuff, e.g., I used someone else's land, electric fencing, sheds, etc. to raise my hogs in exchange for pork and clearing out an area that was consumed by blackberries. I've reduced my personal cash expenses to a bare minimum the last few years, I pay no rent/mortgage, grow and can a lot of my own food, pay no electric or water bills, etc. My boss barters veg for dental care, among other things.

But bartering only goes so far. 99.9% of us still need cash to operate in our economy. I get my cash from working on a row crop farm, plus a bit from raising hogs. The only way I see our cash-based system changing is if we see a total, Mad Max level collapse of society. I put this in the 'unlikely' category.

So is permaculture basically opposed to all forms of commercial agriculture? How do permies make a living? IMHO, all surplus wealth in our society comes from the land. A homesteading permie living off his optometrist wife's salary is, in effect, living off the surplus wealth created by farmers (among others).

Again, I'm not trying to nitpick or start a fight about permaculture. I hear a lot of theory about it but not so much practice, except at a very small scale. I'll be happy to be proven wrong.

[Shaved Monkey]

Basically permaculture is about improving your soil and designing and building systems that work, while constantly aiming to close the loop.
Obviously not owning land is a major part of the problem as all your effort can be wiped away on a whim of the land lord.
So for you to build systems is of very little benefit to you,long term.
Your situation is not perfect for a collapse scenario
Basic organics that includes money and shops in the loop isnt going to hold up in a collapse scenario.
You need to own land debt free or as in Cuba use land debt free which isnt going to happen in the US.
....and set up sustainable systems with a view to the long term.

* This is only if you believe that there will be a collapse scenario where you get forced from your land job and food supply and shelter.
If not your system may see you through.

This article may help.
http://permaculturenews.org/2013/11/01/ ... debt-free/
The other alternative is partnerships or co ops or get a crap job with lots of money and save up or buy land in a cheaper country and move there.

Basically if you have land and set up a self sustaining system the amount of money you need to survive will massively decrease.
As you need less money to survive, your leisure time increases and so should your standard of living.
If part of that system is to educate people on how to do the same thats cool, if its making jam thats cool, if its raising biodynamic beef and chickens and eggs thats cool,If its ecotourism thats cool.
If you make nothing and your wife can make money in the medical profession thats cool too, but its not going to be sustainable unless you use it to invest in systems and infrastructure that will make it sustainable for when its gone.
In a worst case scenario, if money is worthless, the only thing you can trade is skills and food and shiny things.
Shiny things will only have value if they too can be traded for food and skills.
If you can sort your water,food,energy and shelter for virtually nothing your doing pretty well, whether it totally collapses or not.

Obviously it takes a paradigm shift.

[DejahThoris]

We started with two acres of junk land four years ago and have built up the soil to the point that this past summer we were able to raise enough corn, potatoes, tomatoes, peas, beans, beets, etc. to get us through the year. Last fall we vacuumed up a mountain of leaves from the fields at the edge of the forest and stored them; in the spring we mulched all our crops and were able to completely able to eliminate pesticides; the leaves attracted so many toads and creatures they kept the bugs in check. Problem? It took a ton of gasoline to vacuum up enough leaves. This fall the cost of gas to gather up the leaves really hurt us. Back when we used pesticide we tilled the soil by hand, but there's no way we can get enough leaves by hand raking to stay organic. So its either go organic and rely on the tractor and pay the price for gas, or its hand till and use pesticides. Which is better? What will we do when the cost of gas goes higher? I'm for organic but I can't see how you can raise enough food crops to live on without a tractor. So how sustainable is that? Any suggestions?

[Tanada]

We started with two acres of junk land four years ago and have built up the soil to the point that this past summer we were able to raise enough corn, potatoes, tomatoes, peas, beans, beets, etc. to get us through the year. Last fall we vacuumed up a mountain of leaves from the fields at the edge of the forest and stored them; in the spring we mulched all our crops and were able to completely able to eliminate pesticides; the leaves attracted so many toads and creatures they kept the bugs in check. Problem? It took a ton of gasoline to vacuum up enough leaves. This fall the cost of gas to gather up the leaves really hurt us. Back when we used pesticide we tilled the soil by hand, but there's no way we can get enough leaves by hand raking to stay organic. So its either go organic and rely on the tractor and pay the price for gas, or its hand till and use pesticides. Which is better? What will we do when the cost of gas goes higher? I'm for organic but I can't see how you can raise enough food crops to live on without a tractor. So how sustainable is that? Any suggestions?

Tars Tarkus sends his regards My suggestion would be if you live near a town ask what they do with all the leaves they collect, some communities are more than eager to dump off a truck load or two for anyone who wants them. In addition to that have you experimented with adding biochar to your soil and/or kugel culture where you bury chunks of wood 12 to 24 inches deep as a semi permanent water storage feature? Welcome to the board!

[DejahThoris]

Thank you Tanada, that's a wonderful suggestion to ask for leaves. Never thought of it. I was in Lancaster Pennsylvania yesterday and saw city trucks vacuuming up leaves on the city streets; I was really coveting them! Maybe I'll put a free ad in the paper volunteering to accept leaves. They do double duty; prevent weeds and invite bug eating toads.
I've never heard of bio char but this fall we started burying wood as we turned over soil. My husband noticed as we were gathering leaves, that the soil around rotting tree trunks never seemed to get dry, not even in the dryest time of the year. We're retired so we have lots of time but no money. We rely on the forest around us to provide what we can't afford.
We've been reading the site for years and appreciate all the valuable information. Thanks to everyone!

[Shaved Monkey]

I've always encouraged garden contractors to dump everyone else's lawn clipping and leaves at my place to save them time and a tip/dump fee.
A lot easier at my old place in the temperate climate in the suburbs of a large city.
Most of the local guys here all have ride ons, with no catchers now, but I still get some and rake up the empty block near me after they leave.

[careinke]

Thank you Tanada, that's a wonderful suggestion to ask for leaves. Never thought of it. I was in Lancaster Pennsylvania yesterday and saw city trucks vacuuming up leaves on the city streets; I was really coveting them! Maybe I'll put a free ad in the paper volunteering to accept leaves. They do double duty; prevent weeds and invite bug eating toads.
I've never heard of bio char but this fall we started burying wood as we turned over soil. My husband noticed as we were gathering leaves, that the soil around rotting tree trunks never seemed to get dry, not even in the dryest time of the year. We're retired so we have lots of time but no money. We rely on the forest around us to provide what we can't afford.
We've been reading the site for years and appreciate all the valuable information. Thanks to everyone!

This site http://www.permies.com/ has a lot of information on building soil. It is heavily slanted towards Hugelkulture as the site owner is a huge fan of Sep Holzer.

How are you using the left over biomass from your crops? You might want to consider a relatively large vermi-composting and worm juice collection system, instead of just throwing them to a regular compost heap.

Of course pulling leaves out of the waste stream is also an excellent idea.

[DejahThoris]

Thanks for the website! My husband was really excited about it. We've been sort of flying blind, but seem to be doing the right thing so far. Yesterday we cut up a fallen tree and traded it for a load of manure. We're zoned residential so we can't have livestock. We compost our pea vines, cornstalks and other garden waste, and work them in. When we started four years ago there wasn't a single earthworm to be seen, but now just turn over the soil and you get a handful. We're so grateful for the information. We plan to be around a long time and to hand the farm on to our kids, so this permiculture information means so much to us. Thank you again! By the way, my husband's grandfather was Cyrus Swope, one of the original organic farmers. You can read about him on the internet. But all his kids (he had fourteen) rejected his methods and went for big tractors, pesticide and chemical fertilizers. My husband wishes he had paid attention to Grandpa when he was growing up! We're glad someone preserved this life saving information.

[Tanada]

Thanks for the website! My husband was really excited about it. We've been sort of flying blind, but seem to be doing the right thing so far. Yesterday we cut up a fallen tree and traded it for a load of manure. We're zoned residential so we can't have livestock. We compost our pea vines, cornstalks and other garden waste, and work them in. When we started four years ago there wasn't a single earthworm to be seen, but now just turn over the soil and you get a handful. We're so grateful for the information. We plan to be around a long time and to hand the farm on to our kids, so this permiculture information means so much to us. Thank you again! By the way, my husband's grandfather was Cyrus Swope, one of the original organic farmers. You can read about him on the internet. But all his kids (he had fourteen) rejected his methods and went for big tractors, pesticide and chemical fertilizers. My husband wishes he had paid attention to Grandpa when he was growing up! We're glad someone preserved this life saving information.

I know you are working with just two acres but you might want to get a copy of Mark Shepherds book Restoration Agriculture, it is really good as well.

Making your own biochar is easy peasy, to make a small batch for say your herb garden you just need an old pot you might be replacing that has a lid that fits well. You fill it most of the way with twigs or dry vegetable matter, put the lid on securely and then put it on a small fire outside and keep the fire going for a few hours. It does not need to be a big fire, which is the first mistake many people make, and the lid does have to fit fairly tightly so you might put an old brick or rock on top of the lid. After a few hours you take the pot off the fire and let it cool before you open it. The heat should have driven off the water and vapors in the plant material so when it is cool you can take the lid off and inside you will find char. If you use leaves to do this stirring with a stick will give you char powder that you can work into the soil, which adds lots of carbon to the soil, helps the useful lichen in the root area grow and helps retain nitrogen and such to help the plants grow.