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non-conventional oil

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non-conventional oil

Unread postby smiley » Mon 26 Jul 2004, 15:01:35

I think this presentation gives a nice overview of the challenges associated with non-conventional oil.

http://www.iea.org/Textbase/work/2004/opec/knapp.pdf

Update on Competitiveness of Update on Competitiveness of Non-Conventional oil
David Knapp
Energy Intelligence Group

Second Joint IEA/OPEC Workshop on Oil Investment Prospects

Paris, April 28, 2004 Paris, April 28, 2004
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Re: non-conventional oil

Unread postby Tanada » Sat 02 Sep 2017, 11:39:56

An interesting refresher on what we know compared to what we thought we knew.
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Re: non-conventional oil

Unread postby pstarr » Sat 02 Sep 2017, 12:57:41

Tanada wrote:An interesting refresher on what we know compared to what we thought we knew.

Not surprisingly, it appears we now know less (from the link)
Uh oh, something's not right

That page doesn't appear to exist
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Re: non-conventional oil

Unread postby ROCKMAN » Sat 02 Sep 2017, 14:52:01

P - And what do we know now?
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Re: non-conventional oil

Unread postby AdamB » Sat 02 Sep 2017, 17:34:27

ROCKMAN wrote:P - And what do we know now?


Hard to say. The link doesn't work, and no one has been able to explain the difference in at the very how many more or less carbon and hydrogen atoms are in this special non-conventional oil versus the normal stuff.
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Re: non-conventional oil

Unread postby GHung » Sat 02 Sep 2017, 17:40:34

AdamB wrote:
ROCKMAN wrote:P - And what do we know now?


Hard to say. The link doesn't work, and no one has been able to explain the difference in at the very how many more or less carbon and hydrogen atoms are in this special non-conventional oil versus the normal stuff.


Is that gross carbon and hydrocarbons or net?
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Re: non-conventional oil

Unread postby onlooker » Sat 02 Sep 2017, 17:49:04

We know that EROEI has been steadily falling especially with the focus on non conventional. We know that the Shale/fracking has been relying on high lending to produce. Other than that, I am will not comment as I know we have experts who are more qualified to opine.
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Re: non-conventional oil

Unread postby Tanada » Sat 02 Sep 2017, 20:33:14

pstarr wrote:
Tanada wrote:An interesting refresher on what we know compared to what we thought we knew.

Not surprisingly, it appears we now know less (from the link)
Uh oh, something's not right

That page doesn't appear to exist


Try this link, IEA changed everything a couple years ago so I had to dig out the direct link.

www.worldenergyoutlook.org/media/weoweb ... EO2004.pdf
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Re: non-conventional oil

Unread postby ROCKMAN » Sat 02 Sep 2017, 20:53:15

Looker - "We know that EROEI has been steadily falling especially with the focus on non conventional." No, we don't actually. The EROEI of what gets drilled is very dependent upon the price of oil as well as other factors. As explained before when oil prices shot upwards about 10 years ago it took less bbls of oil (which generated higher revenue due to high prices) to generate an acceptable rate of return. Thus EROEI decreased significantly...however it was calculated. But when oil prices fell a couple not years ago a well had to produce more bbls to generate the same revenue to produce that same acceptable ROR. Which is why the rig count fell: there were much fewer of the remaining prospects that would produce that sufficient number of bbls. Even the current rig count indicates a lack of larger recovers to justify drilling as many prospects as we did during the boom.

Simply put the EROEI (however it!s calculated) of wells drilled today had to increase significantly compared to those drilled a few years ago. And if oil prices decrease further EROEI will continue to increase. Conversely if oil prices increase to former levels the EROEI will decrease as it did 10 years ago.

Now let's look at a completely unrealistic model: oil prices stay at the current level for the next 50 years. Also assume the amount of energy used to drill remains the same. IOW no great new technology to increase drilling efficiency. So the cost (in both Btu's and $'s) remain the same and companies hold to the same required ROR the EROEI will hold constant. But given the decreasing number of sufficiently large prospects remaining fewer and fewer wells will be drilled. In theory there might be only one prospect that's economical to drill in 2067. And its EROEI will be the same as those drilled today.

Back to the same point repeatedly made: the industry has never, does not today and will never make drilling decisions based on any calculation using EROEI. Those decisions are based on economic analysis.
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Re: non-conventional oil

Unread postby ROCKMAN » Sat 02 Sep 2017, 21:12:10

And once more: the is no thing as "unconventional oil". There is oil produced from reservoirs using unconventional completion methods. Or if you like we can call those unconventional reservoirs. But as far as the molecular structure of the oil I'm producing condensate from a convention reservoir using a conventional completion method identical from a frac'd horizontal Eagle Ford Shale well. My "convention oil", if you insist, is being produced from a deep NG/condensate well in S Louisiana from a high permeability reservoir that did not require frac'ng. There have been BILLIONS OF BBLS of similar oil produced in this trend.

Oil is oil regardless of its API gravety, if it's from a frac'd well or not, from a vertical or horizontal well. I can give you a sample of 44 API oil and no lab analysis will tell if it came from the EFS or my Louisiana well.

This confusion has been going on too long.
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Re: non-conventional oil

Unread postby AdamB » Sun 03 Sep 2017, 09:41:05

GHung wrote:
AdamB wrote:
ROCKMAN wrote:P - And what do we know now?


Hard to say. The link doesn't work, and no one has been able to explain the difference in at the very how many more or less carbon and hydrogen atoms are in this special non-conventional oil versus the normal stuff.


Is that gross carbon and hydrocarbons or net?


I think it was only hydrocarbons discovered in igneous rock. Very non-conventional.
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Re: non-conventional oil

Unread postby AdamB » Sun 03 Sep 2017, 09:47:21

onlooker wrote:We know that EROEI has been steadily falling especially with the focus on non conventional.


We know that EROEI has been CLAIMED to be falling for half a century, and yet fuel prices today are about the same as half a century ago. So anyone who isn't Shorty can demonstrate that the correlation coefficient of this relationship appears meaningless.

onlooker wrote: We know that the Shale/fracking has been relying on high lending to produce.


We know that the oil industry has needed to borrow money to drill and complete wells since 1859 when Drake did it, and more borrowing is done in boom times as companies try and grow, and that none of this is dependent on what the particular completion technique is.

onlooker wrote: Other than that, I am will not comment as I know we have experts who are more qualified to opine.


We know that the experts who discuss EROEI know nothing about the oil and gas business, because those that do understand why it is irrelevant. And we know that the oil and gas companies have been borrowing money and horizontal drilling and hydraulic fracturing since before many on this forum weree born, and the most recent boom was no different than all the others that modern peakers ignore in their rush to claim the next hoped for peak.
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Re: non-conventional oil

Unread postby rockdoc123 » Sun 03 Sep 2017, 09:57:42

Oil is oil regardless of its API gravety, if it's from a frac'd well or not, from a vertical or horizontal well. I can give you a sample of 44 API oil and no lab analysis will tell if it came from the EFS or my Louisiana well.
This confusion has been going on too long.


As with most things a term used to describe one thing gets used elsewhere on something entirely different and then again on something related but also different resulting in a term without a very good definition. This generally isn't a problem for oil and gas folks who understand what is being referred to depending on the context...it is more of a problem for the general public who latch on to a term without understanding the true meaning. There was a poster given at the 2012 AAPG convention in Long Beach that addresses the issues and proposes a solution.


http://www.searchanddiscovery.com/documents/2012/80217cander/ndx_cander
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Re: non-conventional oil

Unread postby AdamB » Sun 03 Sep 2017, 09:59:07

ROCKMAN wrote:And once more: the is no thing as "unconventional oil". There is oil produced from reservoirs using unconventional completion methods.


And these might be? Those pumping walnut shells as proppant? Pureed bunny rabbits perhaps?

Admittedly, it was back in the 80's when I was pumping water and sand down well bores, using unconventional retrievable bridge plugs, unconventional perf balls. Do they even do perforating nowadays, on a wireline, or has that been replaced with unconventional lasers? How about pre-perfed liners and coiled tubing, have those all been replaced with unconventional dilithium crystal powered new stuff?

Rockman wrote:
Or if you like we can call those unconventional reservoirs.


Did the geologists really create a new name for reservoir rock beyond sandstone, shale, marlstone, limestone, mudstone, packstone and jam an "unconventional" in there somewhere? Or maybe there is a new combination of P and P that when seen together, isn't called "tight", but "unconventional"?

Rockman wrote:Oil is oil regardless of its API gravety, if it's from a frac'd well or not, from a vertical or horizontal well. I can give you a sample of 44 API oil and no lab analysis will tell if it came from the EFS or my Louisiana well.

This confusion has been going on too long.


It should be. I'm about ready to call up someone at the USGS and give them a piece of my non-geologist mind over the confusion they all allowing to be sown because they won't give us the exact definition of which combinations of which rocks or fluid properties or rock characteristics form this new, and previously unknown rock called "unconventional". I shall demand clarity on behalf of peakers everywhere.
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Re: non-conventional oil

Unread postby AdamB » Sun 03 Sep 2017, 10:10:04

rockdoc123 wrote:
Oil is oil regardless of its API gravety, if it's from a frac'd well or not, from a vertical or horizontal well. I can give you a sample of 44 API oil and no lab analysis will tell if it came from the EFS or my Louisiana well.
This confusion has been going on too long.


As with most things a term used to describe one thing gets used elsewhere on something entirely different and then again on something related but also different resulting in a term without a very good definition. This generally isn't a problem for oil and gas folks who understand what is being referred to depending on the context...it is more of a problem for the general public who latch on to a term without understanding the true meaning. There was a poster given at the 2012 AAPG convention in Long Beach that addresses the issues and proposes a solution.


http://www.searchanddiscovery.com/documents/2012/80217cander/ndx_cander


I was at that AAPG meeting. It was the same one where the USGS released their world reserve growth estimates. And your reference is reasonable in what it lays out, but it wants to include fluid properties as part of what makes something "unconventional". Basically, your reference says that bad rock and bad fluid properties in some combination make something unconventional. Fairly simplistic, and it does tend to focus on common characteristics of what some want to label "unconventional". Really though, it could be labeled "more expensive to develop" as well.

It doesn't appear to cover the offshore well, Colin Campbell was always trying to label most anything under water as "unconventional", when really, it was a standard higher P and P reservoir under water. Obviously the peaker bias is in here somewhere, anything other than "what I am doing today" can be called "unconventional" by the technically ignorant.
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Re: non-conventional oil

Unread postby ROCKMAN » Sun 03 Sep 2017, 15:28:49

Doc - And here's the problem with that poster being used for classification: The Greta Sand (32% porosity and 1+ DARCY perm) I'm redeveloping with horizontal wells that ARE NOT frac'd has a gravity of 22 API. Not a terribly heavy oil but with such a high viscosity it has a flow character more similar to a 11 API. Which is why there's about 40 million bbls of oil left in the reservoir. It should have a very strong bottom water drive but it doesn't thanks to the oil mobility problem. BTW 28 million bbls of oil was recovered by vertical wells with plain vanilla conventional completions. But recovered that oil very slowly.

So how would you classify it?
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Re: non-conventional oil

Unread postby ROCKMAN » Sun 03 Sep 2017, 15:41:15

Adam - True: in my geologic would there are reservoirs as you describe: sandstone, etc. And oil is oil regardless of it gravity, permeability of the reservoir, etc. The only time we use conventional/unconventional is to describe the completion method used. IOW there's no confusion when we communicate.
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Re: non-conventional oil

Unread postby rockdoc123 » Sun 03 Sep 2017, 16:09:06

So how would you classify it?


Having dealt with low api oil with low viscosities and higher api oil with higher viscosities or low/high high/low, my view is that when it comes to heavy oil if you can get it to cold flow and the reservoir is conventional in the sense of permeability then it is best to refer to it as conventional. IF on the other hand it doesn't cold flow and you need to use huff and puff or some other form of stimulation to get the oil to flow then I would call it unconventional. That is the reason why the oil sands have been referred to as unconventional...high porosity, high permeability but very high viscosity. I think the problem is there is quite a broad continuum from the purely conventional to the purely unconventional and confusion can arise when you get too far from anyone end member.
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Re: non-conventional oil

Unread postby shortonoil » Sun 03 Sep 2017, 18:17:26

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Re: non-conventional oil

Unread postby Cog » Sun 03 Sep 2017, 19:05:31

shortonoil wrote:https://srsroccoreport.com/trouble-financing-its-debt-massive-decline-rates-pushes-u-s-shale-oil-industry-closer-towards-bankruptcy/

Would you loan them money?


I'm pretty sure I wouldn't loan YOU money. Sounds like just another call for donations shorty. ETP report not selling well? :lol:

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