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Need to rant about Canadian hydroelectric sources!!

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Re: Need to rant about hydroelectric sources!!

Unread postby Macsporan » Sat 10 Sep 2005, 08:29:46

The State shall pay in the common interest, financed by heavy taxation on the wealthy.

Are these failings the fault of the dams, or perhaps the result of lack of follow-up investment?
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Re: Need to rant about hydroelectric sources!!

Unread postby Ludi » Sat 10 Sep 2005, 08:35:55

Macsporan wrote:The State shall pay in the common interest, financed by heavy taxation on the wealthy.

Are these failings the fault of the dams, or perhaps the result of lack of follow-up investment?


To me it looks like a failing to take into account the actual effect of the dam under real-world conditions.

Smaller dams make much more sense environmentally, and can still be used for hydroelectric generation, though on a more local scale.

A good discussion of dams on the local scale is Yeoman's classic book "Water for Every Farm." If you're interested in this topic, I recommend it.
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Re: Need to rant about hydroelectric sources!!

Unread postby Macsporan » Sat 10 Sep 2005, 08:48:25

I think smaller dams would be good too.

Anything to large tends to suffer from apoplexy at the centre and anemia in the extremities.
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Re: Need to rant about hydroelectric sources!!

Unread postby oiless » Sat 10 Sep 2005, 17:41:32

Quoting myself from another topic:

Not really part of anything, but when they filled Williston Lake during the early '70's it screwed up the weather for years. I expect it permanently changed it, however I didn't have the experience of the weather beforehand to compare to. I do remember the "oldtimers" discussing it though. From my own memory I do remember the winter of 1971. Moose everywhere in the Omenica Valley, bellying through five or six feet of snow, starving. The lowland willow flats of the Peace river were the moose' winter forage, they came down from the higher valleys of the upper Peace river, Omenica, Osilika, Ingenika, and Prophet Rivers, as well as other smaller rivers, to winter. When the resevoir flooded they lost that habitat in a season. I would guess that tens of thousands died, I was informed by a ministry of the enviroment biologist a few years back, long after the fact, that it was "only a handful of animals". That defies the evidence of my own eyes. Green power at work. For every action, a reaction.


Large hydro projects are often disasterous in their consequences. Fisheries are often wiped out for instance.
The Bennett dam enabled a local bottom feeding fish (local name "squaw fish") to migrate into river systems which it had not inhabited before. This decreased stocks of rainbow trout and other sport fish in those rivers, due to egg bed depredation. Arctic Graying are now red listed in the Williston Lake watersheds, far cry from when I was a kid. There were times when the rivers were absolutely thick with them, you couldn't look at the water without seeing grayling, if you tossed out a line with a dry fly on it grayling would fight over it.
Over fishing is also a concern, as the area is made much more accessible by the lake than it was before.

Where some see a few furry animals losing their homes, I see (from personal experience) vast enviromental impacts, whole ecosytems destroyed, river deltas eroded away, polluted water, destruction of the very things we will need one day, when we can no longer wander about pretending we are gods above nature, and have to live within our means.



Short overview of dam effects.
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Re: Need to rant about hydroelectric sources!!

Unread postby richardmmm » Sat 10 Sep 2005, 18:35:49

Macsporan wrote:Yes, nostalgia isn't what it used to be.

Do all lakes emit methene or is this curse restricted to dams?

Pardon my scepticism but I think that the greenhouse gas damage of dam, even given that its methane not CO2, is going to be trifling compared to a coal, gas or oil plant.

As for damage to the environment hydro and nuclear aren't even on the same planet.

Build more dams, I say.

Build more of them.




I believe that methane as a greenhouse gas is far worse then CO2. It traps heat much more effectively. Of course all bodies of fresh water are subject to rotting matter at the bottom, but creating large artifical ones is not necessarily intelligent.
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Re: Need to rant about hydroelectric sources!!

Unread postby redfire » Sun 11 Sep 2005, 09:59:14

With today's technology do you have to dam a river to produce hydro power? I remember seeing a show on how small veriable pitch turbine generators could be installed in a river and you could not tell they where there. What if 10,000 of these type of generators were linked together?

Most hydro projects look they were designed with 1920's technology with massive dams and turbines.

Something to think about, every car has an alternator in it producing electricity and there are millions of car's out there. Why can't there be millions of small hydro generators feeding the grid?
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Re: Need to rant about hydroelectric sources!!

Unread postby cube » Sun 11 Sep 2005, 18:51:53

redfire wrote:With today's technology do you have to dam a river to produce hydro power? I remember seeing a show on how small veriable pitch turbine generators could be installed in a river and you could not tell they where there. What if 10,000 of these type of generators were linked together?
...........
Nope it wouldn't work. A couple of fish would get wacked across the head by one of these 10,000 "veriable pitch turbines" and before you know it the greenies would have you marked for death for even coming up with the idea. Maybe if you put foam padding on the turbine blades to protect the fish you'll get the greenies approval. :roll:
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Re: Need to rant about hydroelectric sources!!

Unread postby aahala » Wed 14 Sep 2005, 13:24:44

If it's true hydro produces a lot of methane, we ought to suck it up,
add a little this, a little that and viola, natural gas.
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Re: Need to rant about hydroelectric sources!!

Unread postby SHiFTY » Wed 14 Sep 2005, 15:29:10

Now I found out that, even though Europeans have only been in NZ since 1840 they still found time to build a village and then decide to drown it.

Some place in the South Island, it was on TV on a program showing how much rail had been ripped up in NZ, I didn't know we had much to start with.


The coolest hydro power schem in NZ is the Manapouri- Carved into a cavern inside a mountain, the water falls vertically 25m from the lake through the turbines then 10km along tunnels out to the sea.

I have been to the turbine hall, its like being in Dr. No :)

NZ generates 60-80% of its power from hydro power, unfortunately its mostly away from the population centres.
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Re: Need to rant about hydroelectric sources!!

Unread postby Ludi » Wed 14 Sep 2005, 16:04:35

redfire wrote:With today's technology do you have to dam a river to produce hydro power? I remember seeing a show on how small veriable pitch turbine generators could be installed in a river and you could not tell they where there.


Yep, there are some neat little turbines out there. But decentralized energy production is very unpopular, you might have noticed.
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Re: Need to rant about Canadian hydroelectric sources!!

Unread postby Tanada » Wed 14 Mar 2018, 09:46:11

Nearly eight weeks after Massachusetts regulators chose Northern Pass Transmission as its preferred power line to carry Canadian hydropower to Bay State utilities, the project remains in limbo.

On Monday the New Hampshire Site Evaluation Committee, which blocked the project on Feb. 1, declined to issue an immediate decision on an appeal by Eversource Energy. The committee said it would suspend its decision on a rehearing until it issues a written order on its initial rejection, a document due March 31.

The problem for Eversource is that Massachusetts officials gave the project until March 27 to show progress in New Hampshire, or the transmission contract could go to Central Maine Power, which plans its own transmission line from the Canadian border.

If the committee won't reconsider, Eversource could appeal Northern Pass to the New Hampshire Supreme Court. However, that could introduce another year of delay, with no guarantee of victory.

Three Massachusetts utilities, in concert with Gov. Charlie Baker's Department of Energy Resources, last year solicited competitive bids for 9.45 gigawatt-hours of major clean energy imports. The committee in January chose Northern Pass and Hydro-Quebec for the lucrative contracts, rejecting four other transmission partnerships and dozens of renewable energy projects.

Eversource at the time said it was two years ahead of its competitors in terms of permitting. Eversource has all federal and international permits lined up, but still needs the New Hampshire permit to move forward. Northern Pass had proposed to go into service by the end of 2020.

Eversource on Monday said it understands New Hampshire's decision to suspend its decision pending a written order, and that its hopes the site evaluation committee "will evaluate the required statutory criteria, as well as thoroughly consider all of the conditions that could provide the basis for granting approval."

Gov. Charlie Baker's 2016 Energy Diversity Act calls for competitive purchases of 9.45 gigawatt-hours of clean energy by 2020, as well as a separate offshore wind procurement. The Massachusetts Clean Energy RFP was launched to implement that law.

The Northern Pass, first proposed in 2010, has drawn protests from host communities and New Hampshire residents. It has been fought by groups such as the Conservation Law Foundation, which said other New England transmission proposals would be less harmful to the environment.

The Eversource line would go from the Canadian border to a substation at Deerfield, New Hampshire, where it would tie into the six-state bulk power grid. The line would be buried as it passes through the White Mountains.

Attorney General Maura Healey said in January she will scrutinize the Baker administration's choice of Northern Pass in the Massachusetts Clean Energy RFP.

"Our role is to ensure that this bid was selected based on a transparent, competitive and fair evaluation of all the proposals submitted," a Healey spokeswoman said.


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Re: Need to rant about Canadian hydroelectric sources!!

Unread postby diemos » Wed 14 Mar 2018, 10:36:53

Just New Hampshire trying to extort more money for the right of way for the transmission line.

Politics as usual.
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