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No Progress toward C-Free Economy in 20 Years

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Re: No Progress toward C-Free Economy in 20 Years

Unread postby Cog » Fri 18 Dec 2015, 16:55:14

I've never liked being cold. Looks like that is one thing off my worry list.
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Re: No Progress toward C-Free Economy in 20 Years

Unread postby Plantagenet » Fri 18 Dec 2015, 16:59:05

dohboi wrote:"You can beg China and India and other nations not to build coal-fired plants all you want, but begging isn't going to make the Chinese stop."

India, either, apparently:

India still plans to double coal output by 2020 and rely on the resource for decades afterwards, a senior official said on Monday, days after rich and poor countries agreed in Paris to curb carbon emissions blamed for global warming....
...there were limitations to clean energy and coal would remain the most efficient energy source for decades, he said.


http://www.desdemonadespair.net/2015/12 ... -wont.html


The Paris Treaty placed no limit on India or China building coal-fired plants.

Its utterly futile to complain now that the UN treaty is signed---the place to make progress on reducing coal use and carbon production was in the gosh darn Paris treaty. Unfortunately Obama and the rest of the world leaders decided to kick the problem down the road instead.

cheers!
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Re: No Progress toward C-Free Economy in 20 Years

Unread postby GHung » Fri 18 Dec 2015, 17:12:09

Plant said; "Boy I can tell you've never been to China. You'd last about 30 seconds waving "a big freakin sign" around in Tienamen Square---the Chinese military is everywhere there and so are the Chinese plainclothes security police."

Holy chit, Plant, you're as thick as a freakin' brick. I was being ironical in response to your previous idiotic comment, and you actually fell for it? Wew!

"So you ride yourselves over the fields and
you make all your animal deals and
your wise men don't know how it feels to be thick as a brick."

https://youtu.be/u9bk2MrMGaA

"Really don't mind if you sit this one out"....

BTW, Plant, I've travelled and/or lived in 43 countries, last count. I think I have a pretty good idea how things work.
Blessed are the Meek, for they shall inherit nothing but their Souls. - Anonymous Ghung Person
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Re: No Progress toward C-Free Economy in 20 Years

Unread postby Plantagenet » Fri 18 Dec 2015, 18:24:18

GHung wrote:Plant said; " You'd last about 30 seconds waving "a big freakin sign" around in Tienamen Square---the Chinese military is everywhere there and so are the Chinese plainclothes security police."

Holy chit, Plant, you're as thick as a freakin' brick.


Holy chit, Ghung---You're the thickie who proposed to go to Tienamen Square and wave a "a big freakin sign" begging the Chinese not to build more coal-fired power plants.

I think we both now agree your idea was dumb---but you think seem to think that by saying something incredibly dumb you were being ironic.

I hate to break it to you but there is a difference between saying dumb things and being ironic.

For something to ironic, it (1) has to be in the context of a discussion and (2) it has to be humorous. But (1) there was no discussion at all about protests or going to China or waving protest signs or anything of the sort before you made your dumb statement and (2) your statement wasn't humorous but mocking, i.e. you proposed that I go to China and live out your dumb fantasy.----therefore your statement was not ironic.

For an example of irony, see my statement in italics above to you. Ironically, my statement actually is the ironic one, because (1) it IS very much in the context of your prior dumb statement--in fact its a direct response to you and (2) it is ever so slightly funny, which is as much as one can expect from irony which is one of the lowest forms of humor.

See the difference now?

PS: and do we need the name-calling? Are you going to claim your name-calling is ironic as well? Nope---its just more dumbness.

Here's a suggestion-----lets just discuss the issues and leave the dumb ideas and ad homs out of it, please?

cheers!

"Its a brave new world"
---President Obama, 4/25/16
"Il bel far niente"
---traditional Italian saying
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Re: No Progress toward C-Free Economy in 20 Years

Unread postby onlooker » Fri 18 Dec 2015, 18:26:48

Funny how at this late stage we are saying why don't the Chinese do this or India do that. Or the US do this. Hell, we have had now as the original post stated 20 plus years of NO progress even as we had every reason in the world to diverge from FF back then. Anybody see any and I mean any indication that the world either the politicians or people really want to change direction? I do not. This latest Paris treaty is the perfect proof. Just alot of baloney and kicking the can down the road. Voluntary, Non enforceable and just for good measure strewn out over the entire century. What a huge JOKE. No longer is doom a state of mind it is simply reality.
“"If you think the economy is more important than the environment, try holding your breath while counting your money"”
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Re: No Progress toward C-Free Economy in 20 Years

Unread postby GHung » Fri 18 Dec 2015, 18:35:01

Thick, Plant, and dishonest to boot. If you really think I was being serious you have deep problems. But here's the thing; you really didn't think I was being serious. You want others to believe that. Nobody here is that dumb, excepting you, perhaps.

BTW: In your case, I'll call a spade a spade every time. Anyway, I'm going to burn some fossil fuels in your honor.
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Re: No Progress toward C-Free Economy in 20 Years

Unread postby Plantagenet » Fri 18 Dec 2015, 18:36:34

onlooker wrote: Anybody see any and I mean any indication that the world either the politicians or people really want to change direction? I do not. This latest Paris treaty is the perfect proof. Just alot of baloney and kicking the can down the road. Voluntary, Non enforceable and just for good measure strewn out over the entire century. What a huge JOKE. No longer is doom a state of mind it is simply reality.


I'm a tiny tiny bit more optimistic, if only because I participated as a US science delegate to of the COP meetings held as part of the UN treaty process about 15 years ago, and so I've seen a bit of this process from the inside. There are some people involved, but you need good leadership to really make progress.

The original plan at the Kyoto was for the Kyoto Accord to be a "trainer" agreement, where countries would see if they could reduce CO2 production without binding sanctions. The original idea was for a post-Kyoto Treaty to be negotiated over the next 20 years that would be legally binding and would require CO2 reductions. The post-Kyoto agreement was accepted at the Bali meeting i 2007 and was to be ratified at the Copenhagen meeting in 2009. Unfortunately Obama and the Chinese got in a tiff, and the Bali agreement was never ratified. Then Obama came up with the dumb idea of abandoning 20 years of work on the binding treaty, and instead instructed the US delegation to work towards another Kyoto-style non-binding agreement at Paris.

It didn't have to be this way---but Obama derailed the whole UN treaty process by abandoning the whole idea of crafting a treaty that would require binding limits on CO2 production.

We could still get a binding UN climate treaty to reduce global CO2 emissions sometime in the future---we just have to have better leadership from the US or another big power. Who knows---perhaps China will lead the way to a binding post-Paris treaty 20 years from now.

Cheers!

"Its a brave new world"
---President Obama, 4/25/16
"Il bel far niente"
---traditional Italian saying
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Re: No Progress toward C-Free Economy in 20 Years

Unread postby GregT » Fri 18 Dec 2015, 19:52:23

Plantagenet wrote:Unfortunately Obama and the Chinese got in a tiff, and the Bali agreement was never ratified. Then Obama came up with the dumb idea of abandoning 20 years of work on the binding treaty, and instead instructed the US delegation to work towards another Kyoto-style non-binding agreement at Paris.

It didn't have to be this way---but Obama derailed the whole UN treaty process by abandoning the whole idea of crafting a treaty that would require binding limits on CO2 production.


Is there no end to your lunacy Planter? This has been thoroughly debunked numerous times, by numerous different people.
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Re: No Progress toward C-Free Economy in 20 Years

Unread postby dohboi » Fri 18 Dec 2015, 20:15:29

http://www.commondreams.org/views/2015/ ... ialnetwork

The Paris Climate Talks and the 1.5C Target: Wartime-Scale Mobilization is Our Only Option Left

We believe humanity can still prevent civilization-destroying global warming – but only if we undertake a WWII-scale Mobilization to restore a safe climate immediately. We need to transition off of fossil fuels and carbon-intensive agriculture as soon as humanly possible. That means an emergency restructuring of the entire economy at wartime speed to achieve net zero emissions in the U.S. by 2025, net zero emissions globally by 2030, as well as an urgent effort to draw down the excess carbon dioxide that has accumulated in the atmosphere since the Industrial Revolution.


Good to hear that at least some group out there is speaking about the urgency needed to have any glimmering chance to avoid the even more horrific consequences than we face from our current and even only slightly higher global temperatures.
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Re: No Progress toward C-Free Economy in 20 Years

Unread postby GregT » Fri 18 Dec 2015, 20:19:33

dohboi wrote:http://www.commondreams.org/views/2015/12/16/paris-climate-talks-and-15c-target-wartime-scale-mobilization-our-only-option-left?utm_campaign=shareaholic&utm_medium=facebook&utm_source=socialnetwork

The Paris Climate Talks and the 1.5C Target: Wartime-Scale Mobilization is Our Only Option Left

We believe humanity can still prevent civilization-destroying global warming – but only if we undertake a WWII-scale Mobilization to restore a safe climate immediately. We need to transition off of fossil fuels and carbon-intensive agriculture as soon as humanly possible. That means an emergency restructuring of the entire economy at wartime speed to achieve net zero emissions in the U.S. by 2025, net zero emissions globally by 2030, as well as an urgent effort to draw down the excess carbon dioxide that has accumulated in the atmosphere since the Industrial Revolution.


Good to hear that at least some group out there is speaking about the urgency needed to have any glimmering chance to avoid the even more horrific consequences than we face from our current and even only slightly higher global temperatures.



At least somebody is talking about it. FWIW. Might even stir up some rare banter around the expresso machine at coffee time.
Last edited by GregT on Fri 18 Dec 2015, 20:23:44, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: No Progress toward C-Free Economy in 20 Years

Unread postby onlooker » Fri 18 Dec 2015, 20:21:26

Would of sounded alot better if those at the Paris conference would have talked this way. Oh well.
“"If you think the economy is more important than the environment, try holding your breath while counting your money"”
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Re: No Progress toward C-Free Economy in 20 Years

Unread postby GregT » Fri 18 Dec 2015, 20:28:30

onlooker wrote:Would of sounded alot better if those at the Paris conference would have talked this way. Oh well.



Oh well onlooker. It's not like it's the end of the world, or anything like that.
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Re: No Progress toward C-Free Economy in 20 Years

Unread postby onlooker » Fri 18 Dec 2015, 20:30:05

Yeah Greg nothing to see here, back to daily fare of terrorism and Kardashians. hehe.
“"If you think the economy is more important than the environment, try holding your breath while counting your money"”
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Re: No Progress toward C-Free Economy in 20 Years

Unread postby dohboi » Fri 18 Dec 2015, 20:54:15

Initiatives like this could lower commuting times and ff spent on them:

http://www.theguardian.com/technology/2 ... ?CMP=fb_us

Facebook offers employees $10,000 to live close to the office
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Re: No Progress toward C-Free Economy in 20 Years

Unread postby pasttense » Fri 18 Dec 2015, 22:13:17

Plantagenet:
Are you totally unaware of the political situation in the United States? The Republicans have zero interest in doing anything about climate change. No binding treating would have been approved by the Senate.
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Re: No Progress toward C-Free Economy in 20 Years

Unread postby GregT » Fri 18 Dec 2015, 23:27:05

pasttense wrote:Plantagenet:
Are you totally unaware of the political situation in the United States? The Republicans have zero interest in doing anything about climate change. No binding treating would have been approved by the Senate.



Planter lives in Alaska. She's somewhat separated from the motherland. During the winter cabin fever sets in big time, that, and the fear of being taken back by Russia. Look what it did to Sarah Palin. Good looking girl, but Oh My.
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Re: No Progress toward C-Free Economy in 20 Years

Unread postby Plantagenet » Sat 19 Dec 2015, 01:07:14

pasttense wrote:Plantagenet:
Are you totally unaware of the political situation in the United States? The Republicans have zero interest in doing anything about climate change. No binding treating would have been approved by the Senate.


pastense

Are you totally unaware of the problem with global warming in the world? Just because the Rs in the Senate wouldn't ratify a binding treaty doesn't mean that the UN shouldn't craft a binding treaty and other countries in the world shouldn't ratify a binding treaty to reduce CO2 emissions There were almost 200 countries in Paris---not just the USA.

Instead we had the pathetic spectacle of the United States taking the lead on WEAKENING the Paris accords to the point that no country actually has to do anything about their CO2 emissions.

Cheers!

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---President Obama, 4/25/16
"Il bel far niente"
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Re: No Progress toward C-Free Economy in 20 Years

Unread postby Lore » Sat 19 Dec 2015, 10:03:15

Why would a binding resolution be made when one of the world's biggest polluters couldn't sign it? Makes no sence.
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Re: No Progress toward C-Free Economy in 20 Years

Unread postby Tanada » Sat 04 Feb 2017, 02:59:56

I can't tell if Germany is boasting or crying over the fact that their anti-nuclear movement has increased their CO2 emissions substantially over the last decade.

German coal, gas plant output at 5-year high in January

London (Platts)--3 Feb 2017 920 am EST/1420 GMT

* January average coal output at 17.3 GW, highest since Feb 2012
* Coal, gas ramped up to offset nuclear outages, low wind, demand gains
* Day-ahead power average at 59-month high, spot spikes to 2008-high

German coal and gas-fired power plant output in January rose to its highest in almost five years as cold weather boosted demand while below average wind and record-low winter nuclear availability reduced supply, according to power generation data compiled by think-tank Fraunhofer ISE.

The increased need to ramp up even less efficient thermal power plants helped to lift the day-ahead monthly average power price to its highest since February 2012 with spot prices spiking at their highest since 2008 at the height of the cold spell in late January, S&P Global Platts data shows. Output from coal-fired power plants was 12.9 TWh in January, up 37% on year and averaging around 17.3 GW for the whole month, a level not reached since the extended cold spell back in February 2012, the data shows.

Coal also removed lignite from the top of the power mix in January with lignite plants already running near maximum available capacity.

The increased coal burn may also have aggravated supply issues for coal transport on barges down the River Rhine with both RWE and EnBW warning of potential supply interruptions for some power plants inland and especially in southern Germany.

Very low Rhine levels still prevent barges from being fully loaded with coal, adding a premium to transport, according to sources.

Cold weather across Europe also lifted demand not just in Germany but also neighboring countries, especially France and the Alpine region.

Load in Germany itself was around 7% higher on year at 45.2 TWh, according to the Fraunhofer 'energy charts' data mainly based on TSO reports.

Output from gas plants also rose to its highest level since February 2012 at 5.6 TWh, up 14% on year, but with only a limited number of gas-fired plants reporting.

The Fraunhofer ISE data does not capture the full picture for gas plants with many combined heat-power plants (CHP) not accounted for in that data, but cold weather in general will see CHP plant output ramped to near maximum levels with a number of new CHP plants helping to boost overall gas-fired power output.

LACK OF WIND, NUCLEAR OUTAGES SEE POWER PRICES SPIKE

Wind power output in January dropped below 8 TWh, down 15% on year and averaging around 10.7 GW despite reaching a new hourly record just below 36 GW, the data shows.

Daily average wind production swung between 29.5 GW on January 4 and just 1.3 GW on January 24 when German spot power prices spiked above Eur100/MWh for the first time since 2008, the data shows.

German day-ahead baseload power prices averaged at Eur51.51/MWh this January, 74% above last January, Platts pricing data shows. Finally, nuclear output registered the biggest monthly deficit, down by over 2 TWh compared to last year with just 5.7 TWh generated, the lowest for a winter month in the modern nuclear era -- amid an unprecedented winter refueling schedule for four of the remaining eight reactors due to the expiry of the nuclear fuel tax at the end of 2016.

German nuclear operators had the short refueling stops scheduled many months in advance amid generally very low power prices over recent years.


http://www.platts.com/latest-news/coal/ ... n-26654502
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Re: No Progress toward C-Free Economy in 20 Years

Unread postby ROCKMAN » Sat 04 Feb 2017, 12:53:27

T - "I can't tell if Germany is boasting or crying...". Maybe both. Crying to the greenies that Germany was forced to pick the lesser of two evils. And bragging to potential new operations that the Germany was still open for business.
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