North American Fuel Shortage Reports

[aflurry]

you don't wanna a massive riot situation in Hell A for exemple.

you can't riot if you can't get to the riot.

[TWilliam]

price of gas dropping here in VA and let me say that rationing IS the correct thing to do once shortages hit. the system we have is only as strong as some of it's weaker links. for example, what good does it do anyone if the owner of say a grocery chain could buy all the gas he wants, but the poor saps who unload the food delivery trucks can't get to work to get the produce into the store?

Dude let the markets work and people be free to pay what they want. I despise the idiots who are in this "better red than dead" mentality. The governement has already clearly failed... why give it even more means to screw up????

What you, my friend, fail to realize is that the government failure of which you speak is precisely a failure to REGULATE THE MARKET, especially the financial markets. The alphabet soup, 'spread the risk' Ponzi scheme of CDOs, MBSs and all the other 'toxic paper' that was allowed to proliferate throughout the world marketplace was only able to commence as a result of the DE-regulation of the banking and credit industries. The predictable result is the same as what always happens when greed is given free reign; it ultimately kills the goose --destroying itself in the process-- which is what we are now beginning to witness.

[MattSavinar]

THERE ARE NO SHORTAGES IN A FREE MARKET

In 4 years of following this board, I don't think I've laughed as hard as I just did.

[vision-master]

THERE ARE NO SHORTAGES IN A FREE MARKET.

In 4 years of following this board, I don't think I've laughed as hard as I just did.

+1

[dinopello]

Dude let the markets work and people be free to pay what they want.

How about everyone get their 4 gals/week stamps and those who can do without them are free to resell them for whatever the market will bear?

Something like that would be interesting - a rationed free market. With the internet (craigslist etc) and easy and secure payment systems (paypal etc) it could be a very fluid and efficient market. A good system would reward those that have or can migrate to a lower energy lifestyle.

[dsula]

THERE ARE NO SHORTAGES IN A FREE MARKET.

In 4 years of following this board, I don't think I've laughed as hard as I just did.

Already 4 years on the board and you still didn't finish high school, dude you gotta shape up, some concepts require some education to understand.

[vision-master]

THERE ARE NO SHORTAGES IN A FREE MARKET.

In 4 years of following this board, I don't think I've laughed as hard as I just did.

Already 4 years on the board and you still didn't finish high school, dude you gotta shape up, some concepts require some education to understand.

Education about PO? Like what, some economics school?

[dsula]

Education about PO? Like what, some economics school?

of course, like for example the definition of an ideal free market or what a distorted market is. do you know it? (some advice on the side: don't drink red stripe beer. I'm trying it right now and that stuff stinks!)

[vision-master]

Education about PO? Like what, some economics school?

of course, like for example the definition of an ideal free market or what a distorted market is. do you know it? (some advice on the side: don't drink red stripe beer. I'm trying it right now and that stuff stinks!)

1st off, there is no such thing as "free market economy".

[GoghGoner]

Uber-doomer Matt Simmons is at again with this Fortune article on gasoline shortages:

As he told me the other day: "If we end up having gasoline shortages, the odds are about 90% that Americans will do what we always do: We'll top up our tanks. And in topping up our tanks, within three or four days we'll drain the pool dry and then within seven days we'll run out of food."

That sounds awfully dire. And it probably won't happen. But, then again, a couple of months ago hardly anybody would have predicted that AIG would collapse, Congress would be mulling a Wall Street bailout, and '70s-era gas lines would be back.

LINK

[dsula]

1st off, there is no such thing as "free market economy".

the definition of free market is not dependent on its existence.
I said in a free market there are no shortages. I did not say it exists. Nevertheless it should be the country's goal to get as close to the ideal as possible.

[Loki]

[quote="neocone"link Betcha our newly socialist powers will do the exact opposite of what is right: Ration the thing instead of letting those who can afford it buy it at will. I have the feeling Freedom of the Market ain't that free anymore... to paraphrase the need for the Patriot act.[/quote]
"Freedom of the Market"??? Pfff Good one. Google "$700 Billion" and get back to me about this mystical "market freedom" that I keep hearing about.

Should fuel shortages hit the US, rationing will be the solution (cf. WWII). Studying the history of the 1930s and 1940s will seem like looking into a crystal ball into the future.

[dsula]

Should fuel shortages hit the US, rationing will be the solution (cf. WWII). Studying the history of the 1930s and 1940s will seem like looking into a crystal ball into the future.

when (not should) fuel shortages hit the US, free market is the solution, however rationing will be implemented. good God guys, is this so difficult ?

[smiley]

when (not should) fuel shortages hit the US, free market is the solution, however rationing will be implemented. good God guys, is this so difficult ?

rationing --> shortage of fuel
free market --> shortage of cash
I've seen both and they both suck.

Cuba has kind of a rationing system. It is not exactly coupon rationing but they did freeze the fuel prices. Some people are driving around more or less for fun, while others who need it for work have a hard time finding fuel.

Indonesia had a free market. Result was that ordinary people couldn't buy fuel while the rich were cruising around in SUV's. After a series of protests (riots) they introduced a fuel subsidy for the poor. That is not something you want either.

There is no elegant way of getting out of a fuel shortage. There are however elegant ways of preventing getting into one:
- Progressive taxing on cars by weight and fuel consumption.
- Progressive taxing on second and third cars.
- Relocation subsidies, for people moving closer to work.
- etc

But since these measures mean that people have to change their habits and have to make investments (like buying a more fuel efficient car) you don't want to wait until there are real shortages and people have money nor time to get organised.

Free market cannot do this since it lacks the requiered foresight and vision. Markets act on developments as they are happening and to a small extend in anticiaption of (near) future developments. But they are not capable of developing a vision, nor are they are capable of realizing such a vision.

Depending on the free markets is like the guy in the Winnabago who put the thing on cruise control on the highway and went to the back to make himself a nice cup of coffee. It is naive and dangerous.

[BrazilianPO]

THERE ARE NO SHORTAGES IN A FREE MARKET.

In 4 years of following this board, I don't think I've laughed as hard as I just did.

Actually dsula is right. If I have only 10 gallons of gas in my station and it is the only one within 100 km with some gas, I can put prices up to 1000 a gallon. A single rich car owner will buy all of it and then he will be killed by the mob outside the station on his way home. People will not enjoy seeing a rich guy buying the gas that they need to take their sick kid to hospital.

[cube]

... the markets are why we are here in the first place. they do not work as well as advertised. they are short sighted, stupid, lack the ability to properly prioritize, and react too slowly to crisis.

Congratulations you have now convinced me beyond a shadow of a doubt you truly do NOT understand what you're saying. From now on I will consider your time here on PO.com as a source of comic relief instead of serious commentary.

[VMarcHart]

and let me say that rationing IS the correct thing to do once shortages hit. the system we have is only as strong as some of it's weaker links. for example, what good does it do anyone if the owner of say a grocery chain could buy all the gas he wants, but the poor saps who unload the food delivery trucks can't get to work to get the produce into the store?

Absolutely and totally wrong. If the poor sabs can't go to work, the grocery chain will have to pay more salery so the saps can get to work. Any goverment control will distort the market and make it less efficient, encouraging waste. Who can pay for it should get it.

you won't get anything. you know why? cause the poor sap that runs the cash register at the gas station won't be able to get there. get the picture yet?

Won't the poor saps find jobs closer to their homes and be less or not dependent on gasoline at all?

[Grimnir]

So what are the odds we run out of gas just in time to ensure poor people can't make it to the polls?

[VMarcHart]

So what are the odds we run out of gas just in time to ensure poor people can't make it to the polls?

Voting is a neighborhood event. All and all, you probably can walk to your voting place, although, here in the US, God forbid you don't drive.

[Loki]

We have vote-by-mail here in Oregon. No need to drive anywhere.

As for the "free market will provide" mantra, I don't have any use for religious beliefs. The faith-based free marketeers can claim anything they want, but it's all based on fantasy, on unproven theory. I'm more interested in how things will actually go down in the real world (i.e., rationing), not how your religion has the answers to all problems.