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Obama to build coalition of the willing, war in Iraq

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Re: Obama to build coalition of the willing, war in Iraq

Unread postby Plantagenet » Wed 24 Sep 2014, 15:48:35

wrote:Peter Van Buren: As someone who cares deeply about this country, I find it beyond belief that Washington has again plunged into the swamp of the Sunni-Shia mess in Iraq.


Open up your eyes and accept the new reality---Obama has taken the US into a new war in both Iraq ----and also in Syria. And the reason for this new war? Obama says he is waging a "war on war."

Gosh....that sounds great. A "war on war" :roll:

But somehow in both Iraq and Syria US warplanes aren't really bombing "war"---US planes are attacking Sunni rebels who are fighting corrupt Shia governments in Damascus and Baghdad. The US is now the defacto pro-Shia Air Force in Iraq and Syria.
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Re: Obama to build coalition of the willing, war in Iraq

Unread postby Keith_McClary » Wed 24 Sep 2014, 17:05:22

Plantagenet wrote:Gosh....that sounds great. A "war on war" :roll: .

He was just quoting Sheikh Abdullah Bin Bayyah.
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Re: Obama to build coalition of the willing, war in Iraq

Unread postby Plantagenet » Wed 24 Sep 2014, 17:37:22

The war on war continues----just now the US is blowing up the Syrian oil refineries that were captured and used by the Caliphate

US warplanes blow up Syrian oil refineries and other oil infrastructure

I wonder if the US will eventually pay war reparations to the Syrian government for blowing up their oil refineries? This reminds me of when Clinton blew up an aspirin factory in Sudan----the US eventually had to pay reparations for that. If the US won't pay up voluntarily, it seems to me the Syrians would have a pretty good legal case for demanding war reparations from obama and the US if they took their case to the ICC at the Hague, especially since there is no UN resolution authorizing the US to attack Syria. 8)
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Re: Obama to build coalition of the willing, war in Iraq

Unread postby Sixstrings » Wed 24 Sep 2014, 18:59:15

Plantagenet wrote:Open up your eyes and accept the new reality---Obama has taken the US into a new war in both Iraq ----and also in Syria.


Things have ramped up a lot just today, in one day, on all fronts.

* French hostage held by muslim terrorists in Algeria; they threaten to behead him and video it, in support of ISIS

* German man now held hostage by muslim terrorists in Philliphines; again they aren't ISIS but say they swear allegiance to ISIS and are gonna behead this guy

So the above, is alarming.

Oil wells hit. Good job!

Then, Obama's speech at the UN. Speech was a little mixed up overall, but, it was a tough speech -- he's finding his feet as a wartime president:

There can be no reasoning – no negotiation – with this brand of evil. The only language understood by killers like this is the language of force. So the United States of America will work with a broad coalition to dismantle this network of death.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/full-text-of-president-obamas-2014-address-to-the-united-nations-general-assembly/2014/09/24/88889e46-43f4-11e4-b437-1a7368204804_story.html


Some echoes of "Axis of Evil," in Obama's speech, mixing in Russia and ISIL. He calls ISIL "the heart of darkness," in the next breath after essentially accusing Russia of trampling on little countries.

CNN showed the Russian delegation giggling, slapping their knees, and laughing during the Russia part.

Russian aggression in Europe recalls the days when large nations trampled small ones in pursuit of territorial ambition. The brutality of terrorists in Syria and Iraq forces us to look into the heart of darkness.

It would take another World War to roll back the forces of fascism and racial supremacy, and form this United Nations to ensure that no nation can subjugate its neighbors and claim their territory.

Russia’s actions in Ukraine challenge this post-war order. Here are the facts. After the people of Ukraine mobilized popular protests and calls for reform, their corrupt President fled. Against the will of the government in Kiev, Crimea was annexed. Russia poured arms into Eastern Ukraine, fueling violent separatists and a conflict that has killed thousands. When a civilian airliner was shot down from areas that these proxies controlled, they refused to allow access to the crash for days. When Ukraine started to reassert control over its territory, Russia gave up the pretense of merely supporting the separatists, and moved troops across the border.

This is a vision of the world in which might makes right – a world in which one nation’s borders can be redrawn by another, and civilized people are not allowed to recover the remains of their loved ones because of the truth that might be revealed. America stands for something different. We believe that right makes might – that bigger nations should not be able to bully smaller ones; that people should be able to choose their own future.

These are simple truths, but they must be defended.
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Re: Obama to build coalition of the willing, war in Iraq

Unread postby Plantagenet » Wed 24 Sep 2014, 19:19:41

Sixstrings wrote:French hostage held by muslim terrorists in Algeria; they threaten to behead him and video it, in support of ISIS


They just beheaded him. :cry:

Considering that the French are helping us in our war on war in Iraq and Syria, I imagine we'll have to help them out if they decide to have a war on war in Algeria.
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Re: Obama to build coalition of the willing, war in Iraq

Unread postby Keith_McClary » Thu 25 Sep 2014, 14:02:13

The newspaper “al-Watan” (The Nation), which is close to the regime of President Bashar al-Assad, quoted Syrian diplomatic sources as saying that “The US military leadership is now fighting in the same trenches with the Syrian generals, in a war on terrorism inside Syria and on its eastern and southeastern borders.” This is true, the Syrian diplomats said, even though Washington and Damascus cannot acknowledge the cooperation for internal political reasons.
They added that “the Syrian Army will certainly benefit from the American air strikes, especially since it is the strongest force on the ground, possessing both power and flexibility in the way it moves around in the field. It is the one that will benefit from the air strikes.”
The Syrian ambassador to the UN was also delighted that the UN Security Council has adopted a resolution condemning the trafficking to Syria of a wide range of would-be guerrillas.
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Re: Obama to build coalition of the willing, war in Iraq

Unread postby Withnail » Thu 25 Sep 2014, 14:19:09

Plantagenet wrote:
Sixstrings wrote:French hostage held by muslim terrorists in Algeria; they threaten to behead him and video it, in support of ISIS


They just beheaded him. :cry:

Considering that the French are helping us in our war on war in Iraq and Syria, I imagine we'll have to help them out if they decide to have a war on war in Algeria.


how about a war on beheadings?

But don't bombs sometimes behead people?

Sixstrings wrote:
CNN showed the Russian delegation giggling, slapping their knees, and laughing during the Russia part.

Russian aggression in Europe recalls the days when large nations trampled small ones in pursuit of territorial ambition. The brutality of terrorists in Syria and Iraq forces us to look into the heart of darkness.

It would take another World War to roll back the forces of fascism and racial supremacy, and form this United Nations to ensure that no nation can subjugate its neighbors and claim their territory.

Russia’s actions in Ukraine challenge this post-war order. Here are the facts. After the people of Ukraine mobilized popular protests and calls for reform, their corrupt President fled. Against the will of the government in Kiev, Crimea was annexed. Russia poured arms into Eastern Ukraine, fueling violent separatists and a conflict that has killed thousands. When a civilian airliner was shot down from areas that these proxies controlled, they refused to allow access to the crash for days. When Ukraine started to reassert control over its territory, Russia gave up the pretense of merely supporting the separatists, and moved troops across the border.

This is a vision of the world in which might makes right – a world in which one nation’s borders can be redrawn by another, and civilized people are not allowed to recover the remains of their loved ones because of the truth that might be revealed. America stands for something different. We believe that right makes might – that bigger nations should not be able to bully smaller ones; that people should be able to choose their own future.

These are simple truths, but they must be defended.


I'm not surprised the Russians were laughing, that's side splitting stuff coming from America.

Obama did well not to crack a smile.
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Re: Obama to build coalition of the willing, war in Iraq

Unread postby radon1 » Thu 25 Sep 2014, 17:18:12

Sixstrings wrote:Against the will of the government in Kiev, Crimea was annexed.


Poor, poor, poor government in Kiev. :? [smilie=eusa_doh.gif] [smilie=eusa_doh.gif] What a suffering for them. So much grief and compassion from all the corners of the square mile around Obomba, also known as "the world" in his speeches, for the plight of those caring and deserving government people in Kiev.

Is it really possible to read this speech without a good laugh. No need for comedian, Obomba would do. Who is writing speeches for his teleprompter? This sounds totally tasteless - "against the will of the government". Any sensible democratic leader would say "against the will of the people". Or is he totally carried away and doesn't really care about all those second-rated "peoples" in those wierd places like Kiev.
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Re: Obama to build coalition of the willing, war in Iraq

Unread postby Withnail » Fri 26 Sep 2014, 08:20:59

Brave Denmark to send 7 fighter jets to Iraq to fight terrorism.

The Danes are truly heroes, despite Six Strings' lies and slander against them.

http://online.wsj.com/articles/denmark- ... 1411733183
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Re: Obama to build coalition of the willing, war in Iraq

Unread postby ennui2 » Sat 27 Sep 2014, 11:53:54

Keith_McClary wrote:so all those unpopular kings, emirs, sultans and dictators could keep themselves in power. I guess it seemed like a good idea at the time.


What would you prefer to see rather than those unpopular kings, emirs, sultans? Would you like to see them overthrown in a popular revolt? How many arab-spring efforts besides maybe Tunisia seem to be leaning its country towards a peaceful and moderate democracy? This really is nothing but a circle-jerk of whining and complaining in this thread but offering nothing constructive beyond some vague notion of absolute isolationism on the part of the US.
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Re: Obama to build coalition of the willing, war in Iraq

Unread postby Plantagenet » Sat 27 Sep 2014, 12:26:29

ennui2 wrote:What would you prefer to see rather than those unpopular kings, emirs, sultans? ...


Now you are getting into long term strategy, and Obama doesn't have a strategy, as he admitted himself.

Just sit back and enjoy the bombing. Boom! Booom! Booom! Don't worry about what will result or what the long term plan is because there isn't any.

The Israelis have a term for this kind of thing---they call the pointless little wars that they have with Hamas every few years "mowing the grass". The Israeli airforce knocks down a few buildings, kills off a few Hamas leaders and a thousand or so fighters, and knocks down the infrastructure in Gaza. Its just "mowing the grass" to keep them down for a few years.

The US is now doing the same thing. Blow up a few oil refineries in Syria, kill off some Sunni mllitants, push back the Sunni rebels and protect the Shia regime in Iraq. Boom boom boom. That'll keep 'em down.

Obama's bombing campaign against the terrorists is just "mowing the grass". There is no long term plan for Iraq or Syria. :roll:
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Re: Obama to build coalition of the willing, war in Iraq

Unread postby Keith_McClary » Sat 27 Sep 2014, 15:37:26

ennui2 wrote:
Keith_McClary wrote:so all those unpopular kings, emirs, sultans and dictators could keep themselves in power. I guess it seemed like a good idea at the time.


What would you prefer to see rather than those unpopular kings, emirs, sultans? Would you like to see them overthrown in a popular revolt? How many arab-spring efforts besides maybe Tunisia seem to be leaning its country towards a peaceful and moderate democracy? This really is nothing but a circle-jerk of whining and complaining in this thread but offering nothing constructive beyond some vague notion of absolute isolationism on the part of the US.
I never said I had a solution. Just pointing out how you got into a predicament where there is no good strategy. Mainly by making self serving alliances with scumbag thugs over the decades.
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Re: Obama to build coalition of the willing, war in Iraq

Unread postby ennui2 » Sat 27 Sep 2014, 23:30:16

Keith_McClary wrote:Mainly by making self serving alliances with scumbag thugs over the decades.


I dunno. If we hadn't allied with the USSR during WWII we'd probably all be speaking German. Sometimes you have to put your morals aside for the sake of frying a bigger fish and deal with the rest later. So it all depends on whether the objective in cutting a deal with the devil was worth it or not.
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Re: Obama to build coalition of the willing, war in Iraq

Unread postby Keith_McClary » Sun 28 Sep 2014, 00:37:09

ennui2 wrote:
Keith_McClary wrote:Mainly by making self serving alliances with scumbag thugs over the decades.


I dunno. If we hadn't allied with the USSR during WWII we'd probably all be speaking German. Sometimes you have to put your morals aside for the sake of frying a bigger fish and deal with the rest later. So it all depends on whether the objective in cutting a deal with the devil was worth it or not.

Bad analogy. The motivation for allying with the scumbag kings, emirs, sultans and dictators was very different. A big oily immoral profitable fish fry.
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Re: Obama to build coalition of the willing, war in Iraq

Unread postby ennui2 » Sun 28 Sep 2014, 10:24:53

Keith_McClary wrote:Bad analogy. The motivation for allying with the scumbag kings, emirs, sultans and dictators was very different. A big oily immoral profitable fish fry.


OK. So outline to us an alternative history in which we did NOT ally ourselves with scumbag kings, emirs, sultans, and dictators. The thing about blaming government for being driven by resource grabs is that it ignores the reality that we ultimately benefit from that access to those resources. So ultimately they do the dirty work to support our lifestyles so we can have the luxury to shove off the blame to them instead of us.
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Re: Obama to build coalition of the willing, war in Iraq

Unread postby Ibon » Sun 28 Sep 2014, 10:52:12

I would propose an alternative. And this might be naive but perhaps not.

Let this ISIS take the region as far as it can. Do not intervene. Do absolutely nothing. Allow the countries affected to react. I have a theory about what would happen and it is analogous to viruses. ISIS in the beginning is lethal and deadly and chopping heads off and maybe even targets the west to some degree but as time goes by like a virus it loses its lethalness in the interaction with the ME countries it is trying to dominate and yes this is all a terrible civil war. But it is allowed to play out and purge out of its system all the primitive elements like SeaGypsy mentions is still cooking in this ISLAM soup at the moment. And on the far side of this regional civil war you start to finally see the countries establish new borders and a new society and miraculously within 20-30 year join the international community. Because they were given the chance to purge the poison that is cooking in the ISLAM collective.

Look at the civil war in the US and slavery and all that needed purged. Look at reformation in europe and the bloody process of separating church and state that we went through. In these two cases there was no super power intervening.

Why not just leave this region alone to figure this stuff out. Without super power intervention it seems logical to me that they will very quickly turn inward and focus on resolving their own cultural demons.

Is this naive?
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Re: Obama to build coalition of the willing, war in Iraq

Unread postby Strummer » Sun 28 Sep 2014, 12:18:53

Ibon wrote:Why not just leave this region alone to figure this stuff out.


Because Israel controls US foreign policy and Israel would never allow that.
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Re: Obama to build coalition of the willing, war in Iraq

Unread postby Plantagenet » Sun 28 Sep 2014, 12:31:13

Strummer wrote:
Ibon wrote:Why not just leave this region alone to figure this stuff out.


Because Israel controls US foreign policy and Israel would never allow that.


Because Obama was down in the polls and he thought he'd wave the flag and start a little war (i.e. wag the dog) to get his poll numbers back up just before the November election.
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Re: Obama to build coalition of the willing, war in Iraq

Unread postby Keith_McClary » Sun 28 Sep 2014, 14:54:46

Ibon wrote:Look at the civil war in the US and slavery and all that needed purged. Look at reformation in europe and the bloody process of separating church and state that we went through. In these two cases there was no super power intervening.

Why not just leave this region alone to figure this stuff out. Without super power intervention it seems logical to me that they will very quickly turn inward and focus on resolving their own cultural demons.

Is this naive?
Any tendency towards modern, secular, educated, technologically advanced societies in the region has been seen as a threat to the interests of oil consuming countries. That's why these anachronistic regimes have been kept in power.

People talk about strategies or solutions but I haven't heard anyone articulate what is the end result they are working towards.
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Re: Obama to build coalition of the willing, war in Iraq

Unread postby Tanada » Tue 07 Oct 2014, 07:57:47

Isn't it funny that ISIS is still progressing just about everywhere yet the media has suddenly turned a blind eye to them and is focusing obsessively on Ebola?
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To strive, to seek, to find, and not to yield.
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