Nine Critical Questions to Ask About Alternative Energy

[Curmudgicus]

Original:
1. How Much Energy is Returned for the Energy Invested (EROEI)?
2. Have the claims been verified by an independent third party?
3. Can I see the alternative energy being used?
4. Can you trace it back to the original energy source?
5. Does the invention defy the Laws of Thermodynamics?
6. Does the inventor make extravagant claims?
7. Does the inventor claim zero pollution?
8. Can I see blueprints, schematics or a chemical analysis of how it works?
9. Infrastructure Requirements -- Does the energy source require a corporation to produce it? How will it be transported and used? Will it require new engines, pipelines, and filling stations? What will these cost? Who will pay for them and with what? How long will it take to build them?

Amen to the kudos to MonteQuest.

I think that the nine points are not all equal, but in fact naturally divide into greater and lesser categories. I see 1, 2, and 9 as the "Big Three," whereas points 3-8 more properly fall under the third party verification.

I also believe that accurate EROEI numbers are much tougher to obtain than most posters seem to think, which is partially illustrated by point 9. The intial investment in an extensive infrastructure skews the EROEI to a low value, which gradually increases over time. Several EROEI numbers based on different levels of scale and different points in time might be needed.

[gnm]

I second that... 1,2 and 9. A lot of the costs of alternatives can be hidden in number 9. There are I think a few examples where the alternative is being used to produce the product. Kyocera runs a plant producing PV's on its own PV's. But what about thier suppliers I wonder? For instance they are not running the aluminum smelter which produces the stock for the frames. Or the mining thereof.

-G

[Revi]

I am sitting in front of a hydroelectric powered computer. I just took a shower with water heated by the sun. The woodstove is burning wood I cut off our woodlot, heating the house. Our PV system is running the radio. What's the problem? I even have an electric bicycle that gets me up hills, no sweat. What's the matter with alternative energy? The problem is that most people are too lazy to figure it out. Every house in America could be like ours. Most of us are just in a petrochemical stupor and haven't figured out how to quit using so much of it. We better learn how to wean ourselves from it. Soon.

[Curmudgicus]

I am sitting in front of a hydroelectric powered computer. I just took a shower with water heated by the sun. The woodstove is burning wood I cut off our woodlot, heating the house. Our PV system is running the radio. What's the problem? I even have an electric bicycle that gets me up hills, no sweat. What's the matter with alternative energy? The problem is that most people are too lazy to figure it out. Every house in America could be like ours. Most of us are just in a petrochemical stupor and haven't figured out how to quit using so much of it. We better learn how to wean ourselves from it. Soon.

Good for you. Since you have gotten to a place that many of us aspire to reach, maybe you can provide some pointers on how you got there. You obviously have some valuable knowledge to pass on. I am particularly interested in your hydro-electric system.

We definitely need to have public perception changed about "alternative technologies." I have had Homeowner Association troubles with attempts to install a geothermal HVAC retrofit or to put PVs anywhere visible on the property.

[Revi]

The hydroelectric comes from the dam which is about 200 yards from my house and is maintained by FPL energy (formerly Central Maine Power). Our valley down to Augusta is powered by hydro according to a friend who works for them. That's why I said the computer is hydro powered. We're on the grid. We buy green power. The solar hot water could work anywhere it is allowed. Homeowners associations not allowing solar panels makes it all impossible. PV and hot water systems have cost us around $8000 which is a bit of money for us. It's sunny today, so it's paying off. I thought I would experience buyer's remorse, but it's one of the best things we've done so far.

[pstarr]

Regarding point nine. Infrastructure is very much a part of eroei and must be accounted for in calculations. This is why most economic/energy accounting discussions of alternative energies have become bogged down here. Pimentel has attemped to measure the cost of fermentation equipment in his papers on ethanol and is regulary derided on peak oil. The problem as I see it is that these lifecycle analyses are infinitely complex and besides, none have really been done on petroleum yet-so how can we even compare.

pete

[Revi]

The case for the status quo is better than the case for alternatives assuming the world stays the same and you can keep buying electricity at the same price, and the dollar doesn't tank. If either of these happens it makes sense to put solar on your house now. Your dollar is still worth a little. Anything you do now cuts your bills in the future when the dollar may be worth less. The problem is financing. It should be as easy to buy a solar hot water system as it is to finance a hot tub. It'll become easier. It has to.

[Bandage]

If we put the Energizer Bunny in a hamster wheel and connect the hub to a shaft and gear system, we may be able to operate an electrical generator indefinitely.

[lonewolf]

redacted

[Mesuge]

Lonewolf, good point! The issue with renewables is that you have to service them regularly or at least care for them it's a different philosophy from the 'grid & switch 24/7' mentality..

- For instance for diy wind turbine is necessary to have some spare parts mainly from the mechanical department.. On the other hand wooden blades are recyclable and steel rod, rotors/stators/magnets etc. are durable items if made properly.. You can build yourself a diy wooden and durable windmills 500-3kW. There's a great step by step book and community around it on the web..

- In terms of solar I'd be worried about frost snowfall in storm and other element impacts. But generally, the output longevity should be much more than the 25yrs guranteed by manuf.. Another issue is the lead acid battery bank which might not be replaced easily in 15 yrs. if the situation gets bad.. If you have the money there are solutions to go off grid with vanadium fuel cell battery storage with cca +15.000 deep discharges (human life). 5kW system goes for $14k and is scalable up by increasing positive and negative ions storage tanks..

- Check out the solar cookers stuff. I didn't believe it first but gave it a try this past summer and it's fantastic for preserving fruits for winter, baking bread and meat, spagheti, pasteurizing water etc.. And get a big one if you live in the North, winter sun provides less photon juice for cooking..

- Hydro is cool, there are nowadays smart microhydro plants based on application of new hydrodynamic science which give you a lot of kWhs for a few grants even in a small creek.

Generally, one have to evaluate the best renewable for its particular location. The less tech involved the higher probability it will last longer with less maintanance..

Anoter important thing is that distributed renewables might force people to get back in sync with the nature cycle. For instance you can use peak power only when the sun shines or the wind blows or the creek is not dry.. This renders the contemporary work day of commuting and slaving inside cubicle quite unrealistic to continue.. In the world of renewables you telework (if internet/LAN is still around), delay major energy suckers for peak power window which date is not certain etc.. Back to nature..

My worry is that if the SHTF these true low tech miracle gadgets get stolen/damaged quite fast by the white/blue collar zombies invading villages..

[Curmudgicus]

A book you might want to look at is "How Buildings Learn" by Stewart Brand.

Different systems in a building age at different rates and require updating or replacement at different intervals. If you go for a solar panel system with Outback controllers, do it in the full knowledge that this technology is going to make giant strides in the near future and will require updating. Don't install it in such a way that you can't get at it and work on it easily.

High tech has its place. So does "brute force." If you build a building with a lot of mass that is thermally coupled to the earth ten to fifteen feet below grade and that is well insulated, any energy load that a high tech system is going to have to meet is reduced to a level that can be met. The key factor first and foremost is REDUCE THE LOAD. If you do that the options multiply.

[Revi]

The key factor first and foremost is REDUCE THE LOAD. If you do that the options multiply. Curmudgicus

I agree! If we all used 1/4 of what we're using now, lived in passive solar houses dug into south facing hillsides, used led lights powered by solar, washed with solar heated water and heated with less than 1/2 cord of wood we could live sustainably around here. We might even have enough extra so that we could take our electric vehicle for a spin.

We're not quite at that level yet, but we could be pretty soon. It all exists now. Why not? Reality is agreed perception. We're suffering from an imagination shortage as much as an energy shortage.

[SolarDave]

The key factor first and foremost is REDUCE THE LOAD. If you do that the options multiply. Curmudgicus

I agree! If we all used 1/4 of what we're using now, lived in passive solar houses dug into south facing hillsides, used led lights powered by solar, washed with solar heated water and heated with less than 1/2 cord of wood we could live sustainably around here. We might even have enough extra so that we could take our electric vehicle for a spin.

We're not quite at that level yet, but we could be pretty soon. It all exists now. Why not? Reality is agreed perception. We're suffering from an imagination shortage as much as an energy shortage.

I completely agree that the things you list above are available today. It's all a matter of choice.

People who choose conventional energy lifestyles are driving the production and consumption of more conventional energy.

People who choose alternative energy lifestyles are driving alternative sources and uses of energy.

For example, if people were not on waiting lists for months to buy hybrid cars, there would be fewer hybrid models next year, not more.

I think it's all very simple. Every item you buy or don't buy, every watt-hour you use or don't use, every child you have or don't have, is going to make a difference.

Buy the things that create the future you want, and don't buy the things that create the future you don't want.

If supply and demand applies to conventional energy, it applies equally well to alternatives.

"There is no fate but that which we create." - A ficticious Linda Hamilton on her way to stop the Engineers from developing the Technology that would Exterminate Mankind.

[Tanada]

The key factor first and foremost is REDUCE THE LOAD. If you do that the options multiply. Curmudgicus

I agree! If we all used 1/4 of what we're using now, lived in passive solar houses dug into south facing hillsides, used led lights powered by solar, washed with solar heated water and heated with less than 1/2 cord of wood we could live sustainably around here. We might even have enough extra so that we could take our electric vehicle for a spin.

We're not quite at that level yet, but we could be pretty soon. It all exists now. Why not? Reality is agreed perception. We're suffering from an imagination shortage as much as an energy shortage.

I would love to live in a passive solar house on a south facing hillside, however my lot in the city is 35 feet by 65 feet. Not a lot of room to dump a hill of dirt and earth shelter a house. BTW the 35 is east to west and the 65 is north/south, if you care. So I had to choose, live in the city and have a very short commute to work, or buy a substantial country lot to build a passive solar house and have a longer commute to work. Most peopel on here agree suburban sprawl is a bad thing, now imagine the suburbs where every house is an earth shelter passive solar house and think how far apart those houses have to be for the solar energy to be a net gain. You are talking about effectivly quitupling or more the size of those suburban lots, taking up five times more sprawl space in the process and leangthening commutes by a substantial margin.

You want solar electricity? Thats fine, how long does it take for them to pay off in terms of energy produced vs energy required to build them, and in economic terms how long till they pay for themselves?

A windmill you say? Great, I love windmills. The city won't let me have one, too much RF interference, too ugly, too loud......besides which my neighbors would also pitch a fit cause I live in the city with a short commute.

[Ludi]

You want solar electricity? Thats fine, how long does it take for them to pay off in terms of energy produced vs energy required to build them, and in economic terms how long till they pay for themselves?

"Considering that solar panels typically have useful lives of 20 years or more, the electric energy recovery will range from 400% (in the case of a 5 year energy payback) to 2000% (in the case of a 1 year energy payback).

These figures demonstrate that a barrel of oil [equivalent] invested in making solar panels can effectively generate sufficient electricity to recover the investment of that barrel of oil with 4 barrels of oil [equivalent] as a minimum and up to 20 barrels of oil in the optimistic scenario. This is like investing in a savings account at an interest rate ranging from 20% to 100%. At the low end, this is a healthy return on investment!"

http://www.ecotopia.com/apollo2/pvlever.htm

In economic terms, how long until a grid connection pays for itself?

[Doly]

I would love to live in a passive solar house on a south facing hillside, however my lot in the city is 35 feet by 65 feet. Not a lot of room to dump a hill of dirt and earth shelter a house.

You're lucky. I rent a tiny flat in town. Now, from the point of view of heating, tiny is good... unless you've got windows that are literally from the 19th century, leaving enough space to ventilate the flat even when you don't open the windows ever. I'd love to change these windows to better ones, but like I said, I rent. I would need a) permission from my landlady and b) be fairly certain that I'd live in here for long enough that it would compensate to change windows. Unfortunately, I have neither.

Of course, it's also completely impossible to get my own electricity by any means.

[Tanada]

You want solar electricity? Thats fine, how long does it take for them to pay off in terms of energy produced vs energy required to build them, and in economic terms how long till they pay for themselves?

"Considering that solar panels typically have useful lives of 20 years or more, the electric energy recovery will range from 400% (in the case of a 5 year energy payback) to 2000% (in the case of a 1 year energy payback).

These figures demonstrate that a barrel of oil [equivalent] invested in making solar panels can effectively generate sufficient electricity to recover the investment of that barrel of oil with 4 barrels of oil [equivalent] as a minimum and up to 20 barrels of oil in the optimistic scenario. This is like investing in a savings account at an interest rate ranging from 20% to 100%. At the low end, this is a healthy return on investment!"

http://www.ecotopia.com/apollo2/pvlever.htm

In economic terms, how long until a grid connection pays for itself?

Because i live in the city I would need a tower some 30 feet tall to hold my panals up out of the shadow of the surrounding buildings. I doubt I could get permission from the city for that any more than I could for the windmill, but at least it wouldn't be noisy

Don't take this for criticism, the link was interesting and might work well for someone in the southwest where I understand you to live, but here in my city, surrounded by other tightly packed houses with large shade trees solar looses much of its potential benefit. The shade trees help a lot with cooling in the summer, they are nice to look at, and if all else fails the seeds they produce would serve as a very short term emergency food supply They also block the sun pretty well except for short periods of the day in winter due to the low incident angle of the sun.

[Ludi]

I think there is much about our cities which is inherently unsustainable and needs to be changed gradually. There is quite a bit of literature about appropriate housing design, which does not need to involve widely spaced housing. Densely packed areas of highrises probably can't be maintained in the long run, however.

[Tanada]

I would love to live in a passive solar house on a south facing hillside, however my lot in the city is 35 feet by 65 feet. Not a lot of room to dump a hill of dirt and earth shelter a house.

You're lucky. I rent a tiny flat in town. Now, from the point of view of heating, tiny is good... unless you've got windows that are literally from the 19th century, leaving enough space to ventilate the flat even when you don't open the windows ever. I'd love to change these windows to better ones, but like I said, I rent. I would need a) permission from my landlady and b) be fairly certain that I'd live in here for long enough that it would compensate to change windows. Unfortunately, I have neither.

Of course, it's also completely impossible to get my own electricity by any means.

Been there, done that. Took me over a decade of living in crap apartments before I could afford to buy this house, all I can say is, look towards a better tomorrow, if you make a financial plan and fovrce yourself to live within it you will be able to upgrade in the future.

[Revi]

The nine questions you should ask about alternative energy for yourself are:

1) Can you do it at all? There are solar backpacks that charge a laptop.

2) Can you afford to do it? You can start small.

3) Do you know anything about it? The web has lots of info, but is it useful?

4) Who can help you? Lots of people know a lot about this stuff.

5) Does it make sense? Maybe you don't need to spend $20,000 to produce the same electricity you use now for $30 a month, but you can start to diversify your energy supply.

6) How do I start to do something? Get the Real Goods Catalog. Think.

7) Where do they sell this stuff? Lots on the internet, but hard to visualize things with information just on the net.

What is a certified solar installer? Lots around. Some will help you install yourself. It's a great way to do it!

9) If you have figured out all the other questions, Why not do something?