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PERMACULTURE & PEAK OIL: Beyond 'Sustainability

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Re: PERMACULTURE & PEAK OIL: Beyond 'Sustainability

Unread postby careinke » Fri 08 Nov 2013, 03:02:08

OK, 10 Random facts on Permaculture.

1. The latest number I have heard is there are 75,000 certified permaculturists world wide (and the number is growing fast). Personally I'm thinking it has hit or close to hitting critical mass.

2. This works out to one certified Permie to 100,000 people. Only about 1 in ten certified Permie actually teaches a Permaculture Design Course. Anyone see a source of income here????

3. Permies believe that knowledge without action is worthless, so I wouild be pretty surprised to see a Permie NOT get his/her hands dirty.

4. A climax food forest takes at least ten years to reach that point, since Permaculture wasn't formalized until the seventies, there are not a lot of them around but they exist. There are however sustainable food forests hundreds if not thousands of years old.

Here is a former Organic Orchard converted to a permaculture orchard:
http://vimeo.com/78527630

I don't think he teaches Permaculture, but I'm not sure. His orchard produces more, takes significantly less work, and very few external inputs.

5. No matter how sustainable or self sufficient you are today, you still need money. I can't barter with the government for my property taxes I need money for that. That said, you should need much less money, the less the better. Like all permaculture efforts, you should seek diversity in your income, ideally 3-5 different sources.

6. Permies love to pull stuff from the waste streams, and find new uses for them.

7. Permaculturists are a recognized specialty by the United Nations and used in disaster relief efforts among other things.

8. Probably if you know a Permie, he teaches, just by the mere fact they advertise so are more visible.

9. Permies come from all walks of life, all religions, all political persuasions, and all parts of the world.

10. Not all permie techniques work everywhere, it depends on climate, latitude, elevation etc. But a certified Permie knows which techniques to use no matter where in the world he goes to.
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Re: PERMACULTURE & PEAK OIL: Beyond 'Sustainability

Unread postby careinke » Fri 08 Nov 2013, 04:09:30

Loki wrote:
careinke wrote:there are lots of databases out there for finding plants based on permaculture criteria.

Databases are all fine and well, I've learned a lot from books and the internet. But a small fraction of what I've learned by dealing hands-on with the plants in question.

Frankly, a permaculturist would have a much much easier time developing the site.

Perhaps. But still, I like to think there's a bit of a gap between someone who's taken a 72-hour online landscape design course versus someone who has 10,000+ hours of hands-on work experience in arboriculture and organic farming, plus 800+ hours of formal horticulture education. Not that I'm bitter :wink:

As it turns out, I think the next couple years will turn out to be just as interesting, if not as remunerative, as the permie job. My boss bought a 50-acre tree nursery, which he plans on converting into an organic farm; I'll be managing the tree part during the transition. I must say, he's lucky to have a tree guy like me on board :lol:

Might take the permie course one of these days, but arborist certification is a higher priority. I have the work experience and education, just need to take a multiple choice test and write a big fat check to the ISA. The test is easy, but do you have any idea how many tomatoes I have to harvest/process for $350? I shudder to think. Shelling out a grand for a permie cert is out of the question right now.


I really struggled with shelling out the bucks, but for me I'm glad I did. Plus I have an advantage of several passive income streams. I've been approached several times to design or teach specific Permaculture topics. Without much effort I am pretty sure I could recoup the investment. Actually, under the principle of obtain a yield, I should. But heck, I'm retired and I have a place to prep for the coming great great grandchildren. 8)

As far as hours, you can be a certified pilot with even less than 72 hours of training. Does your thousands of hours of horticulture experience qualify you to be a pilot? Plants are only a part of permaculture. You also have shelter, heating, cooling, water management, cooking, animal management, community, surveying, aquaponics, pattern application, earthworks etc....

Please don't get me wrong, I respect and envy your horticultural experience. I'm just now getting into plant propagation. That knowledge will save me Lots and Lots of money and allow me to afford the number of plants I need.

As a side note, I just joined the local fruit club. What an awesome cheap resource for plants and knowledge. One lady built a sixty foot espaliered apple fence with sixty types of apple trees arranged in order of ripen date! So cool. Another has an apple tree with 29 varieties grafted to it. Of the 40 or so members I have met so far. Some use chemicals, some don't, some are master gardeners, none of them have heard of permaculture. Anyway I'm excited about joining the club.

With your horticulture knowledge and income level, I would be willing to bet, you could set up some sort of trade and get your cert from a local Permie without paying out a grand.
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Re: PERMACULTURE & PEAK OIL: Beyond 'Sustainability

Unread postby KaiserJeep » Fri 08 Nov 2013, 05:38:48

There are roughly speaking, 2.2 million people in the USA who count as farmers of one variety or another. This of course includes the permaculture experts or "permies".

Source: http://www.epa.gov/oecaagct/ag101/demographics.html

Each one of them feeds about 144 people in the USA - and actually more than that, counting food exports.

You say the certified permies are about 1 in 100,000. But (I read carefully) you did not claim that permies were trying to each feed 100,000.

My question is, how many permies have to labor to feed 144 people, the present ratio of farmers to other professions?

I'm thinking that if the answer is significantly more than ONE, permaculture is not going to be accepted as a viable replacement for what you call "industrial agriculture".
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Re: PERMACULTURE & PEAK OIL: Beyond 'Sustainability

Unread postby Quinny » Fri 08 Nov 2013, 07:17:15

I live in a region that depends heavily on Agriculture. The local Agrofood businesses are falling like flies because of increasing costs particularly fuel (agricultural, transport and heating costs (for greehouses)) and 'raw materials' seeds/fertiliser. Local permaculture setups are not being hit to the same degree. Having said that most are self supporters with a small surplus and mainly outside the 'mainstream business' world.

It's really a case of give (or sell) a man a fish or teach him how to fish!
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Re: PERMACULTURE & PEAK OIL: Beyond 'Sustainability

Unread postby KaiserJeep » Fri 08 Nov 2013, 07:44:20

Quinny, I respect a genuine believer and someone who has mastered a new skill that makes him more self sufficient. But I'm at the end of a long career in high tech, and I have no interest in spending my remaining days as a subsistence farmer. I expect to have a large vegetable garden at my retirement home, but as a hobby. Maybe I will take a crack at manufacturing the Rye whiskey or Applejack from my Grandfather's recipes if I get ambitious.
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Re: PERMACULTURE & PEAK OIL: Beyond 'Sustainability

Unread postby Pops » Fri 08 Nov 2013, 08:44:25

I think the problem isn't that Permaculture ideas are bad, I think the problem is that the word is capitalized and copyrighted. I don't think there is much argument that perennials, whether trees or grass or small fruits or whatever have advantages over annuals in a sustainability/survival sense. Or that the kitchen garden should be close to the kitchen or that straight-line plowing on rolling ground is a bad thing. It's just that I've always had the feeling that all things P are good and all things non-P are less so, it isn't that P favors one religion over another, it's that P is a religion unto itself, LOL

The food forest bit seems to me an attempt at recreating a hunter gatherer existence, yes? It doesn't attempt to replace modern or even less than modern ag, the whole idea is not high yield but low input, that's great as far as it goes. Obviously it isn't a societal solution for a post-energy-slave world but then I don't really have a clue what is.
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Re: PERMACULTURE & PEAK OIL: Beyond 'Sustainability

Unread postby Shaved Monkey » Fri 08 Nov 2013, 09:06:02

In permaculture the yield can be cranked up by more input, but only the apply the effort where/if its needed.
and maybe it is the post peak oil solution we just arent hungry enough yet.

Permaculure is not just about growing food its about growing community.

The food and energy crisis of the early 1990′s stimulated the development of a vibrant and thriving permaculture movement in Cuba.
While receiving some initial support and training from brigades of Australian permaculture volunteers, the leadership, growth and direction of the movement was quickly taken up by the Cubans themselves

http://theurbanfarmer.ca/cuba-programs/ ... nternship/
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Re: PERMACULTURE & PEAK OIL: Beyond 'Sustainability

Unread postby careinke » Fri 08 Nov 2013, 12:48:32

Pops wrote:I think the problem isn't that Permaculture ideas are bad, I think the problem is that the word is capitalized and copyrighted. I don't think there is much argument that perennials, whether trees or grass or small fruits or whatever have advantages over annuals in a sustainability/survival sense. Or that the kitchen garden should be close to the kitchen or that straight-line plowing on rolling ground is a bad thing. It's just that I've always had the feeling that all things P are good and all things non-P are less so, it isn't that P favors one religion over another, it's that P is a religion unto itself, LOL

The food forest bit seems to me an attempt at recreating a hunter gatherer existence, yes? It doesn't attempt to replace modern or even less than modern ag, the whole idea is not high yield but low input, that's great as far as it goes. Obviously it isn't a societal solution for a post-energy-slave world but then I don't really have a clue what is.


It's true that the word Permaculture is copyrighted, but it is released for use to all that have successfully completed the 72 hours of material. This way you know a permaculturist has the core information needed and understands the ethics and principles. In addition a permaculturist can pass on that knowledge and the student once completing the required work is then allowed to use the word for free. Sort of like organic certification without the bureaucracy.

I can certainly see where some people could consider it a religion. It certainly changes your paradigm, and some seem to treat it like that. Actually, to me it seems more like science, or maybe a trade.
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Re: PERMACULTURE & PEAK OIL: Beyond 'Sustainability

Unread postby Quinny » Fri 08 Nov 2013, 12:58:15

I'm no expert, and though having powered down and living a simpler life have had lots of failures on the gardening front mainly because of not spending enough (consistent) time in garden (I have been more or less re-building a house at the same time though). My neighbour's all tend to produce more vegetables than me, but much less variety and using much more land and 'inputs'. They end up giving most of their vegetables away to family and friends (including me). I don't know why I bother with potatoes and beetroots I get so many given.

The point made about yields is misleading, it's ignoring the fact that you usually have several crops and several harvests from the same plot. The link given was for organic farming which is a totally different beast to permaculture.
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Re: PERMACULTURE & PEAK OIL: Beyond 'Sustainability

Unread postby KaiserJeep » Fri 08 Nov 2013, 13:48:59

I understand that point, Quinny. My question for you: in the post-oil world, how many Permies does it take to feed the 331 million US citizens?

Surely you don't want them living amongst the Permie farmers, because you would not have any vegetables left for yourself.

I simply cannot let go of the paradigm I have help onto my whole life: working for the greater good of all 331 million people. Maybe that's the problem I am having with Permaculture, because it is not a solution that saves all of us.

My own work products over the last 35 years have enabled electronic banking, online financial transactions, and stocks and commodities exchanges. All over the world. I am in search of a solution that applies to all 7.1 billions of us.
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Re: PERMACULTURE & PEAK OIL: Beyond 'Sustainability

Unread postby KaiserJeep » Fri 08 Nov 2013, 16:49:24

Well said, I will ponder your words.

I go to the Farmer's Market every week, and I tend to buy Organic produce when I can. It tastes a lot better is the reason, and is typically sold when fully ripe. But it does cost more.
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Re: PERMACULTURE & PEAK OIL: Beyond 'Sustainability

Unread postby Shaved Monkey » Fri 08 Nov 2013, 18:18:31

KaiserJeep wrote:I understand that point, Quinny. My question for you: in the post-oil world, how many Permies does it take to feed the 331 million US citizens?
Surely you don't want them living amongst the Permie farmers, because you would not have any vegetables left for yourself.

Its an illogical question.
331 million are not going to survive in a worst case scenario no matter which system you have,thats a fact.
Lots of people will starve,get sick, go mad and kill each other first.
Its will be just like in nature when you too many animals feeding around the water hole and it drys up.
But in permaculture that would be looked at as a steady supply of nutrient to be utilised to increase food production,not a waste that needs to be disposed of.

Im not sure of the percentage of Cubans that work in Agriculture but without taking climate into account,it would require a similar shift in localised urban growing.
So yes you would want to live amongst them and grow with them or you wouldn't get any, unless you had something to barter, other than toilet paper with presidents heads printed on it.
Food miles in Cuba are measured in feet not miles.
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Re: PERMACULTURE & PEAK OIL: Beyond 'Sustainability

Unread postby careinke » Fri 08 Nov 2013, 18:28:33

KaiserJeep wrote:I understand that point, Quinny. My question for you: in the post-oil world, how many Permies does it take to feed the 331 million US citizens?


Ideally 331 million. The US would be a much happier place. :)
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Re: PERMACULTURE & PEAK OIL: Beyond 'Sustainability

Unread postby Quinny » Fri 08 Nov 2013, 18:33:05

Don't know, but the more the better. The few current Permies will feed a hell of a lot more than conventional agriculture. The more enthusiastic Permies we can train/enlighten, the less starvation.

KaiserJeep wrote:I understand that point, Quinny. My question for you: in the post-oil world, how many Permies does it take to feed the 331 million US citizens?

Surely you don't want them living amongst the Permie farmers, because you would not have any vegetables left for yourself.

I simply cannot let go of the paradigm I have help onto my whole life: working for the greater good of all 331 million people. Maybe that's the problem I am having with Permaculture, because it is not a solution that saves all of us.

My own work products over the last 35 years have enabled electronic banking, online financial transactions, and stocks and commodities exchanges. All over the world. I am in search of a solution that applies to all 7.1 billions of us.
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Re: PERMACULTURE & PEAK OIL: Beyond 'Sustainability

Unread postby ralfy » Fri 08 Nov 2013, 23:17:37

KaiserJeep wrote:There are roughly speaking, 2.2 million people in the USA who count as farmers of one variety or another. This of course includes the permaculture experts or "permies".

Source: http://www.epa.gov/oecaagct/ag101/demographics.html

Each one of them feeds about 144 people in the USA - and actually more than that, counting food exports.

You say the certified permies are about 1 in 100,000. But (I read carefully) you did not claim that permies were trying to each feed 100,000.

My question is, how many permies have to labor to feed 144 people, the present ratio of farmers to other professions?

I'm thinking that if the answer is significantly more than ONE, permaculture is not going to be accepted as a viable replacement for what you call "industrial agriculture".


I think in the end, it's not a question of how one will have to figure out how to feed the other 144, but how the other 144 will be able to feed themselves.
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Re: PERMACULTURE & PEAK OIL: Beyond 'Sustainability

Unread postby Shaved Monkey » Sat 09 Nov 2013, 01:18:24

I cant find the exact quote from Bill Mollison but with the death off people, due to rising sea levels, their will be a massive increase in the number of scavengers due to the increased food supply,so there will be plenty of lobster diners for the survivors.
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Re: PERMACULTURE & PEAK OIL: Beyond 'Sustainability

Unread postby SeaGypsy » Sat 09 Nov 2013, 01:41:58

Apparently critters like Jellyfish and Squid are doing quite well. Orlov says the future will belong to seafaring Gypsies who eat 'Sqib' and trade permaculture produce.
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Re: PERMACULTURE & PEAK OIL: Beyond 'Sustainability

Unread postby Scrub Puller » Sat 09 Nov 2013, 02:37:08

Yair . . . Folks following this thread may find this sustainable farming system of interest.

The machine is designed to ease the workload of small scale farming and with simple and inexpensive implements will perform all the operations needed to produce most vegetable and berry crops.

It works but, as yet, the concept is too radical for farmers who are used to growing crops in straight rows. As shown the unit is running with a 2Kw VFD but the plan was to fit it with panels and batteries and be independent of the grid.

It can be completely automated but that is another story. Another application is in the large scale processing of wood chips and green waste into compost . . . all semi-automated and the one machine can service several half acre by six foot deep circular piles.

After four prototypes and several thousand hours of testing we could not find any backers and due to some temporary ill health and lack of finance we have had to let our patents lapse.

http://www.heavyequipmentforums.com/sho ... ion-system

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