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PeakOil is You

PeakOil is You

Peak oil: Do you want it to occur?

General discussions of the systemic, societal and civilisational effects of depletion.

Do you want oil production to peak, sometime in the reasonably near future?

Yes I do
103
53%
No I don't
93
47%
 
Total votes : 196

Re: Peak oil: Do you want it to occur?

Unread postby s0cks » Tue 29 Apr 2008, 23:45:22

Well the first 4mths of 2008 have definitely gone the peakists way. I wonder if this whole thread would have been different had it been started now?

Personally I want peak oil to happen. Peak oil has opened my eyes to a LOT of other issues. Not just resource depletion, but political issues, environmental issues, health, consumerism, etc... And in almost all cases, the way we are heading is not good. I'm not going to go into a massive post, but when you consider, topsoil, fresh water, global warming, depression/suicide rate, cancer rate, food crisis, etc... its all pretty bleak stuff, and perhaps it would be better to rethink and start fresh.

Had you asked me this a few months, or even a year after my discovery of "finite oil", hehe, then I would have outright said no, but it has led me to find other knowledge.

This doesn't mean, however, I can advance or delay peak oil. I can't will it on, or stop it from happening. So, if they found 5 new SA's next week, then I would be disappointed, but I wouldn't deny that it would offset peak for quite some time.

I think, Oil-Finder, that you will find it hard to disuade peakists just by giving them "estimated" reserve numbers, "possible" flow rates, and "projected" production figures. The talk of building 35,000 wells for example is certaintly technically possible, but in the realms of normality its a mammoth and unlikely task. I think we just prefer to believe in what we can see. Until a field actually produces x amount its all just guesswork, and certaintly recently, its seems that things are getting worse than previously "guessed" (not just with oil).
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Re: Peak oil: Do you want it to occur?

Unread postby copious.abundance » Wed 30 Apr 2008, 03:08:15

s0cks wrote:I think, Oil-Finder, that you will find it hard to disuade peakists just by giving them "estimated" reserve numbers, "possible" flow rates, and "projected" production figures . . .

Well, all that talk was kinda off-topic anyway. The real question was what people wanted to happen, regardless of more technical issues.

The results of this poll have swung toward the 'no' side of late. For a while it was mildly in favor of the 'yes' side.
Stuff for doomers to contemplate:
http://peakoil.com/forums/post1190117.html#p1190117
http://peakoil.com/forums/post1193930.html#p1193930
http://peakoil.com/forums/post1206767.html#p1206767
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Re: Peak oil: Do you want it to occur?

Unread postby hironegro » Wed 30 Apr 2008, 05:48:04

OilFinder2 wrote:Well, all that talk was kinda off-topic anyway. The real question was what people wanted to happen, regardless of more technical issues.

The results of this poll have swung toward the 'no' side of late. For a while it was mildly in favor of the 'yes' side.


What technical issues would dissuade peakists? Especially when one of your home boys like Jeremy Bentham see's plateauing of to conventional oil around 2015.
Last edited by hironegro on Thu 01 May 2008, 15:52:30, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Peak oil: Do you want it to occur?

Unread postby sittinguy » Thu 01 May 2008, 10:38:00

Yes, I want it to happen.
So this rat race will end and some of us can get back to what is real in life. And this corrupt government can be cleaned OUT

So all the people that live above their means and are in debt to their asses will have to pay the piper.

So all the rich jerks that think their money will save them will SOL.

So all the preps I made don't go to waste.

I'm looking forward to riding my bike to the super market and the hardware store.

I want to see some riots,,, yeah RIOTS, crackheads gettin beat down.

Everyone will be packin heat, yeah HEAT, crackheads gettin beat down

Mostly I,m sick of waiting, I don't want to be to old when all this really gets going, but I want my kids to be a little older, so 5 more years of the sham of a life we live would be good.
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Re: Peak oil: Do you want it to occur?

Unread postby SOS » Mon 05 May 2008, 01:35:31

s0cks wrote:Personally I want peak oil to happen. Peak oil has opened my eyes to a LOT of other issues. Not just resource depletion, but political issues, environmental issues, health, consumerism, etc... And in almost all cases, the way we are heading is not good. I'm not going to go into a massive post, but when you consider, topsoil, fresh water, global warming, depression/suicide rate, cancer rate, food crisis, etc... its all pretty bleak stuff, and perhaps it would be better to rethink and start fresh.

Had you asked me this a few months, or even a year after my discovery of "finite oil", hehe, then I would have outright said no, but it has led me to find other knowledge.



Very well said.

Peak Oil has forced us all to confront the most fundamental underpinnings of society as it has evolved over the past 150 years (since the discovery of oil). Peak Oil awareness has shown us that the vast majority of modern commercial society is built on an unsustainable house of cards ....... and PO awareness has revealed to us the deepseated and escalating corruption which inheres in any regime which desperately tries to cling to this unsustainable illusory existence.

The only way to rid society of its overpowering addiction to oil (with all of the negative consequences which flow from that addiction) is complete and total deprivation / abstention. Peak Oil is the only cure for this insidious addiction.
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Re: Peak oil: Do you want it to occur?

Unread postby ugh » Mon 05 May 2008, 18:51:41

Bring it on.

No junkie ever got better with another "fix"
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Re: Peak oil: Do you want it to occur?

Unread postby patience » Wed 07 May 2008, 19:53:07

An old fellow was in my shop the other day, and talk turned to high prices and hard times. He said we haven't seen hard times yet. He's 91, and lived through the 1930's depression. His comment was that people will do ANYTHING if they are hurting bad enough.

I'm convinced that those who want to see society go down the way we are headed, probably haven't seen such things before. I agree that how we have been living and abusing our welcome on the planet is wrong. I don't want that to continue. Nor do I welcome what I believe is in store for us. It's not going to be about riding your bike to the store and feeling smug. It's going to be about finding a store that is still open, that has something you need, being able to pay for it, and surviving the trip home, if you have a home.

I voted no, I don't want peak oil to happen, because as it is, we are headed directly to the Middle Ages.
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Re: Peak oil: Do you want it to occur?

Unread postby shootst81 » Thu 08 May 2008, 10:24:13

i don't want it to happen, but if it does it does.

Besides our ancestor's got along just fine with horse and buggy+steam engine train..we will adjust

horse and buggy could be temporary, till science catchs up
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Re: Peak oil: Do you want it to occur?

Unread postby skyemoor » Thu 08 May 2008, 12:35:32

It's not a matter of wanting it to occur, because it will. What I do want to occur is awareness and action within the populace to mitigate by shifting consumption patterns through changes in land use management, transportation choices, food choices, etc.
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Re: Peak oil: Do you want it to occur?

Unread postby dbruning » Thu 08 May 2008, 12:50:52

I'd be voting against it as well.

I feel we cannot continue as we have, and that a huge correction in lifestyle is coming. But to actively cheer for the death and hunger and suffering that is coming? I'll pass thanks.
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Re: Peak oil: Do you want it to occur?

Unread postby joeltrout » Thu 08 May 2008, 12:56:33

Part of me wants it to occur to prove everybody wrong that mocks peakoil. Then part of me does not want it to occur because I like the life I live and all the perks that we have now.

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Re: Peak oil: Do you want it to occur?

Unread postby TonyPrep » Thu 08 May 2008, 14:49:20

shootst81 wrote:i don't want it to happen, but if it does it does.

Besides our ancestor's got along just fine with horse and buggy+steam engine train..we will adjust

horse and buggy could be temporary, till science catchs up
The world was a very different place when your ancestors were getting along with horse and buggy. The adjustment will be catastrophic for many. Those that remain may be able to build something worthwhile. Science won't "catch up" for decades or centuries unless the world engineers a managed transition. There is no sign of that.
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Re: Peak oil: Do you want it to occur?

Unread postby usncom » Thu 08 May 2008, 19:21:33

Have any of you truly considered the ramifications of a society reverting back to the horse and buggy on our freedoms? Civil rights for minorities and women were largely made possible by and during the indusrial age.

Societal collapse from peak oil might do away with a lot of modern day conveniences but it WILL NOT change the human heart. We will go on wanting material things. We will continue to exploit others to get those material things.

The exploitation in the industrial age was somewhat mutually beneficial. The exploitation after industrial collapse will be a return to some archaic fuedal system or worse a return to barbaric forms of slavery.

No I don't want this to occour. HELL no.
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Re: Peak oil: Do you want it to occur?

Unread postby Ludi » Thu 08 May 2008, 19:25:50

Usncom, I'm sure you're aware that slavery is already widespread in the world. Are you saying you expect it to be widespread and accepted in the (present day ) First World?

What about yourself and the people you know makes you think you and they will find slavery acceptable?

I'm just curious about your views.
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Re: Peak oil: Do you want it to occur?

Unread postby usncom » Thu 08 May 2008, 19:53:54

I am talking primarily of the first world since it is the first world that is so heavily dependent on oil and it is the first world that has made the most strident and revolutionary gains towards securing and protecting fundamental civil rights.

What about yourself and the people you know makes you think you and they will find slavery acceptable?


History and basic fundamental human nature. Its a fact that the USA, relied heavily upon slave labor in the highly agricultural south while the north which was much more industrialised depended substantially less on slave labor. Not trying to give a history lesson here but this was one of the major factors which led to the civil war.

I don't think its a matter of "people I know" finding slavery acceptable or not. Its a matter of economic necessity and survival of TPTB.

Its funny how some people on this board seem to subtly infer that its a matter of necessity that 75% of the world's population die off so that we can live in some vague low energy utopia. I wonder how these same people will react when they find out the world waiting at the end of the bell curve is not some low energy disneyland but in fact a harsh, repressive, and Darwinian world.
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Re: Peak oil: Do you want it to occur?

Unread postby Ludi » Thu 08 May 2008, 19:58:11

Recall those societies used slave labor because they were used to using it. After Emancipation, there was no longer a "need" for slavery. Yet agriculture in the South continued, without slaves.

Slaves were owned by the very wealthy, and used to maintain the very wealthy in the style to which they were accustomed. Slaves were not used by the average farmer, even in the South.
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Re: Peak oil: Do you want it to occur?

Unread postby Ludi » Thu 08 May 2008, 20:24:55

Just to add, though I do not see slavery as an economic necessity, neither do I expect post-peak-oil to be easy. The world needn't be "harsh, repressive, and Darwinian." It's more likely to be so the more people see such a future as acceptable and inevitable.


Just sayin'. But I'm well-known here as a hopelessly naive dreamer and optimist. :)
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Re: Peak oil: Do you want it to occur?

Unread postby usncom » Thu 08 May 2008, 20:38:26

Recall those societies used slave labor because they were used to using it.


Indentured servitude was the norm in the colonies. Legal slavery didn't become recognized until the Virginia Slave codes of 1705 which was almost 100 years after the first settlers. This was not new and the founding fathers of the US constitution KNEW IT.

I was going to dig up quotes but I think we can agree that the founding fathers abhored and detested slavery as much as our modern day politicians abhore our addiction to imported oil. Suffice it to say, the US society back then was as addicted to slavery as we are to our new liquid slaves..OIL.

After Emancipation, there was no longer a "need" for slavery. Yet agriculture in the South continued, without slaves.


This is debatable. It can be argued that the sharecropping system cuopled with the prison industrial complex was slavery "lite". This from wikipedia:

"In Reconstruction-era United States, sharecropping worked in collaboration with convict lease to re-employ former slaves in jobs similar to those performed prior to their emancipation. To avoid the worst situation of becoming convict laborers, farmers were forced to enter into extremely disadvantageous sharecrop agreements that generally left them permanently in debt to the landowner."

Slaves were owned by the very wealthy, and used to maintain the very wealthy in the style to which they were accustomed.


True. However, you are leaving out just how dependent the whole economy of the southern USA was on slavery. It can't be underestimated that they were willing to form an independent government and fight the Federal government rather than give up on the "peculiar institution".

Are you seeing the parrallels here? I don't think its a far stretch of the imiagination that we will revert back to the past after this collapse some of you are cheering for. Just as there was horse and buggies in the past....its quite possible there will be slaves. It will not be a utopian low energy disneyland.
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Re: Peak oil: Do you want it to occur?

Unread postby s0cks » Thu 08 May 2008, 20:59:10

usncom wrote:Societal collapse from peak oil might do away with a lot of modern day conveniences but it WILL NOT change the human heart. We will go on wanting material things. We will continue to exploit others to get those material things.


The human heart does not want material things. We have been conditioned and brainwashed. A good documentary is "The Century of the Self". It wasn't that long ago when people only bought what they needed.
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Re: Peak oil: Do you want it to occur?

Unread postby usncom » Thu 08 May 2008, 21:07:17

s0cks wrote:
usncom wrote:Societal collapse from peak oil might do away with a lot of modern day conveniences but it WILL NOT change the human heart. We will go on wanting material things. We will continue to exploit others to get those material things.


The human heart does not want material things. We have been conditioned and brainwashed. A good documentary is "The Century of the Self". It wasn't that long ago when people only bought what they needed.


Maybe this is a matter of perception. A breif overview of the history of mankind tells me that war, greed, and lust is a permanent human condition.

This condition has been demonstrated from the very first "resource wars" fought with sticks and stones to secure the land with the most plentiful basic resources to the resource wars of today to keep the black gold flowing in to prop up the current infrastructure.
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