[PEAKINT]

Hi folks. I was originally on here back in 2006 when Specops was still spamming the forums. Back in early 2006 I was at work and bored and surfed the Google looking for population overshoot issues and stumbled upon LATOC. Those were the Rubbert/FTW, Matt Savinar (lawyer turned soothsayer turned cuckoo psychic), and Krunstker (or whatever his name is called) rants days...

Back then I was about 24, now I'm closer to 30.

Had I known what I knew back then, how things would have turned out, I would have not hesitated to ride the gravy train and knowingly pretend that "the party was still going good"... because though Matt swear that he swore off riding in a car again ever since 2004, my question is why?

10^100000^10000000 years from now all will pass, everything will be gone and nothing will exists
10^100 years from now our local universe will die a cold heat death
100 trillion years from now all stars will be dead, the stellariferious era will be over, there will be no light in the universe
1 billion years from now our sun will start to red giant, life on earth will be over

20 years from now I'll be 50 and old and NONE of the above aforementioned will ever have mattered.

As long as society can more or less hold together for another 10 or 20 years, why do I care?

It is not, as they say, a subjective individual personal, "difference that makes a difference".

For people who get in a fatal car accident that is their TEOTWAWKI (and peak oil for them? please....)

The point is, we forget about the fact that Peak Oil, while a mathematical certainty, does not triumph our own peaks first if we cannot get ahead of the shockwaves for it to even really matter...

Case in point Simmons that died in a bathtub preaching Peak Oil End of the World when they could have spent that money on hookers on a tropical island..

As for me, Peak oil or not I've learned that what is important is to live life by frontloading it and doing all I want to do while I still can.

Prep I will not.

[Islander]

I think you have described my mentality quite well as I am 27 and reckon society will hold together in some form or other until I'm in my 40's or 50's. I found the best way to deal with Peak Oil is to accept that one day the economy will go into decline and as it does, I will just roll with the punches as it were and make the best of whatever life I have. If I die before I'm an old man, so be it, I've accepted that one day I will die and that thought doesn't scare me like it used to.

In terms of prepping, I've been making sure I get into better shape incase the future requires lots of manual labor, but that's all I've been doing.

[PEAKINT]

I think you have described my mentality quite well as I am 27 and reckon society will hold together in some form or other until I'm in my 40's or 50's. I found the best way to deal with Peak Oil is to accept that one day the economy will go into decline and as it does, I will just roll with the punches as it were and make the best of whatever life I have. If I die before I'm an old man, so be it, I've accepted that one day I will die and that thought doesn't scare me like it used to.

In terms of prepping, I've been making sure I get into better shape incase the future requires lots of manual labor, but that's all I've been doing.

This is why I'm spending every penny I make and not saving a penny for "retirement" in CD/ IRA/401k/ mutual fund, index fund, etc etc

Because it WON"T be there anyway! All the suckers that fall into it....

Time value of money in a globally shrinking world? Negative. Best strategy is to spend while young while dollar still has relative value and one is in good health to ENJOY the experience.

We are get old and die one day anyway. (in the very LONG RUN everything is dead, we shouldn't be thinking long term, just "while the going is still good" term) I'm not doing it worrying about age, lost of manhood, lost of retirement, disease, peak oil, etc

[Ibon]

This is why I'm spending every penny I make and not saving a penny for "retirement" in CD/ IRA/401k/ mutual fund, index fund, etc etc

Compared to you I am an old man, almost 60. And from that older perspective I am going to agree with you. Take it now, for it might not be there later.

This philosophy does not exclude you from the personal responsibility to move with humility, kindness to both your fellow man and to your fellow species.

But it does provide you to move out of the cage and into the moment.

Always a good decision.

Those that are planning for their retirement will consider your position lacking in responsibility. They have not the courage.

[PEAKINT]

This is why I'm spending every penny I make and not saving a penny for "retirement" in CD/ IRA/401k/ mutual fund, index fund, etc etc

Compared to you I am an old man, almost 60. And from that older perspective I am going to agree with you. Take it now, for it might not be there later.

This philosophy does not exclude you from the personal responsibility to move with humility, kindness to both your fellow man and to your fellow species.

But it does provide you to move out of the cage and into the moment.

Always a good decision.

Those that are planning for their retirement will consider your position lacking in responsibility. They have not the courage.

Back in stone age there was no accumulation of wealth, in hunter and gatherer we consumed what we found, when we found it, if we were lucky enough to find it. That was it. There were no pyramid schemes and there was no overpopulation and no peak of anything.

Post agriculture, we stopped being nomadic, and with the ability to start fire, grow food, do calculations, etc the populous was freed to do other things and specialization of skills lead to trade, which was a necessity given that know we had pockets of surplus that could not be consumed at all once. So starts the ball rolling that lead to today.

Time value of money and "investment" is basically forgoing current resources/capital, putting it aside or reallocating it to other members of society so they can use it to do the "growing" on our behalf and in a perpetual every growing global society, your investment on average and in general typically gave you a good 'return' because by playing the pie game, your piece of the pie also grew along with and commensurate to roughly the global growth of the meta ponzi scheme at at large.

Now interest rates at zero and forever will remain at effectively zero (don't forget quantitative easing, gov printing money, dilution of savings, hidden theft of savers wealth and taxation without representation) and time value of money is in REVERSE. The longer you wait, the less you have.... because there is NO MORE GROWTH to be had, and everyone ELSE is going to spend it all.

Not to mention, even in static world, having $10000 at age 20 is NOT the same as $10000 at age $85. Having sex, taking vacation, even playing pc games is more enjoyable when you are young, healthy and able rather than old, crinkled and senile.

Even if money didn't lose value, it is better to enjoy when you are younger rather than older.


There was a time that one had to balance between the dilemma of saving and "investing" and the "time value of money" (when it was positive) to enjoying it when one was "older" alas that is no longer an issue at all!

Peak oil has made my decision so much easier. Something I've always felt instinctively was what I wanted to do anyway.

[Timo]

Ahem........I am 50, and am very busily trying to save for my retirement because i expect to live for another 30, or even 35 years. Maybe more. I do not expect our current retirement systems to last that long. Therefore, i need to save every last penny i can NOW, and not live today like there is no tomorrow. There will be a tomorrow. And a day after that. And a day after that. And a day after that, ad infinitum, or at least until the sun fries all life off this planet. I'm also trying to figure out how to actually earn some income after i retire, precisely becauswe i do not expect Social Security to be in place, and because my job's retirement plan may not be there, either. Therefore, everything that i will have access to in the future to suppport myself and my family is up to me to provide for myself, and that means planning ahead. If i had children, planning for the future would be even more important because i strongly believe that is it the responsibility of every generation to provide a healthier, better environment than we enjoy today for future generations. Living only for today is incredibly, inconcieveably selfish. ME FIRST!!!!! FU*K everyone else, and all future generations! I have the courage to deny the responsibilities for my conduct in the here and now!

Complete and utter bullshit!

[PEAKINT]

Ahem........I am 50, and am very busily trying to save for my retirement because i expect to live for another 30, or even 35 years. Maybe more. I do not expect our current retirement systems to last that long. Therefore, i need to save every last penny i can NOW, and not live today like there is no tomorrow. There will be a tomorrow. And a day after that. And a day after that. And a day after that, ad infinitum, or at least until the sun fries all life off this planet. I'm also trying to figure out how to actually earn some income after i retire, precisely becauswe i do not expect Social Security to be in place, and because my job's retirement plan may not be there, either. Therefore, everything that i will have access to in the future to suppport myself and my family is up to me to provide for myself, and that means planning ahead. If i had children, planning for the future would be even more important because i strongly believe that is it the responsibility of every generation to provide a healthier, better environment than we enjoy today for future generations. Living only for today is incredibly, inconcieveably selfish. ME FIRST!!!!! FU*K everyone else, and all future generations! I have the courage to deny the responsibilities for my conduct in the here and now!

Complete and utter bullshit!

I'm not a morning person, but I can be. When my alarm clock goes off at 7:45AM I'm tempted to hit the snooze button. Then again. Then one more time. Oh what the heck I've already done it twice, three times won't hurt. I end up torturing myself dragging myself slowly out of bed every morning when I do it this way.

When I set my alarm to 4:24AM and on loud, and I make it a point to immediately jump out of bed the moment it goes off, the morning starts off so much better. I don't fight it. I don't even feel sleepy because I don't have to urge to 'snooze' for "one more time". I take a cold shower, jump into the car, breeze through traffic in the early morning and get to work without distraction and can effectively get more things done before even noon arrives.

------

We all will die one day. No one lives "forever". Earth will be swallowed by the sun one day. The sun will die. The universe will die. All will pass.

In the very LONG run, it is ALL GONEZ.

What matters, the differences that make an effective difference, is the interim, intermediate and "in between" that counts.

Somewhere between our first breath and the moment we close our eyes for the last time is what we call life as we know it to be.

Look at the Jevon's paradox applied personally. The more people make the more they spend. This is why even super rich people are not immune to debt or money issues. This is just the way we are hardwired. Life expectancy used to be 35. Now it is closer to 75 or more. The more technology enables us to live longer the more we want to live even more longer ad infinitium this will never end. If we had technology to enable people to live to 200 and someone said hey I want to die at age 100, he would probably get prosecuted for a thoughtcrime or put on suicide watch in a society such as that.

Like the alarm clock analogy.... I choose to take control of my own life and say I will not keep hitting snooze. I will wake up at 424AM.

If I lived a good quality life, full of love, happiness, wonderment, then if I can live to the age of 65 that is "ENOUGH" for me. I'm happy, I'm content. I don't want and won't ask for any more. I won't beg to be kept alive to 105 or wish somehow I can get another 20 more years when I've already had a good 65.

As for retirement? officially the age keeps going up. Social stance will change, policy will change, laws will change. What is not acceptable today will become the norm someday. Why should society spend millions of dollars to keep an 85 year old person alive for another few weeks or few months when they've already had a long time by any measure and won't live that much longer anyway? it is just insane to me. I wouldn't want to be in that position myself.

For me, 'retirement' is meaningless.

[Timo]

You're young, and seemingly invincible. The future means nothing to you today. If you choose to be a feeble, destitute 65 year old that has no means of self support, yet you continue to keep on living, being a burden on others, well, good for you. You'll be someone else's problem to deal with. Or, in the alternative, you can just off yourself because you don't have any regrets, and nothing further to live for. Problem solved.

In the mean time, living for today, like there is no tomorrow, has formed our world the way we see it today. It is a fucking catastrophe.

Thank you very much.

[Scrub Puller]

Yair . . .

PEAKINT

What a clueless self centred fucking dickhead you are . . . I was about to paste a reply but Timo has said it all very eloquently so I'll let it go at that, sheesh. (shakes head in despair)

[ROCKMAN]

Timo - "...yet you continue to keep on living, being a burden on others...". I'm not sure that's a given. As we stumble down the PO path and if I were in my 20's I don't think I would assume society would eventually take care of me in my old age. And I'm not talking about SS or pensions. I don't think they would tie me to a tree for the wolves to feast upon. OTOH the vast majority of society at that future time (especially the younger ones) might not have any sympathy for the "needy". there's much in life beyond money that would see value preserved. I'm pretty sure that in 40 or 50 years if you ain't got "it'" very few that do have "it" are going to be willing to share "it".

[Pops]

Now, now, no need for insults.

When I was 20 I thought just the same, if I make it to 60 I'll be destitute anyway so why save?

I was right!

[Timo]

Timo - "...yet you continue to keep on living, being a burden on others...". I'm not sure that's a given. As we stumble down the PO path and if I were in my 20's I don't think I would assume society would eventually take care of me in my old age. And I'm not talking about SS or pensions. I don't think they would tie me to a tree for the wolves to feast upon. OTOH the vast majority of society at that future time (especially the younger ones) might not have any sympathy for the "needy". there's much in life beyond money that would see value preserved. I'm pretty sure that in 40 or 50 years if you ain't got "it'" very few that do have "it" are going to be willing to share "it".

Families, or paying for the care you require to stay alive. Both of those are outside the system of government provision. Either way, that person is someone else's burden, or responsibility, or business. That applies today, tomorrow, in 20 years, 30 years, 100 years.......... PO has zero to do with any of that.

Or, if as you suggest, millenials today just don't give a shit about taking care of anyone but themselves in 30 or 50 years, then certainly, overshoot will be the result. Survival of the fittest, or the richest who can pay for their own care. Massive die-off and misery for all.

As for myself i plan on developing the means to care for myself, and not be a burden to anyone else. That requires careful evaluation to the choices i make today about how i live my life. If that means that i lack courage to live for today, then whoever thinks that of me lacks courage to think of anyone but themselves.

[Timo]

Now, now, no need for insults.

When I was 20 I thought just the same, if I make it to 60 I'll be destitute anyway so why save?

I was right!

You're not dead yet!

[Quinny]

Anyone who has looked at annuity rates would probably have a lot of sympathy with the OP!

[Paulo1]

The arrogance of youth is remarkable.

When I was in my twenties my Dad had the 'chat' with me, but not what you would expect. I was always trying to get ahead while supporting the traditional family, etc. He said that it was about balance...that one had to live for today but also plan for a future, and that one did not trump the other.

Fast forward. I turn 60 this summer. I have been 'retired' for 3 years. I just spent the morning reading on the riverbank waiting for the tide to come up so I can winch a log out that is stuck under my dock. If I don't do this I will tangle up my fishing line on 15-30lbs+ salmon due to arrive in a few weeks.

I am retired with a home I built myself with my wife helping as an equal partner. We have full preps and a full larder + good health, etc. I retired at 57, simply because I built my own homes and never went into debt. My kids are 31 and 35 years old. They also have their own homes and work hard. I expect they will do well and they will also inherit all my land and possesions. It is a good feeling to know one's children are doing well, fulfilled, and have a future. Besides, work can be fun. It doesn't have to be a drudge experience. There is no finer experience than building something and being paid to do so.

It is the ant and grasshopper story, and it never changes. My oldest brother lived the grasshopper life like the twenty year old posters on this site. He is now 68, almost 69 years old. He has no money and very few retirement prospects. His siblings have stopped giving him money, euphemistically called "lending". He is fucked and it ain't pretty. We told him he will have to ask his kids for extra money from now on. So, for all you grasshoppers out there don't expect relatives to willingly help you out when your sugar coated life starts smelling tired and worn. Don't look for 'the system' to offer a lifeline either, as all debts come due for everyone, even countries. Just look at Greece and Argentina. Venezuala? (That sounds fun). It seems like a joke, now, but it isn't very nice to grow old living in poverty with declining health. No one will feel sorry for you and there may not be any help in the future. If you want practice and a wake up, try food banks. It doesn't look that great to me.

By the way, I am a workingman who went to school at nights (corespondence and later online) to earn a couple of degrees. When the studying was over I had my drinks and wine. We lived a good life along the way.

The word is responsibility. It is what men (adults) are taught.

[Plantagenet]

Why should society spend millions of dollars to keep an 85 year old person alive for another few weeks or few months when they've already had a long time by any measure and won't live that much longer anyway? it is just insane to me.

If US society didn't spend millions keeping an 85 year old person alive, then nurses would lose their jobs and doctors wouldn't be able to play golf and buy yachts, and hundreds of golf pros, yacht sellers, fairway trimmers andmowers and sand trap rakers, yacht painters and yacht electricians etc. wouldn't have jobs and they would all starve.

You should thank your lucky stars that 85 year old man is sick and getting medical treatment and the federal government gets taxpayers to put up millions to pay for it or a huge segment of the US economy would grind to a halt and the world economy would follow and tumble into a new depression

[cappinhook]

I think a lot people are missing Peakint point. I don't hear him asking for a handout at 65 and I believe he is taking a Nietzsche approach to life. That in the end of time it all ends up being pointless. I do find it somewhat funny that this website is basically about the eventual fall of our current society within most of our lifetimes. So why would someone prepare for retirement in world that would, I think some on this site would agree, be dramatically different. Old mantra's might no longer apply. Many people think there will be a dramatic die off. Feel Like he might just be hedging his bet on being one of the fallen. Then again, I could be way off base. Also, I find it funny that I have stalked this site and the oil drum for many years and this is the post that compels me to comment.

[PEAKINT]

Anyone who has looked at annuity rates would probably have a lot of sympathy with the OP!

No kidding! The real "investments" these days should be investments in yourself. I've realized what a waste it is to throw money into other people's pyramid schemes and in the ever shrinking societal cesspool (social security, obamacare, 401k, ira, annuities, "insurance", commodities, stock, bitcoins, etc etc) when at the end of the day what matters is experiences. Everything else, and I do mean everything else, are merely second order, third order or nth order means to an end.

Invest in yourself instead of in other people or other investment 'vehicles'.

Instead of thinking oh dude my company contributes matching 401k up to 10% let me put my paycheck towards that and forgo happiness in my youth just to hope that one day when its "Sunny and I'm 75" but I'm all old and wrinkly and there isn't any oil left underground for me to take a vacation I'll be happy with my hyperinflated US dollars... So what if it is 'tax deferral'? Anyone in their 20's or 30's ain't going to see a single penny of it anyway! Fools.

Invest in yourself if you are mid age like me at 30 or esp if you are younger. Learn how to play the piano, get a private pilots license, learn some skills that make you happy like photography, shooting, whatever floats your boat, intangible things that the government can't devalue, things that stick with you for the rest of your life....

Invest in experiences that yield high ROI of other experiences. We aren't talking about money here, but emotive experiences. Learning a skill like painting, photography, playing chess, piano, flying, skydiving, or falling in love, or making a friend, etc is an intrinsic enjoyment in and of itself (that often costs time/money) but the investment is worth it because the time/money spent means you achieve certain nueuro connections in your brain that enrich and broaden your totality of understanding of your surrounding environment and which deepens and strengthens and solidifies your ability to perceive and enjoy a even more alive, beautiful, profound and nuanced world and self. These are the sort of "assets" and soft "skills" that no government can tax or dilute or confiscate. Nor will there be a "run on the banks" on your own personal subjective individual abilities, capabilities and skills.

These are experiences that lead to opportunities and opens the door towards even more profound experiences. For example, instead of being a zombie and spending money watching IMAX movies, or wasting away in front of a TV set, go watch a real play, or participate and be a part of one and who knows you might encounter like minded people or make a friend or fall in love and all of that compounds and even more enriches your life and your ability to attract and build and accumulate such varieties and assortments and mosaics of experiences... To me that is the real definition of wealth. And one of my personal peak oil mitigation strategies.


Don't put your money and faith and hope in some government or corporation or cause or institution.

Invest (emotionally, monetarily) in experiences that will lead to other greater experiences.

In the end that is all that really counts, all we really have.

I'm like the dude on the Titanic shaking my head at all the people shuffling chairs around on the deck frantically, I know there aren't enough life boats and I probably won't be lucky enough to get on one. So I go back to the Titanic Library and proceed to get lost in my favorite romance novel until 2:21AM or when the lights go out.

[PEAKINT]

I think a lot people are missing Peakint point. I don't hear him asking for a handout at 65 and I believe he is taking a Nietzsche approach to life. That in the end of time it all ends up being pointless. I do find it somewhat funny that this website is basically about the eventual fall of our current society within most of our lifetimes. So why would someone prepare for retirement in world that would, I think some on this site would agree, be dramatically different. Old mantra's might no longer apply. Many people think there will be a dramatic die off. Feel Like he might just be hedging his bet on being one of the fallen. Then again, I could be way off base. Also, I find it funny that I have stalked this site and the oil drum for many years and this is the post that compels me to comment.

I don't hear him asking for a handout at 65

There wouldn't be one.

That in the end of time it all ends up being pointless.

I believe in making it count when it counts, not after the fact or too little too late.

So why would someone prepare for retirement in world that would

Why indeed? Also, why the HR guys positively despises me for opting out of everything? Maybe subconsciously he knows the gig is about to be up, and pissed that I'm not "all in like the rest of them" and feels I'm "not playing fair"?

Feel Like he might just be hedging his bet on being one of the fallen.

Peak oil or not, there is never a guarantee of tomorrow.

[Plantagenet]

I think a lot people are missing Peakint point. I don't hear him asking for a handout at 65

Thats because he isn't 65 yet.