Donate Bitcoin

Donate Paypal


PeakOil is You

PeakOil is You

Open vs Closed Borders

For discussions of events and conditions not necessarily related to Peak Oil.

Open or closed borders? (by all transport methods... they all are in discussion right now)

Let the waves of humanity and organisms flow at will.
6
30%
Somewhere in between.
12
60%
Hide in bugout and shoot all that approach.
2
10%
 
Total votes : 20

Open vs Closed Borders

Unread postby MD » Sun 19 Oct 2014, 19:13:23

Open borders win the day.

"What doesn't kill you makes you stronger." -A friend reminded me of that fact the other day.
Stop filling dumpsters, as much as you possibly can, and everything will get better.

Just think it through.
It's not hard to do.
User avatar
MD
COB
COB
 
Posts: 4953
Joined: Mon 02 May 2005, 03:00:00
Location: On the ball

Re: Open vs Closed Borders

Unread postby Newfie » Sun 19 Oct 2014, 19:17:22

I voted somewhere in the middle. Your question isn't quite clear, are you talking visitors or immigrants?

I'm much more open on visitors than on immigration. Enough is enough, the USA is full. Ditto Canada. (Dual citizen - guess I count twice?)
User avatar
Newfie
Forum Moderator
Forum Moderator
 
Posts: 18458
Joined: Thu 15 Nov 2007, 04:00:00
Location: Between Canada and Carribean

Re: Open vs Closed Borders

Unread postby MD » Sun 19 Oct 2014, 19:29:45

Newfie wrote:I voted somewhere in the middle. Your question isn't quite clear, are you talking visitors or immigrants?


Both.
Stop filling dumpsters, as much as you possibly can, and everything will get better.

Just think it through.
It's not hard to do.
User avatar
MD
COB
COB
 
Posts: 4953
Joined: Mon 02 May 2005, 03:00:00
Location: On the ball

Re: Open vs Closed Borders

Unread postby Sixstrings » Sun 19 Oct 2014, 19:40:38

Here's the thing about this -- railing and ranting about immigrants is classic right wing nationalist stuff, and it's the same in every country.

So I resist falling into that. I don't want to be an idiot fascist.

We've pretty much had open immigration with Mexico all our lives, and then nafta. The boat sailed a long time ago anyway.

OTOH -- there really are drug cartel incursions into American border towns.

We really do not want cartels over here beheading Americans and assasinating prosecutors and judges and all that kind of crap that goes on in places like Mexico and Columbia.

So we just have to watch it. If it's getting bad like that, then we do need the army on the border and to finally seal that border. If there's good cause for it, like these cartels, then I think it's a rational decision and not being a racist right winger nationalist.

Other than that, I think immigration is a net plus, but we shouldn't be afraid to do what we used to a century ago and decide WHICH immigrants we'd like to have more of. I'll have to be honest with you, I'm not fond of Hatians for example. A lot of Hatians around here are up to no good and they're scammers.

Whereas Russians and Ukrainians and Poles and east euros make good immigrants, sure let all those in that want to come in.

For Latin and South America and everywhere else -- we should just put in a good solid funds requirement (and Haiti, for that matter). If somebody can come over with at least twenty thousand or so in their pocket, then why not let them in? That really cuts out all the troublemakers and welfare types, just require they have significant startup funds then those are good people to have in and I don't mind letting as many in as want to come in.

Really the only reason to NOT have immigrants is if we don't have a labor shortage and they'd wind up on assistance.

Culturally though -- and no I don't want to be a racist fascist right winger -- but we are turning into a Spanish nation. And I don't speak Spanish. So what happens to all the Americans in the future who won't speak Spanish either, yet to get a job you have to speak Spanish.

And again, we don't want all the crazyness that goes on in Mexico and much of latin America.

Best solution really is to SEAL THE BORDER TIGHT at this point, and have open immigration to anyone that can show up with about twenty grand cash and that's fair and would keep all the riffraff out.

I admit, I bounce back and forth on this issue and see both sides to it. That we're an immigrant nation and that's our strength and statue of liberty and all that, yet I don't want my town to turn into Tijuana either ya know? :|
User avatar
Sixstrings
Fusion
Fusion
 
Posts: 15160
Joined: Tue 08 Jul 2008, 03:00:00

Re: Open vs Closed Borders

Unread postby Shaved Monkey » Sun 19 Oct 2014, 21:07:04

Borders open when it suits and closed when it doesn't,with humanitarian concerns catered for.
Post WW11 required lots of unskilled factory workers,now its not the case.
Obviously business always wants growth as it provides downward wage pressure, more customers and profits ,obviously unskilled, un/under employed workers dont want the competition and the middle class dont want the drain on infrastructure,services and their standard of living.
Im a product of immigration and very glad my Grandfather and Uncle made the move,it was the equivalent of winning the lottery for multiple generations that followed.
Ready to turn Zombies into WWOOFers
User avatar
Shaved Monkey
Intermediate Crude
Intermediate Crude
 
Posts: 2486
Joined: Wed 30 Mar 2011, 01:43:28

Re: Open vs Closed Borders

Unread postby Paulo1 » Sun 19 Oct 2014, 23:30:26

For Canada:

fair immigration policy...first come first served with behaviour criteria for general immigrants (no criminal record and no druggies + must be sponsored by family or group) with a special category and quota for humanitarian needs and refugees. Bank account balance does not allow line budging. Character vrs connections.

Applications only valid if made before entrance to country is gained, with exceptions for real refugees....no loopholes or dodges. Sneaks lose chance to ever immigrate.

Drug or criminal offense means instant deportation.
ISIS fighters and such lose citizenship and right to return to Canada regardless of country of origin...including those born in Canada.

Living in this country is a priviledge and not a right. I also believe in compulsory voting. You can protest by spoiling your ballet, but those who do not vote should be heavily fined.

Paulo
Paulo1
Coal
Coal
 
Posts: 425
Joined: Sun 07 Apr 2013, 15:50:35
Location: East Coast Vancouver Island

Re: Open vs Closed Borders

Unread postby KaiserJeep » Mon 20 Oct 2014, 02:40:55

For what it is worth, I do NOT favor letting only people with money cross the borders. That would insure that we only got gang bangers.

I propose that a provisional citizen earn citizenship via 10 years of labor and taxes. Any money they already possess is kept in an interest-bearing account until citizenship is earned. Certain job functions offer accelerated citizenship:

Military service
Medical services
Emergency services
Etc. (please yourself here, as long as a majority agrees)

NO SPECIAL STATUS or exceptions for political refugees, religious refugees, or any other group claiming persecution of any type or source, everybody works productively and pays taxes, or serves the public in a special job classification. No exceptions.
KaiserJeep 2.0, Neural Subnode 0010 0000 0001 0110 - 1001 0011 0011, Tertiary Adjunct to Unimatrix 0000 0000 0001

Resistance is Futile, YOU will be Assimilated.

Warning: Messages timestamped before April 1, 2016, 06:00 PST were posted by the unmodified human KaiserJeep 1.0
KaiserJeep
Light Sweet Crude
Light Sweet Crude
 
Posts: 6094
Joined: Tue 06 Aug 2013, 17:16:32
Location: Wisconsin's Dreamland

Re: Open vs Closed Borders

Unread postby SILENTTODD » Mon 20 Oct 2014, 02:53:53

I would assume this discussion is about the United States, although I have read similar things on different blogs from posters about the UK and Australia.

Living for all but 5 of my 59 years in California I have seen the effects of massive immigration for at least the last 50 years. As a child I have vivid memories of a California that was quite different than what I see today. On a personal level I have been involved in the past with two foreign born women, one I still see and talk to.

My main concern with immigration is what population density are you willing to accept before you discover you are now in a population "hell hole". In my life time the population of California has grown from 19.1 million in 1968, to 38.3 million today. Every study I have read states this doubling of the population is totally due to foreign immigration and their immediate progeny. The birth rate of the native born population is similar to Europe, and would have kept total population at that <20 million level.

I heard old timers who came to Southern California in the 1920's,30's, and even 1940's describe it as a veritable Garden of Eden (if you've never been in the middle of an Orange grove during the bloom season you don't know what I'm talking about). Only in a very few places in So Cal can you experience this any more. Houses and freeways for the added population cover everything else.

The population of the United States just reached 200 million when I was in junior high in the late 1960's, when Lyndon Johnson was President. The current population only 45 years later is almost 318 million, all due to immigration (native born population has same birth rate as Europe-at or below replacement only).

You have to ask yourself what population density do want? That of Mexico City? Beijing? or Bangladesh? Those of you who are in favor of open boarders favor the Bangladesh option:
Image
Skeptical scrutiny in both Science and Religion is the means by which deep thoughts are winnowed from deep nonsense-Carl Sagan
User avatar
SILENTTODD
Tar Sands
Tar Sands
 
Posts: 928
Joined: Sat 06 May 2006, 03:00:00
Location: Corona, CA

Re: Open vs Closed Borders

Unread postby Newfie » Mon 20 Oct 2014, 09:27:11

You have to ask yourself what population density do want?


Exactly. I think we are too crowded already, USA and Canada.
User avatar
Newfie
Forum Moderator
Forum Moderator
 
Posts: 18458
Joined: Thu 15 Nov 2007, 04:00:00
Location: Between Canada and Carribean

Re: Open vs Closed Borders

Unread postby Paulo1 » Mon 20 Oct 2014, 10:07:29

SilentTodd,

Your post struck a chord with me for several reasons. I am 59. My parents moved to California in 1954, and it truly was a Garden of Eden. I was born there. Within me there is an undying link to the brown rolling hills with patchy oak stands, small sandstone escarpments full of blue belly lizards, and a glorious climate for our orchards and fruit trees. We used to dry apricots on our roof.

We left in 68, the year you arrived. My mom was Canadian and wanted to go home. My parents planned it for a few years, first buying some land on Vancouver Island after a long time searching, vacationing where we spent days clearing etc, and finally the folks pulled the pin after riots in Hunters Point, Black Panthers stating they would come out and burn 'whitey's houses and not their own, and the debacle of the 'War' with family friends killed or wounded. We (kids)were instructed to say we were moving to WA, as the IRS was hounding people who moved away to other countries.

My parents were both ww2 vets (in action overseas) and certainly not cowards. My Dad stated the country was on its way to becoming a police state.

There was one hispanic family in our area, even though the area was quite modest and full of ranches, walnut orchards, and regular type sub-divisions. I gather it has changed a bit since then. :)

Needless to say, I would be inclined to leave and move where there is a little more rain and fewer people.

Paulo
Paulo1
Coal
Coal
 
Posts: 425
Joined: Sun 07 Apr 2013, 15:50:35
Location: East Coast Vancouver Island

Re: Open vs Closed Borders

Unread postby Paulo1 » Mon 20 Oct 2014, 10:20:35

Newfie,

Depends on where you live and how you live, doesn't it? Certainly the 100 mille corridor along the US border is crowded, but Yukon has 25,000 people, or so. I can remember flying for 3 hours and realizing I knew almost everyone underneath me...all 100 or so. Even Vancouver Island is only crowded in the bottom 1/3. The interior of BC is only bad around kelowna and like 'attractions'.

Wiki stats (which I often forget)
At 9.98 million square kilometres in total, Canada is the world's second-largest country by total area and the fourth-largest country by land area.

Canada is a developed country and one of the wealthiest in the world, with the eighth highest per capita income globally, and the eighth highest ranking in the Human Development Index. It ranks among the highest in international measurements of government transparency, civil liberties, quality of life, economic freedom, and education, and stands among the world's most educated countries- ranking first worldwide in the number of adults having tertiary education with 51% of adults having attained at least an undergraduate college or university degree (according to the OECD 2012 survey).[10]

Population at 35 million is less than California's.

I like it.

Paulo
Paulo1
Coal
Coal
 
Posts: 425
Joined: Sun 07 Apr 2013, 15:50:35
Location: East Coast Vancouver Island

Re: Open vs Closed Borders

Unread postby Henriksson » Mon 20 Oct 2014, 13:21:10

I'm extremely supportive of welcoming refugees. I'm more skeptical of catering to the upper class' need for cheap cleaners.
Henriksson
Peat
Peat
 
Posts: 80
Joined: Wed 30 Jul 2014, 08:23:55

Re: Open vs Closed Borders

Unread postby Newfie » Mon 20 Oct 2014, 18:16:59

Paulo,

Agreed, where you live and how you live.

So for me, I think the planet should be fairly limited in human population. It should be left mainly in its natural state, with certain areas set aside for dense human habitation. Maybe some islands...England, Australia, Japan, Madagascar. Just beer talk for thee moment. I would like to see enough humans that we can support advanced technology and continue to learn and expand our capabilities. I would also like to see the wild spaces largely preserved.

I'm guessing maybe one billion is about the total population limit before we really start to muck things up.

I'm more of an east coast guy, Newife and all that. But yeah, they feel like good densities.

PA, where I currently live, has about 12.8 million. Newfoundland, just the island, not Labrador, ihas almost exactly the same land area and about 500,000 people. Nearly half of them in the St. John's metro area.
User avatar
Newfie
Forum Moderator
Forum Moderator
 
Posts: 18458
Joined: Thu 15 Nov 2007, 04:00:00
Location: Between Canada and Carribean

Re: Open vs Closed Borders

Unread postby Paulo1 » Mon 20 Oct 2014, 23:10:42

The Newfies I have met over the years know how to live well with little, and highly value family and friends. In my opinion they have it right.
Paulo1
Coal
Coal
 
Posts: 425
Joined: Sun 07 Apr 2013, 15:50:35
Location: East Coast Vancouver Island

Re: Open vs Closed Borders

Unread postby Loki » Tue 21 Oct 2014, 00:07:28

Can you imagine what the housing market in the US would look like without 2+ million new arrivals every year? As one of our resident corncucopians (Oily) regularly points out, our anemic growth in GDP is largely due to immigration. Population Ponzi scheme is what I call it.

What I find most ironic are folks on sites like this, devoted to the idea of resource limits, advocating for unlimited immigration. Many of these folks are often the first to bitch about Americans using 25% of the world's resources (or similar claim) while only constituting 5% of the world's population. The answer to this problem must be more Americans! :roll:

Immigrants don't come here to consume fewer resources, they come here to consume more. If you think we need more people consuming more resources, by all means, open up the borders even more than they already are. The US Chamber of Commerce thanks you for your service.
A garden will make your rations go further.
User avatar
Loki
Expert
Expert
 
Posts: 3509
Joined: Sat 08 Apr 2006, 03:00:00
Location: Oregon

Re: Open vs Closed Borders

Unread postby ralfy » Tue 21 Oct 2014, 00:46:57

The issue isn't just population density but consumption rate vs. biocapacity. Thus, a region that is sparsely populated may also be overpopulated. Desired or needed goods may be imported from other regions.

Also, if capitalist systems require expanding markets, then both increasing population and consumption rate are needed to sustain economic growth, which includes profit, increased income, and returns on investment.

Third, in the same systems producers will likely not keep goods for local use. Rather, they will sell to outsiders.

Fourth, sparsely population regions that want to maintain middle class conveniences at the lowest price possible will require extensive JIT systems to keep goods rolling. Thus, only a few weeks' worth of food, medicine, fuel, and even ammo will be available, with lots of fuel needed for transport and delivery.
User avatar
ralfy
Light Sweet Crude
Light Sweet Crude
 
Posts: 5571
Joined: Sat 28 Mar 2009, 11:36:38
Location: The Wasteland

Re: Open vs Closed Borders

Unread postby Newfie » Tue 21 Oct 2014, 08:21:15

We are drifting off topic here.

But, I did suggest a few more moderately populated areas, and leave the rest pretty much alone as the sustainable solution. Mot that we will ever get there.
User avatar
Newfie
Forum Moderator
Forum Moderator
 
Posts: 18458
Joined: Thu 15 Nov 2007, 04:00:00
Location: Between Canada and Carribean

Re: Open vs Closed Borders

Unread postby Timo » Tue 21 Oct 2014, 11:44:16

I have no problem with a rational immigration policy, with "rational" being the key word. Any autonomous economic system depends of a healthy balance of supply and demand, and the demand is provided by workers who create that supply. It is very easy for unmitigated immigration to throw that balance out of whack. Unfortunately, nearly all of the recent discussion about immigration policy here in the US has not been very rational. A good portion of our US economy actually depends on immigrant labour. If that demand for labour can be filled with temporary work visas, i'm all for that. The problem then becomes controlling the temporary status of those work visas. Nothing is perfect, but that's no reason to give up and stop thinking rationally about how to implement a functional immigration policy.
Timo
 

Re: Open vs Closed Borders

Unread postby JuanP » Wed 22 Oct 2014, 15:07:52

I guess I am the only antisocial misanthrope here so far. I went for the shoot them all option.
I am an international migrant, born in Uruguay and living in the USA. My perspective on this has changed through time. I used to be pro free movement of people everywhere on the planet, but now I am against it.
In a collapsing world many places will be destroyed by foreign populations moving in. It is necessary for all governments to try and protect their territory. This problem will get continuously worse for a long time.
I have done a 180 turn on this subject. And it is not that I am protecting what's mine because I am already here in the US. I am most likely returning home in the short term future. But Mexico is a failing state, and the USA needs to protect itself. Just one example.
The future will force some to make hard choices at times to survive.
"Human stupidity has no limits" JuanP
JuanP
Heavy Crude
Heavy Crude
 
Posts: 1957
Joined: Sat 16 Aug 2014, 15:06:32

Re: Open vs Closed Borders

Unread postby Newfie » Wed 22 Oct 2014, 16:04:26

No, you are not the only one.
User avatar
Newfie
Forum Moderator
Forum Moderator
 
Posts: 18458
Joined: Thu 15 Nov 2007, 04:00:00
Location: Between Canada and Carribean

Next

Return to Geopolitics & Global Economics

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 8 guests