Nine Critical Questions to Ask About Alternative Energy

[Doly]

I would love to live in a passive solar house on a south facing hillside, however my lot in the city is 35 feet by 65 feet. Not a lot of room to dump a hill of dirt and earth shelter a house.

You're lucky. I rent a tiny flat in town. Now, from the point of view of heating, tiny is good... unless you've got windows that are literally from the 19th century, leaving enough space to ventilate the flat even when you don't open the windows ever. I'd love to change these windows to better ones, but like I said, I rent. I would need a) permission from my landlady and b) be fairly certain that I'd live in here for long enough that it would compensate to change windows. Unfortunately, I have neither.

Of course, it's also completely impossible to get my own electricity by any means.

[Tanada]

You want solar electricity? Thats fine, how long does it take for them to pay off in terms of energy produced vs energy required to build them, and in economic terms how long till they pay for themselves?

"Considering that solar panels typically have useful lives of 20 years or more, the electric energy recovery will range from 400% (in the case of a 5 year energy payback) to 2000% (in the case of a 1 year energy payback).

These figures demonstrate that a barrel of oil [equivalent] invested in making solar panels can effectively generate sufficient electricity to recover the investment of that barrel of oil with 4 barrels of oil [equivalent] as a minimum and up to 20 barrels of oil in the optimistic scenario. This is like investing in a savings account at an interest rate ranging from 20% to 100%. At the low end, this is a healthy return on investment!"

http://www.ecotopia.com/apollo2/pvlever.htm

In economic terms, how long until a grid connection pays for itself?

Because i live in the city I would need a tower some 30 feet tall to hold my panals up out of the shadow of the surrounding buildings. I doubt I could get permission from the city for that any more than I could for the windmill, but at least it wouldn't be noisy

Don't take this for criticism, the link was interesting and might work well for someone in the southwest where I understand you to live, but here in my city, surrounded by other tightly packed houses with large shade trees solar looses much of its potential benefit. The shade trees help a lot with cooling in the summer, they are nice to look at, and if all else fails the seeds they produce would serve as a very short term emergency food supply They also block the sun pretty well except for short periods of the day in winter due to the low incident angle of the sun.

[Ludi]

I think there is much about our cities which is inherently unsustainable and needs to be changed gradually. There is quite a bit of literature about appropriate housing design, which does not need to involve widely spaced housing. Densely packed areas of highrises probably can't be maintained in the long run, however.

[Tanada]

I would love to live in a passive solar house on a south facing hillside, however my lot in the city is 35 feet by 65 feet. Not a lot of room to dump a hill of dirt and earth shelter a house.

You're lucky. I rent a tiny flat in town. Now, from the point of view of heating, tiny is good... unless you've got windows that are literally from the 19th century, leaving enough space to ventilate the flat even when you don't open the windows ever. I'd love to change these windows to better ones, but like I said, I rent. I would need a) permission from my landlady and b) be fairly certain that I'd live in here for long enough that it would compensate to change windows. Unfortunately, I have neither.

Of course, it's also completely impossible to get my own electricity by any means.

Been there, done that. Took me over a decade of living in crap apartments before I could afford to buy this house, all I can say is, look towards a better tomorrow, if you make a financial plan and fovrce yourself to live within it you will be able to upgrade in the future.

[Revi]

The nine questions you should ask about alternative energy for yourself are:

1) Can you do it at all? There are solar backpacks that charge a laptop.

2) Can you afford to do it? You can start small.

3) Do you know anything about it? The web has lots of info, but is it useful?

4) Who can help you? Lots of people know a lot about this stuff.

5) Does it make sense? Maybe you don't need to spend $20,000 to produce the same electricity you use now for $30 a month, but you can start to diversify your energy supply.

6) How do I start to do something? Get the Real Goods Catalog. Think.

7) Where do they sell this stuff? Lots on the internet, but hard to visualize things with information just on the net.

What is a certified solar installer? Lots around. Some will help you install yourself. It's a great way to do it!

9) If you have figured out all the other questions, Why not do something?

[Dezakin]

"Considering that solar panels typically have useful lives of 20 years or more, the electric energy recovery will range from 400% (in the case of a 5 year energy payback) to 2000% (in the case of a 1 year energy payback).

You can get much bigger energy payback by using solar concentrators with VMJ cells, as then you're only using 1/1000 the silicon, the optic surfaces being relatively low energy intense optics.

In economic terms, how long until a grid connection pays for itself?

In economic terms currently solar is a huge loser given all the other ways to produce power are far less expensive.

I expect solar will eventually be competitive. There are huge economic incentives to the engineers that make it so.

[chris-h]

1)does it produce electicity , fuel or heating ?
2)is it available today ?
3)how fast can it scale ?
4) is it acceptable from an enviromental view or is it a case of nimby
does it require a lot of land ? does it degrade the value of land near the point of generation ?
5)can you produce it everywhere ?
6) does it require a limited resourse ? like platinum for example ?
7) can it use our current infrastucture or does it require a new one ?
can it be produced locally ?
9) does the use of such a technology labels you as poor or phyco or as a fashion victim?
10) eroi
11) cost

[deconstructionist]

I think there is much about our cities which is inherently unsustainable and needs to be changed gradually. There is quite a bit of literature about appropriate housing design, which does not need to involve widely spaced housing. Densely packed areas of highrises probably can't be maintained in the long run, however.

My wife and I were looking into the new Forbes Park Lofts in Chelsea, MA. It's close to the city (though probably would have to take a bus to the train), is being developed with energy effeciency and sustainability in mind, and the building has a fleet of Smart Cars for the residents to share. They will start selling lofts in October of 2006 I believe...

an article about it
their web site (which isn't working right now)

[Revi]

Deconstructionist's idea sounds great! Those Forbes park lofts solve a multitude of problems that people have now. You can use a smart car whenever you want, so you don't have to own or maintain a vehicle, they re-use existing industrial space, so it isn't like living in some schlock condo. They are near everything that's happening and mass transit. What's not to like? This is the housing of the 21st century, not the last century. I am glad to hear that somebody gets it. Maybe they've been reading Kunstler!

[Speed]

After a short 150 years we now know fossil fuels cannot and will not continue to be the global energy standard. So we might as well ask a list of questions that could lead us to the energy choices for the future.

This is the beginning of the list:

1. Energy density (oil is densest)
2. Build cost/MW
3. Surface area/MW
4. Lifecycle costs
5. Total emissions (including heat)
6. Safety of operation (obviously nuclear is first here)
7. Number of energy conversions
8. Cost of energy infrastructure ($10 trillion replacement cost for current global fossil fuel system)
9. Overall energy conversion (roughly 30% for current fossil fuel system)

Maybe you can add to this list.

Speed

[grabby]

1000 donkeys working for an hour is about a megawatt hour
that is about one barrel of oil.

[Revi]

I figure that alternatives are cheap insurance. I have a job now, and am able to do some of this stuff. I may not have it for long if peak oil really starts to bite. Putting this solar stuff on my roof is a way of:
1) learning about how pv solar and solar thermal works

2) demonstrating that it can be done

3) defraying the cost of the half hour showers my teenager likes to take.

4) getting a really fun toy that I can rationalize to my wife on the grounds that it will save energy and money.

5) allaying some of my peak oil worries.

6) saving money. The cost of the systems is adding value to my house, and it is saving over 10% of it's cost per year, so it's better than money in the bank.

7) amaze and stupefy my friends

the cool factor. Be the first kid on your block to have solar hot water.

9) The savings in greenhouse gas producing fossil fuels makes you feel like you may actually be doing something about the problem of global warming.

Check out the website below under www. Click on the pics for more info. Come visit our house October 1st, it'll be on the solar tour!

[asdar]

Maybe number 9 covers this, but I'd add the question about how much start up costs are.

I think there's quite a few technologies that work that will have trouble getting started because nobody is willing to risk the money.

[Revi]

The start up costs are eaten up by whatever you save over the following years. You can take out a home improvement loan and pay it back with savings in future years. We cleaned out our savings to do what we've done, but that's money we would have handed to the energy providers later otherwise. Check under www below for our energy saving projects. The best alternative energy project is efficiency and conservation. The biggest payback is insulating and caulking.

[LionKuntz]

This is circular. I answered this on my BBS,
http://BBS.h2-pv.us
then I post a copy answering the questions here where it started.

Answers to the Nine Critical Questions About H2-PV

Copied from PeakOil Forum:
http://www.peakoil.com/fortopic8127.html

... which references this website:
http://www.fromthewilderness.com/free/w ... tions.html


Nine Critical Questions to Ask About Alternative Energy

1. How Much Energy is Returned for the Energy Invested (EROEI)?
2. Have the claims been verified by an independent third party?
3. Can I see the alternative energy being used?
4. Can you trace it back to the original energy source?
5. Does the invention defy the Laws of Thermodynamics?
6. Does the inventor make extravagant claims?
7. Does the inventor claim zero pollution?
8. Can I see blueprints, schematics or a chemical analysis of how it works?
9. Infrastructure Requirements -- Does the energy source require a corporation to produce it? How will it be transported and used? Will it require new engines, pipelines, and filling stations? What will these cost? Who will pay for them and with what? How long will it take to build them?

How Does H2-PV, taken as a whole answer these questions?

1: Each acre of PV cell surfaces @ 13% efficiency generates 12/watts per square foot, 43,560 square feet per acre, (12 x 43560 = 522,720) 522 kWh per peak sunny hour. In vast swaths of 8 sunny southwest USA sunbelt states there are a daily average of 6 peak hours per day (more in long summer days, less in short winter or stormy days). That is DC output measured at the panel power taps. Subtract about 10% for inversion to AC, comes to 470 kWh/hr. Crystallization energy to operate an EMC furnace comes to 12 kWh/kg Si. 470/12 = 39 kilograms of PV SI crystallized per sunny hour. Each kilogram of Si crystal produces 1.2 meters squared (m^2) of PV cell surfaces after sawdust losses in slicing and nominal breakage in process by current industry standards. 46.8 m^2 of net crystal waferstocks are produced each peak sunny hour by one EMC furnace. It requires 86.5 sunny hours to crystallize one acre of PV cell surfaces. The energy payback of crystallization is 14 days of 6-hours per day peak sunny hours. The Si crystal stock represents 30% of the total costs of PV panels, and has a global value in the Si crystal ingot market -- it can be traded for everything else needed. Unless you believe in "energy fairies" giving free energy anyplace in the product chain, then the same cost of energy is embedded in every product or service bought to produce the final panels. Multiplying the energy of crystallization by 3.33 to determine the whole costs of energy including human energy and financial energy, comes to 47 days for 100% total energy payback time to create one acre of PV from one acre PV breeder operation.

The math doesn't lie, but people do for a lot of various reasons. Trust the math and distrust the people who say different.

2: Si made by the EMC process is the largest segment of the PV market by far. It has 20 years proven demonstrations and PV panels made with it have warranties up to 25 years long.

3: You can see samples working everywhere. Chances are you own a small or larger PV solar cell gadget of some kind. Battery operated lawn lights recharged by PV are cheap and commonplace.

4: You can trace back to Einsteins Nobel Prize, or trace to the sun. The USA PV Patent is # 4572812, and you can look it up in the US Patent and Trademark Office website by that number. It is expired, open-source, public-domain technology invented at US taxpayer expense and you own it -- no royalties to pay anybody.

5: The invention is completely within known thermodynamics. It has been proven first by 20 successful years application to casting aluminum and other metals, followed by another successful 20 years adapted to making PV crystal ingots.

6: The claims made are well substantiated -- they may seem extravagant to people whom have been deceived by competitor's propaganda badmouthing Solar PV.

7: There is zero pollution in using the PV for it's lifespan. There may be some waste disposal issues at end-of-life which are minor. The purification of SiO2 to Si for making the crystals are many different technologies, some are much more polluting than others, but none are as polluting as mainstream energy choices. Very low pollution-emission SiO2 purification technologies are open-source public domain and free for everybody to use.

8: All the required instructions are archived in the USPTO website and freely available to every person in the world with an internet connection.

9: State of the Art EMC furnaces are probably beyond the means of small-to-medium sized businesses. More modest furnaces can be built in machine shops in any town or city of the USA, usually without needing out-of-state parts. More than one furnace can be under one roof, and in fact, that is the normal situation. A small to medium sized business can begin with one furnace and scale up. Raw materials purification to solar-grade Si are also public domain open-sourced royalty-free in the USPTO. One acre of PV cell surfaces is 4047 m^2, produced by 3369 kilograms of Si crystal. The density of Si crystal is 2.33 grams/cc, thus there are 52 cubic feet of Si crystal required to make one acre of PV cell surfaces (including normal wastes in production). 2 cubic yards of Si crystals can be made from no more than 7 cubic yards of sand input materials, costing $200 delivered by the local concrete plant or landscaper supply. None of the materials are strategically scarce or vulnerable to choke-points by cartels manipulating the marketplace. The sands are acid-processed in polypropylene 55 gallon barrels commonly available used steam-cleaned at cheap prices. Some safety equipment and a few other items and a business is ready to turn $200 of sand into 43,560 square feet of waferstocks.

H2-PV using the EMC furnaces is a licence to print money. Each square foot of PV wafer the thickness of a business card at $1/watt is a $12 bill spendable over most of the planet.

A whole integrated PV plant today costs roughly $2 million to build, and takes 2 years from groundbreaking to having salable products. Five friends can put a 2nd mortgage on their houses and be in the business. That's BEFORE the EMC open-source method of making Model-T EMC furnaces. The H2-PV project is to assemble all the necessary technologies of open-source public domain "good enough" processes, methods and machines so as to guarantee that 60,000 entrepreneurs can rapidly begin each making a square mile of PV to supply all the energy required by America from sunlight alone within ten years time. Since everything will be open, public and royalty-free there are no entry barriers other than sufficient gumption and business sense.

[smiley]

I think there should be a tenth critical question

10) Does the energy source deliver energy at the time that this is needed? If not does the energy source allow storage of the energy until useage, and if so what are the energy losses that are associated with this storage.

If you take solar as an example:

Solar energy is nice, but solar panels have a output which depends on the availability of sunlight. When the sky is overcast they produce less, when it is night they produce nothing, In winter they produce less than in summer due to the angle of the sun.

There are two systems available. One which physically stores the energy in batteries. However in this case the storage losses have to be acounted for.

A second system is one where your house ditches excess energy on the net and draws from the net when there is not enough light. When too many people start using these systems, the network becomes unstable. A period of sun will cause a power surge trough the network and cause it to shut down.

[Revi]

Then there's solar hot water that stores hot water for your use. It's been 20 below, farinheit here at night, but our water was heated to almost 100 degrees today. Our little PV solar backup light system is charged up and ready to go. Any time the sun shines we get something. It's bonus energy. Otherwise we'd be using fossil fuels or electricity for the same services. Anyone who doesn't have solar working for them is missing out. The big question is why isn't everyone doing it? We could save millions of gallons of fuel if everyone had a solar water heater. We could live better lives on less energy. Here's a link to what we've done:

http://www.msad54.org/sahs/appliedarts/ ... /index.htm

[LionKuntz]

I think there should be a tenth critical question

10) Does the energy source deliver energy at the time that this is needed? If not does the energy source allow storage of the energy until useage, and if so what are the energy losses that are associated with this storage.

If you take solar as an example:

Solar energy is nice, but solar panels have a output which depends on the availability of sunlight. When the sky is overcast they produce less, when it is night they produce nothing, In winter they produce less than in summer due to the angle of the sun.

BY DEFINITION SOLAR IS DAYLIGHT ONLY!!! It so happens the human species is diurnal and spends most of it's active hours during daylight. The factory, shops, schools, and two or three daily meals are done during daylight, so that is when power consumption peaks. If you solve peak-hours consumption, then the job remaining is a lot easier solving whatever small fraction is left over.

There are two systems available.

No there isn't. There are dozens, scores. If you are going to be a nitpicker, then you should pick your own nits too.

Even TODAY with coal power, there is pumped water storage to use baseload power efficiently.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pumped-sto ... lectricity

This is just the list from that link of the USA pumped water reservoirs used and their stored energy capacity:
United States

* Blenheim-Gilboa, NY (1973), 1,200 MW
* Castaic Dam, CA (1978), 1,566 MW
* Clarence Cannon dam, MO (1983), 58 MW
* Edward C Hyatt, CA (1968), 780 MW
* Gianelli, (San Luis Dam & Pyramid Lake) CA (1968), 400 MW
* Grand Coulee Dam, WA (1981), 314 MW [10]
* Helms, CA (1984), 1,200 MW
* Iowa Hill, CA (Proposed 2010), 400 MW [11]
* John S. Eastwood, CA (1988), 200 MW
* Ludington, MI (1973), 1,872 MW
* Mount Elbert, 200 MW, 1,212 MW
* Mt. Hope, 2,000 MW
* Muddy Run Pumped Storage Facility, Drumore, PA, 1,071 MW
* Northfield Mountain, MA (1972), 1,080 MW
* Bear Swamp, MA (1972), 600 MW
* Raccoon Mountain Pumped-Storage Plant, TN (1978), 1,530 MW
* Robert Moses Hydro-Electric Dam (Niagara), NY (1961), 2,880 MW
* Rocky River, CT (1929), 31 MW
* Seneca Power Plant, PA 435 MW
* Summit Pumped Water Plant, 1500 MW
* Taum Sauk, MO, pure pump-back 450 MW (destroyed due to negligent pumping over the upper reservoir wall, see link)
* Bath County, VA, 2100 MW
* Rocky Mountain Pumped Storage Station, GA, 848 MW

You didn't mention compressed air, or hydrogen electrolysis, flywheels, super-capacitors, reversible chemical-reactions (such as un-rusting iron or un-oxidizing aluminum). Solar THERMAL is presently stored in molten salts that fire boilers through the night in California deserts and are neither batteries NOR grid-tie banking energy credits. You didn't mention that surplus daylight power can be used to make CHEAPER BATTERIES or sequester carbon-dioxide from dirty power plants.

The number of single detached homes is 75 million out of 105 million total housing units. The rooftops are average 2000 square feet on those detached homes and the daily sunshine averaged across America is 5.5 hours peak daily, year around, including counting all the cloudy stormy days. Dirt Cheap PV that makes 12 watts per square foot would power the entire country 100% off those single detached home rooftops -- EVERYTHING, including hospitals, schools, military, streetlight, malls and FACTORIES MAKING MORE PV.

It's time to end the arguments that are TALKING US TO DEATH, and move on reducing the costs of PV down to 2.5 cents a watt in ten years.

Beer cans and beer bottles are made of the same stuff that PV is made from. Stop goofing off and learn how PV is made so it can be made for the same price as beer cans and beer bottles when it's made in the same volumes as beer cans and beer bottles. It's not rocket science -- it's 60 year-old technology, grandfathers made PV and it's in the museums already.

[MonteQuest]

Let's save the personal attacks and flames for the Hall of Flames.

Read our Code of Conduct.

[Revi]

Solar energy is scalable. Nobody imagined that rock oil, or petroleum would be powering the world back in the 1800's. It will take a leap of imagination to see a solar powered world, but it is possible. It may not support as many of us, but it will make life a heck of a lot better for a lot of people who have it. I'd rather be taking hot showers and reading with pv light than sitting in the dark stinking.