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Orimulsion: A potential energy source?

Discussions of conventional and alternative energy production technologies.

Re: Orimulsion: A potential energy source?

Unread postby Subjectivist » Sat 18 Feb 2017, 18:36:54

So why is it Orimulsion can't be sent through a refinery exactly?
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Re: Orimulsion: A potential energy source?

Unread postby ROCKMAN » Sat 18 Feb 2017, 20:27:32

Sub - No one said orimulsion can't be refined. In essence that's what upgraders do...call it refining light. Orimulsion is just a very poor quality feedstock with limited product capability. But efforts to improve the process have been ongoing for the obvious reason: the huge reserve base of billions of bbls. But that wasn't the initial question: why orimulsion and not dilbit: insufficient local/cheap source of light oil. From

http://www.digitalrefining.com/article/ ... KjmavJMFcs

"Article Summary - A number of leading oil companies, including Exxon, BP, Shell, Total and Petrobras, have given consideration to the manufacture of oil-in-water emulsion fuel from heavy refinery residues as a means of enhancing refining margins. The margin enhancement arises from recovery to the fuel pool of high-value cutter stock added to residue to meet heavy fuel oil viscosity specifications and to make a transportable fuel oil product.

In the summer of 2008, a commercial demonstration of Quadrise Fuels’ proprietary multiphase superfine atomised residue (MSAR) technology was successfully completed at Mazeikiu Nafta’s 200 000 bpd refinery 
in Lithuania. More than 140 000 barrels (22 000 mt) of MSAR fuel was manufactured in a joint initiative between the refinery, Quadrise Fuels International (QFI) and its technology licensor AkzoNobel. The fuel was subsequently transported over 300 km by rail and combusted at the 1800 MWe Elektrenai power plant owned by Lietuvos Elektrinė.

The commercial demonstration established the technical and commercial viability of MSAR technology in an operating refinery environment, and opens opportunities for refiners to add significant value to residue streams without incurring the high capital costs and extended schedules associated with conventional hydrogen addition or carbon rejection upgrading technologies.

Emulsion developments - Commencing in 1990, British Petroleum (BP) and Petróleos de Venezuela (PDVSA) successfully established a 6.5 Mtpa market for their proprietary emulsion fuel known as Orimulsion — a 70% bitumen in 30% water emulsion. The product, manufactured from 
8° API Orinoco bitumen, was exported worldwide as a boiler fuel for power generation.

By 2003, supply contracts with major generating companies (gencos) had been secured for power plants in North and Central America, Europe and Asia. A US Environmental Protection Agency (EPA) report established that under adequate safeguards Orimulsion could comply with all environmental legislation, and the technical success of Orimulsion for a 160 MWe Wärtsilä diesel generator plant in Guatemala opened new horizons for the 
application of the fuel. By 2006, more than 60 million tonnes of Orimulsion had been shipped to end users worldwide. However, production of the product ceased in December 2006."
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Re: Orimulsion: A potential energy source?

Unread postby sparky » Sun 19 Feb 2017, 13:32:03

.
In the refineries , the spills , run off and other crap end up in the retention pits
that's big swimming pools of very dirty water with some thick dark stuff floating on top .

Refineries waste nothing ,
the top rubbish is creamed off and used again ,
It's called slop ..... Orimulsion is its ugly brother
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Re: Orimulsion: A potential energy source?

Unread postby ROCKMAN » Sun 19 Feb 2017, 19:03:37

sparky - Seems like have a theme with a split personality. LOL. See last Rockman post:

the-michael-c-lynch-thread-merged-t129-340.html
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Re: Orimulsion: A potential energy source?

Unread postby sparky » Mon 20 Feb 2017, 07:14:21

.
Funny I didn't follows the Lynch thread , But I guess it's some kind of synchronicity ,
the part about the rum was very interesting
back to Venezuela , so far , My understanding is that they sinmply mix their crap with lighter stuff to create blend
is it possible , if uneconomical to hydrogenize the heavies to change their carbon chains ?
it's more of a refinery man subject , I would be keen to know if there has been any production
after all if one is talking of coal to liquid , this would be already half the way there
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Re: Orimulsion: A potential energy source?

Unread postby Tanada » Mon 20 Feb 2017, 08:05:37

sparky wrote:.
Funny I didn't follows the Lynch thread , But I guess it's some kind of synchronicity ,
the part about the rum was very interesting
back to Venezuela , so far , My understanding is that they sinmply mix their crap with lighter stuff to create blend
is it possible , if uneconomical to hydrogenize the heavies to change their carbon chains ?
it's more of a refinery man subject , I would be keen to know if there has been any production
after all if one is talking of coal to liquid , this would be already half the way there


Well you can call the extra heavy oil 'crap' if you want too but I think it has a much higher energy value than buffalo chips so that isn't a very apt comparison.

Here is the thing, from a historical perspective .

The Oil industry developed in two places for the most part, eastern North America not too far from the Atlantic coast and Eastern Europe in a zone going from the Baltic coast diagonally to the Caspian Sea coast.

When the oil industry began there was a lot of mid grade crude oil 'intermediate' as the industry calls it and starting from very simple pot stills this gave a lot of Kerosene aka Diesel #1 aka Coal Oil aka Lamp Oil.

For those who don't realize it a 'pot still' is exactly what it sounds like, a moonshiner would be proud to have one. You pour in a charge of crude oil and start a fire under the pot. The first gasses that come out of the condenser coil are the actual gasses, methane, ethane and propane. Some folks would flare them off others would just let them escape.

The next set of chemicals that come out of the condenser coil are the natural gasoline. and naphtha set. Many distilleries had no use for this 'explosive' liquid so they dumped it in local water ways to be rid of it cheaply. Once the very light gasoline had boiled off you got the pay zone, the upper end of gasoline right up through Kerosene was saleable for use in lamps and paid back a good profit. Then came the heavier end of Diesel #2 fuel which made a smoky fire in a kerosene lamp but it worked fine as a fire starter and for bunker fuel. In fact about this time your pot still charge is about half used up and most distillers would put the fire out and drain the 'still bottoms' out and sell it as bunker fuel.

All that history is nifty, but basically what has happened from 1914-2014 was more and more techniques were developed to optimize that 'Intermediate' type of oil refining. The first big advance was to spray the very hot first run 'still bottoms' onto a catalyst surface that would 'catalytically crack' the large molecular size portion into smaller pieces.

Early after they started cracking they figured out that adding hydrogen gas at the same time as the cracking allowed the fragments of long chains to take up hydrogen on their cleavage ends and stabilize those shorter molecules.

Then a couple decades later they came up with 'reformulation' where you take the really short low value tops from the distillation tower, spray them over other catalysts that cause then to lose some of their hydrogen and stick together in longer molecules. Thus 'reformulated gasoline' was born. The expert refiners can now take Intermediate weight oil that started out producing about 10 percent natural gasoline, break the long molecules down to gasoline length and reformulate the shorter molecules up to gasoline weight an Viola' we go from 10 percent natural gasoline to 48% reformulated gasoline from the same volume of crude oil.

The point of this little story is, our petroleum industry has focused almost exclusively on refining Intermediate crude, to the point that other weights of oil like Dilbit are 'adjusted' into synthetic intermediate crude so they can be used in the same refineries that the industry already has a large number of. If we run low on the blending components they use to make heavy and extra heavy oil into synthetic Intermediate then they will have to design new refineries optimized for processing heavy and extra heavy crudes instead of being optimized for intermediate and synthetic intermediate. Venezuela has estimates of up to a TRILLION barrels of heavy, extra heavy, and bitumin deposits of petroleum. The current government is awful and is not doing the things that need to be done to refine those grades of oil, but that doesn't make all those resources useless forever. It just makes them less useful until the lousy VZ government gets out of the way.
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Re: Orimulsion: A potential energy source?

Unread postby ROCKMAN » Mon 20 Feb 2017, 11:06:56

sparky - "My understanding is that they simply mix their crap with lighter stuff to create blend". Just so you're clear. Dilbit = Alberta oil sands crap + light oil. Orimulsion = Venezuelan Orinoco Belt crap + water. Obviously water is free and light oil isn't. Making dilbit adds value (higher Btu) to the blend. Adding water reduces value (lower Btu) to the blend.

In the long term the huge size of the Venezuelan reserves IMHO will inevitably push efforts to increase its utility to provide more useful products.
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Re: Orimulsion: A potential energy source?

Unread postby sparky » Mon 20 Feb 2017, 16:27:25

.
As a though experiment could one consider the depletion of "classic" light crude
with increasing use of both the light and heavy ends of the hydrocarbon family
IE , from distillates to methane at one end and heavies to extra heavies and tar at the other end
refineries would still produce products in sufficient quantities
would this still be considered "peak" ?
I call the Venezuelan tar "crap" because it's a bit of a nightmare to extract , transport and process
up to now there was extreme reluctance to use it as feedstock ,
obviously the main point is getting the stuff to flow to the tanker loaders, refineries tank farms and processing vessels .
Once there it can be scrubbed ,cracked ,hydrogenated and whatever those bright boys in the process industry can think off
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Re: Orimulsion: A potential energy source?

Unread postby Tanada » Mon 20 Feb 2017, 20:29:27

Obvious solution, make it into orimulsion and it easily flows through pipelines and sails away in conventional tanker ships.
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Re: Orimulsion: A potential energy source?

Unread postby ROCKMAN » Mon 20 Feb 2017, 21:50:19

T - "...and sails away in conventional tanker ships." Which is exactly why Orimuilsion was developed 37 years ago. Notice below how our environmentally conscious Yankees were quick to sign on to burning "liquid coal". The history - from 1980:

"With oil prices surging, some electric power company managers are seeing some relief through the huge bitumen reserves here in eastern Venezuela. Using the label ''liquid coal,'' Venezuela started marketing a bitumen and water emulsion this year that is liquid and easy to handle like oil but priced like coal - a cheap and stable commodity. Patented under the name Orimulsion, the fuel comes from Venezuela's vast Orinoco Heavy Oil Belt and can be burned in power plants as an alternative to coal or to the international standby, Heavy Fuel Oil No. 6, after a plant has been modified. The most expensive part of the modification is adding scrubbers to smokestacks to remove Orimulsion's relatively high concentration of sulphur, which causes acid rain, from emissions.

Successful Tests - After two years of successful tests in power plants in Canada, Britain and Japan, the world power generating industry appears to be optimistic about the product. One reason is the price. Depending on contracts, Orimulsion is sold at $1.10 to $1.30 a barrel. In contrast, heavy fuel oil is now selling for about $19 a barrel, sharply up from $10 a barrel at the end of July. 'We have 11 plants that can be converted to Orimulsion,'' said Ray Golden, a spokesman for the Florida Power and Light Company, in an interview. ''It could mean $3 to $5 billion in fuel savings over 15 years.'' He added: ''Orimulsion is a win-win situation. It's stored, transported and burned like oil, but priced like coal.''

Environmental Waiver Needed - His company expects to be the first American utility to conduct trial tests, probably in December, and feasibility studies are under way at power companies in Maine, Massachusetts, Puerto Rico and Virginia. But test burns in the Florida company's 400-megawatt unit in Sanford, Fla., will depend on the Environmental Protection Agency's granting a temporary waiver of air emission limits to allow the burning of 2.5 million barrels of the new fuel.
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Re: Orimulsion: A potential energy source?

Unread postby ROCKMAN » Mon 20 Feb 2017, 22:15:03

sparky - "...increasing use of both the light and heavy ends of the hydrocarbon family IE , from distillates to methane at one end and heavies to extra heavies and tar at the other end". No "thought experiment" needed: that's what refineries have been doing for decades: refining "blended oil" which the crack more efficiently. In reality much of the oil acquired by refineries aren't bought from oil producers. It is bought from oil blending companies that by the different oils from the producers.

As mentioned mucho times refineries tend to optimally refine blended oils with a narrow gravity range... 31° to. 33° API. For instance when the Canadian dilbit (usually around 23° API) reaches Cushing, OK., it is often bought by blending companies (the names of which I doubt anyone here are familiar with) who then blend it with more condensate which is more marketable to the refineries.
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Re: Orimulsion: A potential energy source?

Unread postby vtsnowedin » Mon 20 Feb 2017, 22:53:11

A side note on the CWF story. I remember reading back in the 70's about a coal company fighting with the railroads. Every time they managed to reduce the price per ton at the mine top the railroads raised the freight rates eating up the profits. The solution was to grind the coal fine enough to mix with water and be pumped through a pipeline taking the business away from the railroad. Not that they wanted to build a lot of pipe lines to carry CWF but just having proved the concept kept the railroads in line.
Probably someone figured out how to burn the CWF without drying out the water on the receiving end.
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Re: Orimulsion: A potential energy source?

Unread postby ROCKMAN » Mon 20 Feb 2017, 23:09:07

vt - You've awaked some deeply buried memory. Seems like it might have been scuttle butt inspired by the "Arab Embargo" in the 70's.
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Re: Orimulsion: A potential energy source?

Unread postby vtsnowedin » Tue 21 Feb 2017, 07:58:20

ROCKMAN wrote:vt - You've awaked some deeply buried memory. Seems like it might have been scuttle butt inspired by the "Arab Embargo" in the 70's.

Probably. I don't remember where I read it but in those years I did subscribe to "News week" so it may well have been printed there.
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Re: Orimulsion: A potential energy source?

Unread postby sparky » Tue 21 Feb 2017, 08:01:34

.
History doesn't repeat itself ...but it stutter a lot
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Re: Orimulsion: A potential energy source?

Unread postby ROCKMAN » Tue 21 Feb 2017, 23:35:42

Now that I think of it: why are we talking about Orimulsion since it appears Venezuela stopped selling it 10 years ago? Interesting story about that...from 2007:

New Brunswick Premier Shawn Graham says a failed multimillion-dollar fuel deal between NB Power and the Venezuelan government is a closed chapter in the province's history. The deal was dubbed the "Orimulsion fiasco" by the Liberals during the 2006 election campaign, with Liberal Leader Graham promising an inquiry into what went wrong. Last week, the utility announced it had reached an out-of-court settlement, with Venezuela agreeing to pay NB Power $338 million.

NB Power said it had signed a supply contract with a Venezuelan government-owned fuel company in 2004 to buy inexpensive Orimulsion fuel. Venezuela then stopped selling the fuel, causing the deal to fall through, but not before $700 million was spent to refurbish the Coleson Cove generating stationto burn the bitumen-based fuel.
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Re: Orimulsion: A potential energy source?

Unread postby vtsnowedin » Wed 22 Feb 2017, 00:05:23

ROCKMAN wrote:Now that I think of it: why are we talking about Orimulsion since it appears Venezuela stopped selling it 10 years ago? Interesting story about that...from 2007:

New Brunswick Premier Shawn Graham says a failed multimillion-dollar fuel deal between NB Power and the Venezuelan government is a closed chapter in the province's history. The deal was dubbed the "Orimulsion fiasco" by the Liberals during the 2006 election campaign, with Liberal Leader Graham promising an inquiry into what went wrong. Last week, the utility announced it had reached an out-of-court settlement, with Venezuela agreeing to pay NB Power $338 million.

NB Power said it had signed a supply contract with a Venezuelan government-owned fuel company in 2004 to buy inexpensive Orimulsion fuel. Venezuela then stopped selling the fuel, causing the deal to fall through, but not before $700 million was spent to refurbish the Coleson Cove generating stationto burn the bitumen-based fuel.

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Re: The ETP model was wrong - But is there a top for oil pri

Unread postby Yoshua » Wed 06 Jun 2018, 13:22:45

If the refineries remove 20% of the energy content in a barrel of crude for other useful purposes than liquid fuels...they still remove them and the net energy falls by 20% per barrel.

Crude oil engines can burn long, heavy hydrocarbon chains as well as long as they are mixed in the crude in smaller percentages.

Could the world economy survive without plastics and asphalt? Probably not.
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Re: The ETP model was wrong - But is there a top for oil pri

Unread postby Yoshua » Wed 06 Jun 2018, 15:39:01

Man and Wärtsilä are producing crude oil engines with over 50% fuel efficiency. Most diesel engines can run on crude.

All crudes are not the same. It is actually possible to blend crudes to get the right mix.

Would this lead to a perfect world? No. Could we do with less asphalt, plastics and other products? Probably yes.

I don't see this being done today. On contrary, our governments are demanding cleaner fuels. We will most likely continue on this highway until we hit a wall and have us another nice financial meltdown and who knows perhaps a nice little war as well and a little bit of chaos and anarchy with some starvation on top.

If the crude oil engine is a solution then the net energy from petroleum production would rise to 80-85% per barrel.
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Re: The ETP model was wrong - But is there a top for oil pri

Unread postby kublikhan » Wed 06 Jun 2018, 16:26:31

Yoshua, I read the Wärtsilä pdf with the 50% quote. It did not say crude oil delivers over 50% fuel efficiency. Running Wärtsilä engines with crude oil was found to reduce performance, reduce engine life, and increase pollution. The oil was so acidic it was eating away at the engine and fuel lines. Carbon deposits were fouling up the engine. And they recommended doing a complete analysis on any crude oil you fuel it with in order to tune the engine to the characteristics of that particular crude oil. And treating the fuel to lower it's acidity. Not to mention how much more dirty the exhaust is and that it causes acid rain. I talked about problems like this in my previous post. The proposal you are making will not create the results you are hoping to see.

Objectives of the Present Study
The objective of the study is to identify the impact of the Crude Oil (CRO) and Light Fuel Oil (LFO) on Wartsila Engine and the engine performance. It also aims to know the economic significance to the Plant Operation and effect on the Surrounding environment.

There is a big increase on spare parts usage since the start of the CRO[Crude Oil] operation. This means that the quality of fuel has a big contribution on the wear and tear of the engine parts and directly affecting the engine performance. It has also a big impact economically in terms of spare parts cost. During the engine overhauling, a significant amount of carbon deposit was found on the engine combustion chamber as shown on the picture above fig. (4.4) and fig. (4.5). Too much carbon accumulation on the camber will increase the risk of cylinder bore polishing and will eventually leads to lose compression, high lube oil consumption and decrease on engine performance.

Since the start of CRO operation, several instances of engine hard starting had been experienced. The problem has been addressed by replacing the injection pumps. During the inspection, pitting/erosion marks on the plunger and barrel and broken delivery valve springs were found as shown on Fig.(4.6) and Fig. (4.7). The pitting and erosion marks are normally noticeable during major overhaul in which plunger and barrels are due for replacement. However, this problem on the injection pumps happened even far below the recommended overhauling interval. The early deterioration of the injection pumps can be attributed due to a high TAN[Total Acid Number] of the crude oil.

Fuel leakage on the fuel lines is a common issue since the start of crude oil operation. Most of these leaks caused an engine forced stoppage. During the inspection as shown in Fig. (4.8), Fig. (4.9) and Fig. (4.10) erosion on the sealing surface caused the fuel high pressure pipes and injector connecting piece fuel leakages. The erosion seems to be an acid attack and can also be attributed to due to the high TAN of the crude oil.

Too much carbon deposit was also noted on the fuel injector nozzle Fig. (4.11) that can be due to low quality of fuel. Poor fuel injection will cause higher fuel consumption, low engine performance, carbon build-up on the combustion chamber and soon will have a consequential damage on the engine components and may even bring an engine breakdown if taken for granted for a longer time.

A complete CRO analysis is needed to have an accurate interpretation of the fuel properties and its impact on the engine components and how to do any possible adjustments to fine tune the engine operation. An additional fuel treatment process may be required to lower the TAN (i.e. Total Acid Number) of the crude oil.

Toxicity
Crude oil is a mixture of many different kinds of organic compounds, many of which are highly toxic and cancer causing.

Exhaust
When oil or petroleum distillates are burned usually the combustion is not complete. This means that incompletely burned compounds are created in addition to just water and carbon dioxide .The other compounds are often toxic to life. Examples are carbon monoxide and methanol. Also, fine particulates of soot blacken humans' lungs and cause heart problems or death. Soot is cancer. Therefore, safety precaution must be taken when dealing with petroleum exhaust.

Acid Rain
High temperatures created by the combustion of petroleum cause nitrogen gas in the surroundings air to oxidize, creating nitrous oxides. Nitrous oxides, along with sulfur dioxide from the sulfur in the oil, combine with water in the atmosphere to create acid rain. Acid rain causes many problems such as dead trees and acidified lakes with dead fish. Trees killed by acid rain, an unwanted side effect of burning petroleum. Acid rain leads to increased corrosion of machinery.
The oil barrel is half-full.
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